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Necroshea wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:

Necroshea wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:Why waste time on crap like this?
Get a gym membership card, do basic low rep exercises, eat, sleep and STICK to it.

Not some overated crap you stick with for a week.

Just like everyone who gets a gym membership sticks with it right?

Of course not, but starting in a gym with either a good PT or knowledgeable friend that can read you and your capabilites will work way better then some stupid workout program. I can tell you now its a waste of money.
And with your goal in mind, not very effective.

Sorry, but I'm not about to fork over no small sum of cash for a PT, and I think it's safe to say not everyone knows someone who knows their way around bodybuilding. I do p90x. It's cheap, It works, and I've seen the results that prove it.

Couple things.

Most people know absolutely nothing about bodybuilding or strength training including PTs. If you're interested in either one of those it is best to build strength to a decent level first and then focus hypertrophy. What most people do not understand is that you have to bulk up to yield relatively quick strength and hypertrophy gains and then do a cutting phase to get back down to your desired BF%.

If you like P90x then by all means keep doing it, but there are better ways to build strength and muscle. Most importantly, diet is the key to gaining or losing weight. You can work out all you want, but you will not get the results you want without a good diet.

Necroshea wrote:Sorry, but I'm not about to fork over no small sum of cash for a PT, and I think it's safe to say not everyone knows someone who knows their way around bodybuilding. I do p90x. It's cheap, It works, and I've seen the results that prove it.

I dont know how gyms are over there, but at least i got some free PT hours, not that i used them.


Researching some exercises and a making a simple schedule is way more effective. How did you "do" it if you failed? You wont gain muscle/strenght with some periodic training.

Coolyo294 wrote:Why waste times with gyms or P90x when you can just buy some bull shark testosterone direct from Chile?

Funny that you mention that, but yeah in the long run it'd almost be easier to just buy cycles of Test-E or Test Prop; I know they've done studies that you gain more muscle while taking anabolics than you do training naturally. Go figure.

I did Stronglifts 5x5 as a beginner at age 21(male) 5'10 and 160lbs, everything started with just the bar. One year later I was 200lbs and squatting 270(to parallel) Deadlifting 325, Over head press 110, Bench press 160, Barbell rows 120(had been doing horizontal pull ups with weight but recently switched to these, still was working on form) Everything but deadlifts is 5x5(DL were 1x5) And this is with fall off and on the horse for weeks on end, so rather than a years time, if I never stopped it'd only have been 5 months

Melissia wrote:

Necroshea wrote:For those who don't know, p90x is

An experimental version of this weapon!

The muzzle looks ALOT like any heavier assault rifle!. I need an information on an ammunition used for it meow.

Necroshea wrote:So who here has done it? I've gone back and forth, never really spent more than a week doing it (changing sleeping locations really messes up my rhythm). However, I intend to put more dedication into it this month, and see where it gets me.

For those who don't know, p90x is a workout program that practically guarantees results in 90 days. Only thing is it's pretty damn hard to keep up with, but that's what makes me love it. None of that soft stuff, when I want to workout I want to feel like I dove into a grinder, and p90x delivers.

Also, Tony is an arse.

Day 63 here. I've missed a few days here and there from travel and when I had the flu.

Stamina and general fitness was the main reason I'm using the program, and that's exactly what I'm getting. I'm not looking to bulk up, nor am I looking for strength training. As an asside, I'm very impressed with your numbers, Amaya.

I've combined it with running 3 days a week. I had alread changed my diet up last year and shed down to my target weight (170#). I've now burned off a decent amount of additional fat and replaced it with muscle, keeping at about the 170# mark and dropping 2" off my waisteline.

Just like anything else (Gym, other programs, running, whatever), you get out what you put into it.

