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Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Agreed, but a full-on Crusade into Tau space would be one of the biggest bloodbaths in Imperial history. The Imperium can and will steamroller the Tau, regardless of their technological superiority. Thing is, the troops (both Guard and Astartes among others) and ships needed to fight that Crusade are needed elsewhere, against Tyranids mostly, but also against Orks and Necrons.

And it's not like the Tau are having things their way either. A few Hive Fleets have invaded Tau space recently, and while they've been repelled, they're under no illusion what would happen if either the Imperium, the Orks, and the Tyranids turned their full attention on them. The first is unlikely. The second is already happening - see the War of Dakka. And it's only a matter of time before a genestealer cult draws a major fleet into Tau space.

No ones saying that it wouldn't be costly, nor that the Tau don't have their own issues. Every race has some kind of cack going on, somewhere.

The only good Xenos is a dead Xenos, unless they can be bought to heel and dominated.

A rare circumstance...the only one I know of is the Jokaero, and only because they can make unique technology not seen anywhere else in the galaxy, although their sentience is still hotly-debated in the Ordo Xenos. Apart from them, I can't remember any other non-Human Imperial subject races.

Well, the point with Jokaero is also that they don't seem to have any ulterior motives, being pretty much base animals who happen to have an instinctual knowledge of tech.

Tadashi wrote:
A rare circumstance...the only one I know of is the Jokaero, and only because they can make unique technology not seen anywhere else in the galaxy, although their sentience is still hotly-debated in the Ordo Xenos. Apart from them, I can't remember any other non-Human Imperial subject races.

Exactly my point, they seem to be the only race to have been allowed to join the Imperium. Any Xenos that was encountered during the Great Crusade was killed, as far as we know, and even Human Empires were nearly destroyed when they couldn't be bought to the Imperiums way of thinking. If they do that to their own, their isn't much hope for anything else.

I think it's Horus Aximand that says something along the lines of they haven't met a friendly Xenos race on all of their travels in Horus Rising.

Yes.

Otherwise the Great Crusade would be replaced with the Great ol' Galactic Convoy.

Soladrin wrote:Well, the point with Jokaero is also that they don't seem to have any ulterior motives, being pretty much base animals who happen to have an instinctual knowledge of tech.

Just like the Orks then, whose Meks have the ability to 'orkify' pretty much everything they can get their hands on built into their DNA. Which begs the question, are the Jokaero prototypes or parallel to the Orks?

Nah, orks also have an instinct for pure war.

Though, were Jokaero also made by the old ones? And if so, who was made first? Krork or Jokaero?

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor stabs the Black Library's Infinity Circuit (or it's equivalent) and unleashes His full power...BANG! There goes the Sentinels...

I do not believe the Black Library has its own Infinity Circuit as it exists soully within the webway. And the only notion of the Sentinels comes from their tiny inclusion in the Eldar Codex, but I can gander a guess that they're not push overs, even with the clout of the Emperor.

I doubt Magnus would be alone working on the Black Library...the Emperor's going to be there helping him...or, more likely, while Magnus is out conquering, repairing and expanding the Webway (with Khan hunting DE across the ruins of Commoragh) the Emperor is 'filtering' the Black Library for what's safe to give to Magnus and what to burn.

Wishful thinking to the extreme.

And if the Chaos Powers fear the Emperor, why wouldn't Cegorach fear Him either? Cegorach may have escaped Slaanesh, but he can barely confront the latter whenever he tries to save a Solitaire's soul.

Because the Laughing God outplayed Slaneesh, why would a Mortal Upstart concern him? There are more ways to deal with such 'Immortal' creatures than brute force. And the Solitare sacrifices his soul to Slaneesh in order to perform the Dance of the Fall of the Eldar, to remind the Eldar Race of what they've lost. There's no reason for the Laughing God to intercede on such a valuable lesson.

And the Emperor would have no reason to save Isha. Best to let her die in the Garden as the Imperial Truth starves Chaos into partial-stability; less trouble from the Eldar. And even if it would take a while to replace the Eldar, the Legions can simply burn the Craftworlds when the time comes.

Being able to whisper the cures of Nurgles diseases to the Mortals of the Universe is not a reason? And how powerful would a God be as an distal ally to the Imperium against Chaos?

A simultaneous attack through the Webway with a full Expeditionary Fleet against Commoragh, the Craftworlds, and the Black Library would destroy majority of the Eldar species in one devastating stroke.

Severe wishful thinking. If the Necrontyr and the Ctan could not vanquish the Eldar, what makes you think some Psuedo-Mortal Emperor could?

Soladrin wrote:Nah, orks also have an instinct for pure war.

Though, were Jokaero also made by the old ones? And if so, who was made first? Krork or Jokaero?

Creations include: Eldar, Orks, Jokaero, Ancestral Humans, as far as I know...

