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Elios, the "race" scenario is the only argument that they have left. And you're right, it doesn't work that way.

The reason that is not the way it works is because the opponent has been given explicit permission to execute an action. To not allow that action because you alone have moved on, is not only being TFG, but it is not allowing your opponent to make a move that he has been given permission to make. You're restricting him from using a rule he is allowed to use.

That, to me, is just flat out cheating.

Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.
Or do I not have to roll for it now? Or perils? Etc.

Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.

GW disagrees with you.

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

I didn't know you supported it until just now. And I couldn't care less about "winning" this argument. I don't play GK or Tyranids, so it doesn't even affect me. I'm not here to win - I'm here to get a better understanding of the rules so I can be a better player on the tabletop.

It is difficult to achieve that (a better understanding) when one side of the argument ignores blatant truths - such as CF being an attack. That makes it difficult to have a progressive conversation.

wow i didnt mean to start a huge discussion. I am just going to ask a TO because it is apparant that there isn't a clear cut answer, but from what I have read and hear from local players all that matters is what is written in the book and in this situation i believe the book favor hypnotic gazye.


Simply for the fact that my guys take wounds, what do i take wounds from, CF therefore I was attacked somehow, which HG is supposed to stop. Argue further if you like but I am going to stick with my reason and if you want to correct me then be my TO, otherwise I am just going to assuming you are either stupid or trying to gain an advantage.


Thank you for your input and good day.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.

GW disagrees with you.

Awesome. Since there's no rules surrounding them, you don't need to make a psychic test, take Perils, suffer against psychic defense, it doesn't count against powers per turn...

Disagree? Find a rule. It's a close combat attack remember, not a PCCA.

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

I didn't know you supported it until just now.

It's rare to put forward an argument you don't support.

And I couldn't care less about "winning" this argument. I don't play GK or Tyranids, so it doesn't even affect me. I'm not here to win - I'm here to get a better understanding of the rules so I can be a better player on the tabletop.

I play Nids. But thanks for insinuating I have a bias that is making me think the way I do.

It is difficult to achieve that (a better understanding) when one side of the argument ignores blatant truths - such as CF being an attack. That makes it difficult to have a progressive conversation.

I haven't ignored that. You're ignoring the implications of treating as an attack in all respects.
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.
If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

I have seen it happen in a GT, they happen at the same time, and by rules at the same initiative models killed can still attack. It was a GK champ vs Crowe, and Crowe had to take a I test because of the mines, he still was allowed to cast CF...saw it again with CF being cast by a knight of flame and the nid player Passes HG on the knight, trying to stop CF...because it counts as a CCA to count to combat result its not affected.

Its also would not block the Hero strike that crowe and the champ do when they die, still an attack but isnt blocked by HG.

rigeld2 wrote:
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power. It is also a close combat attack.

rigeld2 wrote:If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

So you're saying that the above answer is incorrect? Better let GW know.

So if Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack for all purposes, what Initiative does it go at?

Happyjew wrote:So if Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack for all purposes, what Initiative does it go at?

Before any "blows are struck".

Okay, enough of me answering questions. How about you, Happyjew?

Is CF not a close combat attack, even though what I posted above shows clearly that it is?

It's a close combat attack for the purposes of things like Dodge and Combat Resolution. Since both CF and HG both occur between Moving and Initiative 10, they must both occur at the same time.

Happyjew wrote:It's a close combat attack for the purposes of things like Dodge and Combat Resolution.

Can you point me to where it says that below, please?

Happyjew wrote:Since both CF and HG both occur between Moving and Initiative 10, they must both occur at the same time.

Sure. They could occur at the same time, if they were both attacks. Since one of them is not an attack, it is not governed by the rules of Cleansing Flame. Hypnotic Gaze is not a "blow being struck", so Cleansing Flame does not have to go at the same time or before HG. Unfortunately, Cleansing Flame is an attack, and therefore Hypnotic Gaze must go first, since it is used before any attacks.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power. It is also a close combat attack.

I see a rule saying it's a Close Combat attack. This changes it from being a Psychic power. I do not see a rule saying it's both.

rigeld2 wrote:If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

So you're saying that the above answer is incorrect? Better let GW know.

No, it's not incorrect. Your interpretation of it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:Unfortunately, Cleansing Flame is an attack, and therefore Hypnotic Gaze must go first, since it is used before any attacks.

You mean Hypnotic Gaze must be declared first, of course.
Since it's an optional ability, there's no requirement for it ever happen.

