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nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

I think the issue is that it is the squad that is using the power.
Friendly answer
So i'm assuming a little here (bear with me ) it modifies how the unit engages on combat (meaning instead of hitting and wounding you do all that 4+ stuff) . Hypnotic gaze only effects a single model.

now if there were 3 brood lords and three grey knights and they all succumbed to hypnotic gaze, then i think the power should not go off. is that how rules as written expresses it, not quite.


Now for a Lawer-ed out version
The other deciding factors for me are:
1. is cleansing flame a psychic close combat attack.
2. in the rule book does it clarify the I step that comes before I10 (which is what is happening here)
3. Do you really feel like being a jerk

If one is true and the power is treated from originating from one model, then yes it stops. because sure you got the effect off and that effect lets you make a close combat attack. You were hit with a power that stops you from making close combat attacks. it has been countered, like it or not.

Now if it is not treated as originating from one model but from the unit the whole unit can not be disabled unless you have a lot of brood lords and even then im still not so sure (I would rule it goes off as a 'nid player)

if 1 is untrue and it is NOT a psychic close combat attack then there is NO chance that the brood lord can stop it.

if someone could chime in with 2. I would be much obliged.

3. hypnotic gaze is great and all but you can not expect it to stop a whole units worth of attacks, in my view any TO would not interpret that as rules as intended, and that is their job to take the rules as written and decide intention.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

Where do you get these two happen at the same time?

1) Before the ensuing combat.
2) Before blows are struck

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that happens before blows are struck.

It's still part of the combat.

Does this sound like they count as happening at the same time? CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

It can't be much clearer, Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

You have to be kidding me right?...stop using diffrent parts of the argument in the wrong places...

Ok break down, they happen before I order attacks, after moves have been done, thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Now, when HG passes it stops attacks, which is defined in the rule book as S vs T attacks, CF does not roll for that, also its both cast in the same "magic" phase...but by def HG only stop attacks in the ensuing combat...guess what...thats two reasons why Crowe would take like half that Gene assault and flush them into the Emperors debt that all filthy Xenos owe to him. Read your posts and try to make sense in your head using words real definition.

Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Yes, I wrote "I believe". You see, in threads such as this one, we are all stating our beliefs and opinions regarding rules. To put it another way - this is what the rules state.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack

It happens before blows have been struck, and causes wounds that count as being caused by a close combat attack.
Hypnotic Gaze prevents the brotherhood psyker from attacking.

Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

DK wrote:Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

Have a look at a dictionary or maybe take some English lessons. I can't really help you learn the difference between an ability and an attack.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

Is this an actual quote from Cleansing Flame? I am not near my codices.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

It kinda does because if the knight of flame is dead you wont be able to block the Purifier that casts CF, because if it was me i would pull it from the back, away from BtB

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

It really does - HG specifies a single model. Purifiers cast as a unit.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

Is this an actual quote from Cleansing Flame? I am not near my codices.

Sorry, the actual wording "Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

Have a look at a dictionary or maybe take some English lessons. I can't really help you learn the difference between an ability and an attack.

You do know this is trolling right?...you are unable to answer my question because within the rules its not what you said it was, therefor your whole argument is something you have made up since you make a claim but cannot show the support for it. If your not just blowing smoke then where is it written what you have claimed to be fact?

Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.

I think this is a step towards resolution.

These go off at the same time, as they have exactly the same wording. (just re read HG)

I cast my vote that if ONE MODEL tried to use it it fails, as that one model is effectively disabled for that assault phase.

While if MORE THAN ONE MODEL is giving up it's attacks to use cleansing flame (or if they are applied in addition to their attacks ) then I would rule that it goes off (though if it applied in addition to normal attacks, the model that has been hit my hypnotic gaze is still losing its close combat attacks)

I think that is the fairest possible way to handle it.

It makes perfect logical sense that if one model is being disabled in combat for a round (rules as intended, and good sportsmanship) then that one model should not be able to lawyer their way into making close combat attacks.

While if it is a unit I see no reason (rules as intended, and good sportsmanship) that a power that effects only one model should stop a whole squad from using a power as they are all channeling it, not just the lone model who is being stupefied.

This is my opinion, feel free to argue but I will maintain this is the fairest way to call it.

To put it another way,

unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for the purpose of being prevented by Hypnotic Gaze.

Thrawn - nobody is giving up attacks. Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that is done before any models perform their normal attacks.

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.

Or, it means that both HG and CF are a part of the close combat.

By rigeld2's definition though, I can simply start rolling my attacks without letting you roll Cleansing Flame anyway, since it is optional. So I guess all this is moot. In fact, by that definition, you cannot make any reactive moves, unless your opponent lets you.

Luide wrote:GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

This 100%

The model may not attack in the ensuing combat.

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.

Or, it means that both HG and CF are a part of the close combat.

By rigeld2's definition though, I can simply start rolling my attacks without letting you roll Cleansing Flame anyway, since it is optional. So I guess all this is moot. In fact, by that definition, you cannot make any reactive moves, unless your opponent lets you.

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

DK wrote:

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

Hey, don't tell me. I agree with you. Tell rigeld2 and nosferatu1001. Those were their words.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

...without attacking you personally...answer this...isnt "defenders react" a move?...answer your own question.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

DeathReaper wrote:
Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Which is a part of the "close combat" step of the Assault Phase. Unless you have another point in time that is defined somewhere in the rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

...without attacking you personally...answer this...isnt "defenders react" a move?...answer your own question.

It was rhetorical.

Here is a wrench to throw in, if a broodlord is hit and fails a 6 result for the psychotroke nad, can he be forced to cast HG on a gene model? or if a gene model fails and is BtB with the Broodlord, can he stop his own unit from hitting its self?

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Which is a part of the "close combat" step of the Assault Phase. Unless you have another point in time that is defined somewhere in the rules?

The wording on both CF and HG tell us when it goes off, after moves but before any attacks. This is a specific point in time.

HG only effects the ENSUING combat (The ensuing combat is the strikes at Initiative order.)

Not sure what you are getting at with your "part of the "close combat" step" part. this does not matter, as HG and CF are used simultaneously.

Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Just pointing out, this is inaccurate. CF does not occur before the ensuing combat. Precisely this is not the wording nor is it even suggested in the rule. The phrase "before blows are struck" does not exclude CF from happening during combat.

DK wrote:Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

Have you not read the thread?