I think they were made at the same time, after the Eldar but before the ancestral Humans. If we follow the old thinking that Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 are linked, then Humans would be the last, incomplete creation of the Old Ones. If we don't use that, then we can turn to the oldcron Codex which implied that the last creations of the Old Ones - ape-like creatures on Terra - were touched by the C'tan to carry the Untouchable gene. The new Codex removes the Pariahs, but the part about the Old Ones wasn't reconned, merely 'unmentioned'. Considering that the Culexus are still valid, then the it's probably still canon, except for the part about C'tan interference.

Tadashi wrote: Considering that the Culexus are still valid, then the it's probably still canon, except for the part about C'tan interference.

Could still happen I guess, just before they went all splintery.

KplKeegan wrote:
Because the Laughing God outplayed Slaneesh, why would a Mortal Upstart concern him? There are more ways to deal with such 'Immortal' creatures than brute force. And the Solitare sacrifices his soul to Slaneesh in order to perform the Dance of the Fall of the Eldar, to remind the Eldar Race of what they've lost. There's no reason for the Laughing God to intercede on such a valuable lesson.

A 'mortal upstart' whose potential caused the Powers to actually unite as one. A being who could potentially be planning to 'purify' Chaos and use it to ascend not just himself, but also all Mankind.

Being able to whisper the cures of Nurgles diseases to the Mortals of the Universe is not a reason? And how powerful would a God be as an distal ally to the Imperium against Chaos?

She only whispers cures to Eldar, she has no reason to help Humans. And if the Emperor was planning to 'purify' Chaos, why would He need her?

Severe wishful thinking. If the Necrontyr and the Ctan could not vanquish the Eldar, what makes you think some Psuedo-Mortal Emperor could?

Because the Eldar are dying out? They are a shadow of what they once were? And without the Heresy, Mankind was progressing to a point where it was slowly starting to surpass even the fabled Golden Age of Technology when only the Eldar's psychic power kept Mankind from surpassing them? The Legio Astartes, the greatest warriors the galaxy has ever seen?

Mankind encountered the Orks and Eldar during the Dark Age of Technology, long before the Imperium. It's known that we've been at war with Orks for "tens of thousands of years", though unknown how we got along with the Eldar during this time.

During the Great Crusade, hundreds of alien civilizations were invaded and annihilated by the Emperor's Legions.

He was very much aware of xenos.

Harriticus wrote:He was very much aware of xenos.

Well he did imprison the C'tan Void Dragon... well according to the way the Void Dragon "tells" the story anyway.

That the Emperor knew that Xenos species existed is a given (although whether he knew about every single itty bitt life form out there is not).

The more interesting question would be his motivations behind his Xenos purge - which have essentially remained occulted to this very day.

Even after the Horus Heresy novels and the "Last Church" short story came out, the line editor, Graham McNeill, had been quite evasive in answering direct questions about whether or not what we see in the HH novels constitutes some sort of baseline truth regarding the Big E.

If we put aside the typical "wave-offs" by GW and the BL about canonicity - the deployment of the character of the Emperor has often been used to heighten a sense of mystery around the character.

We're never given access to his direct thoughts as a reader. He's only present for these relatively short appearances and then promptly disappears again.

We can only see the man in the 3rd person - or rather we only see the Image he projects as the Emperor of Mankind.

In the dead of night when no one is looking, is the man we know as the Emperor gleefully counting the corpses of the Xenos? Is he having a bottle of port weeping about how bad this all is - and how it must be done anyway? Or is he meglomanical as any Dictator, dreaming of Godhood for himself?

Throughout the years - these questions have been put directly to GW - with no forthcoming response of course.

Essentially, to paraphrase Gav Thorpe, while events and facts exist in WH40k, interpretation of the matter lays in your hands.

Yes he knew of xeno's Mankind had run into an awful lot of them. During the dark age Orks where still around, looting and a fighting and the Eldra , while in decline where still king ol the mountain and not the mere shadow they currently are.

I think the Emperor wouldn't have had too much of a problem with the Tau. After all, they are a Chaos-free, technologically advanced race with oddly similar beliefs to the Emperor.
If the Eldar had been greeted by a Primarch that wasn't destined to fall to Chaos (the fact that it was Slaneesh is even worse) they may have listened to them and formed an alliance.
The Emperor would not mind the Eldar as much because they have know how to resist Chaos and could grant humanity safe access to the Webway.

gabrielhorus wrote:I think the Emperor wouldn't have had too much of a problem with the Tau. After all, they are a Chaos-free, technologically advanced race with oddly similar beliefs to the Emperor.
If the Eldar had been greeted by a Primarch that wasn't destined to fall to Chaos (the fact that it was Slaneesh is even worse) they may have listened to them and formed an alliance.
The Emperor would not mind the Eldar as much because they have know how to resist Chaos and could grant humanity safe access to the Webway.