Not everyone wants or has time to put hours in to reserching the optimum work out and diet routine for themselves. Not everyone has the $$$ for a PT of questionable knowledge. P90X is a bit gimicky. But it's also very straight forward. A plug and play routine, if you will. The fact that you're doing something is putting you above average Necroshea. Keep it up, man.

kronk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:So who here has done it? I've gone back and forth, never really spent more than a week doing it (changing sleeping locations really messes up my rhythm). However, I intend to put more dedication into it this month, and see where it gets me.

For those who don't know, p90x is a workout program that practically guarantees results in 90 days. Only thing is it's pretty damn hard to keep up with, but that's what makes me love it. None of that soft stuff, when I want to workout I want to feel like I dove into a grinder, and p90x delivers.

Also, Tony is an arse.

Day 63 here. I've missed a few days here and there from travel and when I had the flu.

Stamina and general fitness was the main reason I'm using the program, and that's exactly what I'm getting. I'm not looking to bulk up, nor am I looking for strength training. As an asside, I'm very impressed with your numbers, Amaya.

I've combined it with running 3 days a week. I had alread changed my diet up last year and shed down to my target weight (170#). I've now burned off a decent amount of additional fat and replaced it with muscle, keeping at about the 170# mark and dropping 2" off my waisteline.

Just like anything else (Gym, other programs, running, whatever), you get out what you put into it.

Not everyone wants or has time to put hours in to reserching the optimum work out and diet routine for themselves. Not everyone has the $$$ for a PT of questionable knowledge. P90X is a bit gimicky. But it's also very straight forward. A plug and play routine, if you will. The fact that you're doing something is putting you above average Necroshea. Keep it up, man.

So far so good this week. Monday destroyed my arms, but that's fine by me. Had a cramp early on in plyo, and ever afterwards the burn and ache is simply not there. Must have not worked hard enough! Still I'm pushing myself, and the feeling is quite exhilarating. I've even found a way to go home and come back while sticking to the schedule, and I intend to give that a go this weekend.

Also, what have you done about Thursday Yoga? Most people hate it, and I'd like to replace it with something, at least for now. Cardio X mayhaps?

Doing Yoga correctly will help greatly with your flexibility and a more flexible muscle is a stronger muscle.

Amaya wrote:Doing Yoga correctly will help greatly with your flexibility and a more flexible muscle is a stronger muscle.

Oh yeah, I don't doubt what it can do, but like I said in an earlier post I'm terribly unflexible right now, so I need to make baby steps into it before I do yoga X. Otherwise if I try I feel like I'm hurting myself, or not really getting much out of it.

Necroshea wrote:

Amaya wrote:Doing Yoga correctly will help greatly with your flexibility and a more flexible muscle is a stronger muscle.

Oh yeah, I don't doubt what it can do, but like I said in an earlier post I'm terribly unflexible right now, so I need to make baby steps into it before I do yoga X. Otherwise if I try I feel like I'm hurting myself, or not really getting much out of it.

I did horrible with the Yoga the first time. It got a little better. I'm still a little shaky with my balance.

Don't skip it, though. Just do as much as you can. You'll see the results as Amaya described. If you feel you must skip it, CardioX is probably a good replacement.

Even if you don't want to do Yoga at a minimum you should warm up and stretch all the muscles that you'll be using before and after the workout.

Amaya wrote:Even if you don't want to do Yoga at a minimum you should warm up and stretch all the muscles that you'll be using before and after the workout.

The warm-up and cool downs on the P90X videos are pretty good.

kronk wrote:

Amaya wrote:Even if you don't want to do Yoga at a minimum you should warm up and stretch all the muscles that you'll be using before and after the workout.

The warm-up and cool downs on the P90X videos are pretty good.

Indeed, the pot stirrer really helps for me when I feel the lactic acid start to build up, I love that feel of getting rid of it.

I did Ab-Ripper X for physical training class three times a week.

HATED IT, but I did have a pretty tight core, which is the only part of my body I even care about, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lone Cat wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Necroshea wrote:For those who don't know, p90x is

An experimental version of this weapon!