Elios Harg wrote:So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

Shrouding has no requirement to be cast at the start of the shooting phase. Try again, with an example that isnt just wrong

all i want to say is, look up the definition of "Ensuing", both happen in that "magic moment" and it only stop attacks after that "magic" phase that isnt governed in the rule book.

Here are the relative timings:
Edit: These are word for word quotations from the relevant psychic powers. I lengthened them a bit so that people actually understand this. Added parts italiceed
HG: "This psychic power is used during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made. If successful..." C:Tyranids pg 62
CF: "This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck." C:GK pg 31

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
HG: "If the Broodlord rolls equal to or higher than the targets's score, that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". C:Tyranids pg 62
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.
Edit: To be clear. HG cannot stop CF.


Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

Edit: Added the quotations fully as some people didn't seem to believe them otherwise.

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Elios Harg wrote:So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

Shrouding has no requirement to be cast at the start of the shooting phase. Try again, with an example that isnt just wrong

Ah, very well, I had it confused with Sanctuary, same logic applies though.

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

DK wrote:
That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

Actually, they were 100% word for word quotes on relevant parts of the rules. I added the irrelevant parts so you can be happy too, but please next time:
When you claim that paraphrasing instead of quoting, check it yourself before posting. It's just common courtesy to do so.

Edit: There's no reason to post those parts of the CF/GH rules that have no part in this discussion. For example the "this power cannot affect models that have no LD value" in GH.

Happyjew wrote:

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

you left out the word "ensuing" which is defined as (following subsequently or in order)...this whole thread is based on words and what means what and you left out a word that is used in the powers entry to describe how its used. That said it says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat" using the word as pushing "everything after" the power is used to not being able to attack...CF is activated the same time, and tho its a CCA, (like the argument about rending CF for Crowe) it dosen't wound like an attack, it creates wounds on a roll...In short its not an attack that can be stopped by HG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

DK wrote:
That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

Actually, they were 100% word for word quotes on relevant parts of the rules. I added the irrelevant parts so you can be happy too, but please next time:
When you claim that paraphrasing instead of quoting, check it yourself before posting. It's just common courtesy to do so.

Edit: There's no reason to post those parts of the CF/GH rules that have no part in this discussion. For example the "this power cannot affect models that have no LD value" in GH.

Maybe you should buy the codex since everyone is leaving out the word ensuing in the quote, im looking at it right now and it has the word ensuing in the HG entry.

Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

DK wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

you left out the word "ensuing" which is defined as (following subsequently or in order)... his whole thread is based on words and what means what and you left out a word that is used in the powers entry to describe how its used.

You mean the ensuing that I underlined / bolded that was part of the original post. I'm afraid you really, really need to read my posts before replying to them.

DK wrote:
That said it says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat" using the word as pushing "everything after" the power is used to not being able to attack...CF is activated the same time, and tho its a CCA, (like the argument about rending CF for Crowe) it dosen't wound like an attack, it creates wounds on a roll...In short its not an attack that can be stopped by HG.

Yes. I agree, CF cannot stop HG. That was the whole point of

Luide wrote:Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Luide

I wasnt arguing vs you, i was referring to your first description of HG, then stating the missed word describes that the effect most of the people in this thread are pushing to get to is not how it is defined. My bad if you felt i was attacking your post.

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Attack.

Good...now read the part where the first attack it can block is in the "ensuing combat" not stated as same phase, but the following.

@ the Dakka Mods.
It is really hard not to insult people in this forum, its like fishing in a fish tank with an AA12 full of frag rounds.

We should be allowed to start a trash talk thread, dont come in if its going to hurt your feeling.

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Attack.

Good...now read the part where the first attack it can block is in the "ensuing combat" not stated as same phase, but the following.

@ the Dakka Mods.
It is really hard not to insult people in this forum, its like fishing in a fish tank with an AA12 full of frag rounds.

We should be allowed to start a trash talk thread, dont come in if its going to hurt your feeling.

Cleansing Flame does not happen "before the ensuing combat", only "before blows have been struck" therefore it is still part of "the ensuing combat".

Sorry, that one doesn't work. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

- Trash talk - because nobody cares about your ego, insults, or whatever other petty way you make yourself feel smarter or better than the other poster.

@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

DK wrote:@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

Where do you get these two happen at the same time?

1) Before the ensuing combat.
2) Before blows are struck

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that happens before blows are struck.

It's still part of the combat.

Does this sound like they count as happening at the same time? CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

It can't be much clearer, Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

You, my friend, have a lot of posts.