Well that is one way of looking at it.

Part of the issue comes down to how human (in terms of character flaws) do you view Big E? That feeds into how "serious" he was about the whole Xenos Purge issue.

If he truly is a meglomaniac along the lines of Stalin and Hitler - then he would have committed the Xenos purge to the very end, irregardless of a race's susceptibility to Chaos.

However if you ascribe to a "Just as Planned" interpretation of the Emperor - then the Purge looks more like a political move. It gives a common enemy/enemies for humanity to unite around and would eventually catapult the human race to the top of the heap. He wouldn't need to eliminate every xenos species in the cosmos - just eradicate a few of the little dogs and bloody the noses of the big ones.

Under this format - yes the Emperor would tolerate the existence of the Eldar...so long as the Eldar undestood their place on the Great Chain of Being.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:I think the Emperor wouldn't have had too much of a problem with the Tau. After all, they are a Chaos-free, technologically advanced race with oddly similar beliefs to the Emperor.
If the Eldar had been greeted by a Primarch that wasn't destined to fall to Chaos (the fact that it was Slaneesh is even worse) they may have listened to them and formed an alliance.
The Emperor would not mind the Eldar as much because they have know how to resist Chaos and could grant humanity safe access to the Webway.

Well that is one way of looking at it.

Part of the issue comes down to how human (in terms of character flaws) do you view Big E? That feeds into how "serious" he was about the whole Xenos Purge issue.

If he truly is a meglomaniac along the lines of Stalin and Hitler - then he would have committed the Xenos purge to the very end, irregardless of a race's susceptibility to Chaos.

However if you ascribe to a "Just as Planned" interpretation of the Emperor - then the Purge looks more like a political move. It gives a common enemy/enemies for humanity to unite around and would eventually catapult the human race to the top of the heap. He wouldn't need to eliminate every xenos species in the cosmos - just eradicate a few of the little dogs and bloody the noses of the big ones.

Under this format - yes the Emperor would tolerate the existence of the Eldar...so long as the Eldar undestood their place on the Great Chain of Being.

Even if an arrangement had been made, the Eldar and perhaps the Tau and any non-violent and non-Chaos tainted races that submitted would be considered second-class or mere subject races. Although the Eldar might have been granted a 'most-favored' status or something. The Emperor was planning to replace them, but He did tacitly approve of Fulgrim's negotiation...perhaps in the long-run, the Emperor sought to assimilate the Eldar. It's impossible for a psyker of His Majesty's degree not to have foreseen the Necrons and the Tyranids...perhaps an eventual 'fusion' of the two races?

Tadashi wrote:Even if an arrangement had been made, the Eldar and perhaps the Tau and any non-violent and non-Chaos tainted races that submitted would be considered second-class or mere subject races.

That's pretty much the implication. If we can believe what has been written in the codices and other sources, the Emperor was definitely Pro-Human......although for what reason remains obscure.


That is the inherent problem behind this "game" that fans play of "Emperor Guessing" if you will, is that we are unfortunately not privy to an omniscient viewpoint - and the producers of the game are unwilling to give us one.

All we have are a mass of unreliable narrators who are already filtering their composite pictures of the Emperor through their own viewpoints.

ie: If i ask Guilliame to describe the Emperor to me and I ask Magnus the Red to do the same, i'm going to get a very different picture.

We never have unadulterated access to the Big E in the same way we have to say Uriel Ventris or Eisenhorn or heck even Horus.

In a certain sense however, I suppose this is in keeping with a former BL editor (Marc Gascigone(sp?) i believe) stated - Everyone is going to see something different - and that's the point.

Take any great leader in history - some see a divine agent, others a mass murderer, still others simply see a human being.

So it is the same with how the Inquisition for instance has so many interpretations of what constitutes the Emperor's Will - whether one follows Monodominance, Thorianism, et al. Each philosophy within the Inquisition truly believes they are following some version or format of the Emperor's will (well, except the Phaeronites).


What I personally find interesting about this is that people in real life actually follow the same pattern when trying to interpret the Emperor.

For some people - one's personal inclinations about philosophy, religion, politics, the military, etc. bleed over quite quickly into how the Emperor is conceived.

And often the Emperor ends up agreeing with what you (not you specifically Tadashi, but the general "you") believes...



EDIT - Its actually quite ironic.. The singular, powerful, unique(?) divine man is now reduced to being merely a Sock-Puppet or Soap Box for everyone else's views.