The muzzle looks ALOT like any heavier assault rifle!. I need an information on an ammunition used for it meow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90

Shoots 5.7x28 MM

You might have a hard time getting one though. All FN Hernstal Weapons cost an arm and a leg.

Stretching before and after training neither prevents injury or helps with recovery.

Nice supporting evidence. If you're going to contradict a well known 'fact' you need something more than your own word to back it up.

Just go to a gym, P90x isn't any more functional than a fad diet. I've been going to the gym regularly and have gained significant muscle in the last six months while my friends doing P90-x look exactly the same. I'm sure doing a lot of home cardio and light resistance exercise can work, but it'll require far more persistence than you think and the gains won't be what's advertised.

ShumaGorath wrote:Just go to a gym, P90x isn't any more functional than a fad diet. I've been going to the gym regularly and have gained significant muscle in the last six months while my friends doing P90-x look exactly the same. I'm sure doing a lot of home cardio and light resistance exercise can work, but it'll require far more persistence than you think and the gains won't be what's advertised.

Yeah, definitely this. Home cardio and light resistance works if you want to look "fit", aka you don't look like you can lift, but hey, you can do 50 pushups!

Amaya wrote:Nice supporting evidence. If you're going to contradict a well known 'fact' you need something more than your own word to back it up.

Well i didint really want to spam the thread. But here as some random studies i have picked up.

Cryotherapy, stretching, homeopathy, ultrasound and electrical current modalities have demonstrated no effect on the alleviation of muscle soreness or other DOMS symptoms."

Sports Med. 2003;33(2):145-64.

"Other conventional approaches, such as massage, ultrasound, and stretching appear less promising."

J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):197-208.

"Stretching before or after exercising does not confer protection from muscle soreness."

BMJ. 2002 Aug 31;325(7362):468.

"It is concluded that passive stretching did not have any significant influence on increased plasma-CK, muscle pain, muscle strength and the PCr/P(i) ratio, indicating that passive stretching after eccentric exercise cannot prevent secondary pathological alterations."

Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1998 Aug;8(4):216-21.

"The exercise bout produced severe DOMS, with parameters peaking and troughing at 48 h postexercise. However, no significant differences were found, regarding any of the parameters, when comparing stretched and nonstretched legs"

Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1999 Aug;9(4):219-25.

"We concluded that static stretching and/or warm-up does not prevent DOMS resulting from exhaustive exercise."

Res Q Exerc Sport. 1989 Dec;60(4):357-61.


"A typical muscle stretching protocol performed during preexercise warm-ups does not produce clinically meaningful reductions in risk of exercise-related injury"

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Feb;32(2):271-7.

"The present study thus suggests that preexercise static stretching has no preventive effect on the muscular soreness, tenderness and force loss that follows heavy eccentric exercise."

Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1999 Aug;9(4):219-25.

"In contrast, since 1990, there's evidence suggesting that stretching not only does not prevent injuries, but can also decrease the level of performance. Some part of these contradictions can be explained by the various sports activities. Those requesting an increased flexibility, such as gymnastic, dancing or diving, necessitate pre-exercise stretching to optimize the level of performance. In contrary, for sports with slow stretch-shortening cycle such as jogging or cycling, there is no scientific data showing a positive effect of stretching."

Rev Med Suisse. 2005 Jul 27;1(28):1830-4.

"The purpose of this study was to examine the acute effects of static stretching on peak torque (PT), the joint angle at PT, mean power output (MP), electromyographic (EMG) amplitude, and mechanomyographic (MMG) amplitude of the vastus lateralis (VL) and rectus femoris (RF) muscles during maximal, voluntary concentric isokinetic leg extensions at 60 and 240 degrees x s(-1) of the stretched and unstretched limbs.

Following the initial isokinetic tests, the dominant leg extensors were stretched using four static stretching exercises. After the stretching, the isokinetic tests were repeated. PT decreased (P< or =0.05) from pre- to post-stretching for the stretched limb at 60 and 240 degrees x s(-1) and for the unstretched limb at 60 degrees x s(-1). EMG amplitude of the VL and RF also decreased (P< or =0.05) from pre- to post-stretching for the stretched and unstretched limbs.

The decreases in PT and EMG amplitude for the unstretched limb suggested that the stretching-induced decreases may be due to a central nervous system inhibitory mechanism."

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 Mar;93(5-6):530-9. The acute effects of static stretching on peak torque, mean power output, electromyography, and mechanomyography.

"The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of static stretching on concentric, isokinetic leg extension peak torque (PT) at 60 and 240 degrees.s(-1) in the stretched and unstretched limbs. The PT of the dominant (stretched) and nondominant (unstretched) leg extensors were measured on a calibrated Cybex 6000 dynamometer. Following the prestretching PT assessments, the dominant leg extensors were stretched using 1 active and 3 passive stretching exercises. After the stretching, PT was reassessed. The results of the statistical analyses indicated that PT decreased following the static stretching in both limbs and at both velocities (60 and 240 degrees.s(-1))."

J Strength Cond Res. 2004 May;18(2):236-41. Acute effects of static stretching on peak torque in women.


Results indicate that a single bout of maximal stretch does not significantly elevate fractional muscle protein synthetic rate in humans and thus suggests that muscle stretch per se is not the stimulus for the muscle hypertrophy that occurs with resistance training."

Can J Appl Physiol. 2000 Jun;25(3):165-80.

"Stretching a muscle 24 h•d-1 for 5-7 d results in stretch-induced hypertrophy" - men hur efterliknar man en veckas kontinuerlig stretch i praktiken annat än i djurförsök? Ref: Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: Volume 36(10) October 2004 p 1832.


Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Mar;36(3):371-8.

Clin J Sport Med. 2005 Mar;15(2):113.

J Strength Cond Res. 2005 May;19(2):338-43.

"There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine stretching before or after exercise to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes."

"The practical implication of our findings is that clinicians should be aware that prescribing... stretching following intense eccentric or unaccustomed exercise will not enhance the recovery."

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2004 Oct;93(1-2):30-8. Epub 2004 Jun 17.

"Stretching before or after exercising does not confer protection from muscle soreness."

BMJ. 2002 Aug 31;325(7362):468.

Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

Amaya wrote:Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

Or the increase/reduced-decrease in flexibility.

There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine stretching before or after exercise to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes.

It's also kind of a crappy study.

Amaya wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Amaya wrote:Why would you recommend hypertrophy training when he wants to gain strength.

Starting Strength doesn't build rear delts because it doesn't hit the back very well outside of deadlifts. That's why I prefer Stronglift's programming with Pendlay Rows.

He said he wanted to "build up", so I considered that to be in the realm of hypertrophy. You won't get that with SS or P90X.

Just looked up Stronglifts, it seems good for a Strength routine. Personally I do a bodybuilding split so I can't really comment too much on it but it looks fairly solid. I'm interested in seeing how beginners could handle 5x5 though.

I had never done deadlifts, squats, rows, or overhead press before doing stronglifts and I made the following gains:

Deadlift 275x to 335x5
Squats 135x5 (probably could've done more, but I wanted to start with a safe weight) to 295x5 Olympic style, 315x5 powerlifting style
Rows 115x5 to 180x5
Overhead Press 115x5 to 145x5
Bench Press 215x5 to 260x5

It took about 4.5 months to make those gains. My lat pull down also went from 180 for 10 to 300 for 10 and I actually can do more chin ups and pullups (about 25 full ROM) despite gaining about 25lbs (5-8 muscle, rest probably fat).

You start light on everything and build your way up. If you've done any weightlifting you can probably bench more than you squat when you start, but it won't take long for your squat to shoot up past your bench.