KplKeegan wrote:The Emperor probably despised the Orks moreso than anything else, but he knew of Xenos, not the latter Tyranid or Tau. I believe that he knew Necrons existed, but didn't call them Necrons, considering he fought the Void Dragon/Necrontyr on Mars dabbled in things that could repress the warp (Like his Golden Toilet).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:By "we" I assume you mean The Imperium, and no, the Emperor didn't seem too interested in making friends with the Eldar. In all likelihood, if the Emperor hadn't died, mankind's technological level would have continued to improve, and the Imperium would have just brushed aside and wiped out the Eldar.

I doubt it. You're talking about a race that had existed long before there was an Emperor. A race so advanced that they could feat of their pleasures and create a Chaos God and the Eye of Terror. Their weaponry (at least fluff wise) and their knowledge of the Black Library and the Webway would prevent their total extinction.

The Imperium has regularly fought the Eldar to a stand-still, and even destroyed smaller craft worlds with technology that hasn't advanced much in 10,000 years. While you might be correct that the Imperium couldn't wipe them out to an individual, a consolidated Imperium with advancing technology would surely have brushed aside any Eldar which had remained in the way. Eldar technology is certainly highly advanced, however they are still a dying race, whereas mankind would be a growing race in 40K. Never underestimate the advantage of 10,000 to one numerical advantages, lol.

Eh on the IoM vs the Eldar issue. The IoM could not have existed if the Eldar race has not for the most part died. It's very death throes are what allowed the fledgling IoM and carry out the grand crusade and if the Eldar had the number of the old days, the IoM would not cover any area's they saw fit to claim. They easily held off humanity at its height, a fledgling empire while galaxy wide conquest in mind would have done little to stop that.

You guys keep forgetting, all eldar left, Exodits, Dark, corsairs are but a tiny, tiny, tiny faction of the Eldar. They are "dying" because the race is on the crisp of extinction. They simply no longer have the numbers ot the time to replenish them.

Now on the Tau, the Emperor would have hated them and viewed them as a threat. Not because they can be infected by Chaos, but because like humans they have a drive, an ideology and the balls to want to spread it to every star in the sky. That marks them as a Xeno threat.

KplKeegan wrote:
Because the Laughing God outplayed Slaneesh, why would a Mortal Upstart concern him? There are more ways to deal with such 'Immortal' creatures than brute force. And the Solitare sacrifices his soul to Slaneesh in order to perform the Dance of the Fall of the Eldar, to remind the Eldar Race of what they've lost. There's no reason for the Laughing God to intercede on such a valuable lesson.

Technically, the Laughing God got away while Slaanesh battled Khaine. He didn't outplay it. And since the Emperor is apparently older than the Chaos Gods, they're the upstarts.

Durza wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:
Because the Laughing God outplayed Slaneesh, why would a Mortal Upstart concern him? There are more ways to deal with such 'Immortal' creatures than brute force. And the Solitare sacrifices his soul to Slaneesh in order to perform the Dance of the Fall of the Eldar, to remind the Eldar Race of what they've lost. There's no reason for the Laughing God to intercede on such a valuable lesson.

Technically, the Laughing God got away while Slaanesh battled Khaine. He didn't outplay it. And since the Emperor is apparently older than the Chaos Gods, they're the upstarts.

How is the Emperor Older than the Chaos Gods?

Sasori wrote:



How is the Emperor Older than the Chaos Gods?

I have no clue what book it is from but, it seems it thought by more then a few on this board and others that ye old blood God was born in the medial ages.

Ok on the warhammer wiki I found this

"Khorne is the mightiest and the second oldest of the four major Chaos Gods, fully coming into existence in the Immaterium sometime during Terra's European Middle Ages in the 2nd Millennium"

I can find nothing about Nurgle's age, but it does keep talking as if it like it is tied to human death and suffering.

Sasori wrote:

Durza wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:
Because the Laughing God outplayed Slaneesh, why would a Mortal Upstart concern him? There are more ways to deal with such 'Immortal' creatures than brute force. And the Solitare sacrifices his soul to Slaneesh in order to perform the Dance of the Fall of the Eldar, to remind the Eldar Race of what they've lost. There's no reason for the Laughing God to intercede on such a valuable lesson.

Technically, the Laughing God got away while Slaanesh battled Khaine. He didn't outplay it. And since the Emperor is apparently older than the Chaos Gods, they're the upstarts.

How is the Emperor Older than the Chaos Gods?

An interesting question...you see the elder Chaos Powers have always existed in latent form, embodying the worst and best aspects of Mankind. The shamans who brought about the creation of the being who would become the Emperor foresaw that at some point the Powers would achieve true sentience, at which point they could no longer reincarnate. To prevent that, they committed mass suicide and mass reincarnated themselves as one being, the Emperor, around 3000BC. The elder Powers, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle, would achieve sentience during the Middle Ages. Slaanesh itself would not begin to form until the Eldar began to fall, and only at the Fall of the Eldar would it achieve true sentience. So yes, the Emperor is older in the sense that He was around before the elder Powers achieved sentience.