If you start with just the bar you'll be at a 305 squat, 305 deadlift, and 175 bench within a year, which isn't bad for a beginner with only a year of training. Anyone with prior athletic training should be at 375-405 squat and 405+ deadlift within a year if you eat right and get plenty of sleep.

Strong E-stats. Pics?

Aside from my mediocre bench, those are not strong stats for any lifter, but I will be doing video records this summer. Hopefully my new regimen will get my vertical back up to where I can dunk and if so I'll have a video of that as well.

Amaya wrote:Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

It pretty much refered to everything i claimed, since i said nothing about strenght benefits.
But you bring it up so here is the part about it.

"Results indicate that a single bout of maximal stretch does not significantly elevate fractional muscle protein synthetic rate in humans and thus suggests that muscle stretch per se is not the stimulus for the muscle hypertrophy that occurs with resistance training"

There is no proof of strenght benefits, there are however some evidence suggesting preformance loss.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Amaya wrote:Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

Or the increase/reduced-decrease in flexibility.

There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine stretching before or after exercise to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes.

It's also kind of a crappy study.

One line, from one part, you arent trying hard enough. There is plenty of other information.

Bla_Ze wrote:Stretching before and after training neither prevents injury or helps with recovery.

Man, what.

Is this opposite day or something? I never do anything strenuous without stretching, especially running and cardio stuff.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:Stretching before and after training neither prevents injury or helps with recovery.

Man, what.

Is this opposite day or something? I never do anything strenuous without stretching, especially running and cardio stuff.

There is noting bad with stretching in general, especially if you have hip/lower back problems or simply want to be more flexible.

Bla_Ze has it right. Though all sorts of badly trained trainers, coaches, and instructors still have people stretch before working out, there's no evidence that stretching before a workout reduces injuries or enhances performance, and there is some evidence that it may increase the risk of injuries.

Stretching per se is awesome, particularly for anyone over 30 or so. Arguably it's one of the most important things to do for fitness for the over-30s. But do it on your rest days, or at least wait 4+ hours after your workout if you want to do it in on workout days.

Yoga, foam rolling, and tai chi are other good stretchy activities that willl offer many of the same benefits.

To the OP, depending on your martial art, you may well find that just doing more of the martial art is the best way to improve. Certainly for full-blown combat sports, like judo, BJJ, boxing, Thai boxing, etc., you need a stack of training like you'll fight, just to build up the sport-specific endurance you'll need for going almost all-out for 2 or 3 minutes at a time. That said, the big compound lifts help enormously too. They build incredibly strong abs, vital for taking a punch in boxing / Thai boxing. They also help enormously with explosive lifting strength, which you'll use for throws in the more grappling-oriented arts.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Amaya wrote:Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

It pretty much refered to everything i claimed, since i said nothing about strenght benefits.
But you bring it up so here is the part about it.

"Results indicate that a single bout of maximal stretch does not significantly elevate fractional muscle protein synthetic rate in humans and thus suggests that muscle stretch per se is not the stimulus for the muscle hypertrophy that occurs with resistance training"

There is no proof of strenght benefits, there are however some evidence suggesting preformance loss.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Amaya wrote:Pretty much all of that is in reference to soreness, not strength benefits.

Or the increase/reduced-decrease in flexibility.

There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine stretching before or after exercise to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes.

It's also kind of a crappy study.

One line, from one part, you arent trying hard enough. There is plenty of other information.

But not enough for them to make reccomendations on, and thus not enough for you to do the same.

ShumaGorath wrote:But not enough for them to make reccomendations on, and thus not enough for you to do the same.

Are you implying i couldnt be lying?

And to be a bit more serious, the non existing evidence was of one part of the study. And was the first thing i ran across, there are definitely more studies about this subject and i have read a bit of it before.
Anyway im not here to educate you, find it, read it and form your own opinion, its the only way.

Wells, I ended up missing Yoga without even meaning to. Got off work late, and was washing clothes at a friends place late into the night. I supposed I can just make it my rest day and do cardio or stretches on sunday.