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Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Based on the wording on page two, the "physical" roll is only used as a verb.

How'd you use it right there? lol

Not as a verb.
You roll dice.
You make a d6 roll.

See the difference? The latter is how it's used in the Chrono rules, the former is how you're reading it.

Dammit, I'm still doing it! lol I read your "You make a d6 roll" as little-d, ie, non-conceptual, and you *meant* it as big-D, as in "Initiative roll".

It's plain that "roll" can refer to a physical roll, a game-conceptual roll, it can be a verb in both cases and indeed in verb form can mean do both ("roll for initiative!"). The word "roll" is very versatile and deserves a bit of disambiguation. But it didn't get it here. So, the Chrono rule is, I'm afraid, open to alternate interpretation.

Based on my experiences and the information I have, my interpretation is that it can be used to reroll part of a 2D6 roll now. That's all, and I'm just explaining my reasoning, not trying to persuade you. My purpose here was to say that I'm switching to considering 2D6 chrono reroll benefits when building lists. And when talking to others about lists, and when suggesting tactics, and so on. We don't need to agree on it, the only time it'll come up between us we'll either know each other better or we'll have some judge dictating interpretations anyway. No stress.

No, "Roll for initiative!" is not referencing both.
It's a directive to roll (verb) for initiative.
You do make an initiative roll, but that's not the same thing.

You keep saying its open to interpretation, but don't really have a basis for that statement besides how other games use D and d, and your (incorrect) understanding of the word roll.

A d6 roll is a noun. You can point to it on the table and show it to someone.
Rolling a d6 is a verb. It's an action.
You're conflating the two in a way the English language doesn't allow.

And the reason I keep posting is that I don't think giving list advice based on flawed interpretations of the rules is a good idea.

Also, completely irrelevant, but hot damn the iPad spell checker is amazing.

rigeld2 wrote:You keep saying its open to interpretation, but don't really have a basis for that statement besides how other games use D and d, and your (incorrect) understanding of the word roll.

yakface wrote:The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You keep saying its open to interpretation, but don't really have a basis for that statement besides how other games use D and d, and your (incorrect) understanding of the word roll.

yakface wrote:The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

Except it does. First paragraph.

"often need to roll dice... Usually referred to as d6"
It references shooting, which we know how to handle, and from the context of the rest of the page we know a d6 roll is the final result of rolling a d6.

Well, then, you need to take that up with Yakface.

yakface wrote:[
The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

Page 2 doesn't define D6 roll explicitly, but they do define that "D6+2" roll gives final result of 3-8 (Pg2, Modifying dice rolls). Considering this and how 2D6 is defined, there is absolutely no support for the interpretation that 2D6 roll is composed of 2 separate D6 rolls.

Short version:
We know that any given dice roll gives us final result. Thus, even though you do throw two six-sided die, 2D6 roll [result 2-12] does not consist of two separate D6 rolls [first result 1-6,second result 1-6].

Fake-edit: It can be argued, that modified dice roll is not in fact a roll of separate type (ie 3D6-3 is 3D6 roll, just as normal 3D6 is). This is completely valid viewpoint, but also means that D6 roll is explicitly defined to give final result of 1-6, as per "Modifying Dice Rolls"

Well, Luide, at least you recognize the problem. It's the ambiguity between a D6 roll being a physical die roll, or a D6 roll being a game check that involves a physical die roll. I'm not sure we agree on the exact ambiguous element yet. Or why the 2D6 reroll rule is irrelevant.

We need more concise semantics for clear discussion. Let's make our own shorthand for these different roll flavors, I'll just abbreviate your "roll" suffix, and add the explicit concept of a "check":
D6 = a physical six sided die
D6r = a six sided die roll, ie, a physical roll
D6rc = a game roll check consisting of a roll of a six sided die, ie, "Initiative roll"

So, a game check involving a 2D6 die roll would be a 2D6rc, ie, a leadership check. The physical roll for that leadership check is a 2D6r. That physical roll consists of 2 x D6r - however, the leadership check does NOT consist in ANY WAY of 2 x D6rc.

Are we good so far? Just laying the groundwork for further discussion. To be continued, must run...

Randall Turner wrote:Well, Luide, at least you recognize the problem. It's the ambiguity between a D6 roll being a physical die roll, or a D6 roll being a game check that involves a physical die roll. I'm not sure we agree on the exact ambiguous element yet. Or why the 2D6 reroll rule is irrelevant.

The ambiguity disappears when you parse the sentence. When rules say roll as verb, they mean the physical act of throwing the dice. When game rules say roll as noun they are referring to what you'd consider "game roll check". In my post, I underlined each roll that is noun.

And 2D6 reroll rule isn't irrelevant. In my opinion it alone would stop Chrono from working against 2D6 rolls.
I mean, the rule reads "unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise". Compare to SA wording "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage" and wording used in ATSKNF. Because Chrono doesn't explicitly mention re-rolling only portion of 2D6 roll, it cannot do so. Implicit permission is not enough.

Randall Turner wrote:
We need more concise semantics for clear discussion. Let's make our own shorthand for these different roll flavors, I'll just abbreviate your "roll" suffix, and add the explicit concept of a "check":
D6 = a physical six sided die
D6r = a six sided die roll, ie, a physical roll
D6rc = a game roll check consisting of a roll of a six sided die, ie, "Initiative roll"

So, a game check involving a 2D6 die roll would be a 2D6rc, ie, a leadership check. The physical roll for that leadership check is a 2D6r. That physical roll consists of 2 x D6r - however, the leadership check does NOT consist in ANY WAY of 2 x D6rc.

Are we good so far? Just laying the groundwork for further discussion. To be continued, must run...

Yes. And every time rules refer to roll as a noun instead of a verb, they're always referring to what you'd consider xD6rc. So Chrono only allows re-roll of a D6rc, never D6r.

Randall Turner wrote:Well, then, you need to take that up with Yakface.

If you're using his argument to support yours, you should be able to defend it.
Just remember, while Yakface is the owner of the site, he doesn't have absolute authority over what is correct in the rules.
... just absolute authority over my punishment for calling him out.

Randall Turner wrote:So, a game check involving a 2D6 die roll would be a 2D6rc, ie, a leadership check. The physical roll for that leadership check is a 2D6r. That physical roll consists of 2 x D6r - however, the leadership check does NOT consist in ANY WAY of 2 x D6rc.

I think I can agree with that.

I will assert that the context of the sentence defines the word "roll" for us - or at least which "version" of the word we should use.

I will assert that the only time D6r is meant, the word "roll" is used as a verb.
I will assert that the wording of the Chronometron ("can re-roll one of his D6 rolls") does not use the word "roll" as a verb, and therefore is referring to a D6rc.

I'm not "appealing to authority" re: Yakface, rigeld2, I'm simply saying that I agree with his interpretations. I want to clearly state the issues first, bear with me. Reiterating our shorthand:

D6 = a physical six sided die
D6r = a six sided die roll, ie, a physical roll
D6rc = a game roll check consisting of a roll of a six sided die, ie, "Initiative roll"
2D6r = physical roll of two six sided dice, equivalent to 2xD6r
2D6rc = a game check consisting of a 2D6r, ie, "Leadership check"
etc.

Relevant rule wording, Chronometron:

"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase."

There are two possible interpretations:
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6r each phase."
"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6rc each phase."

Obviously if it's the second, we can't reroll part of a 2D6rc. However, if it's the first, we can b/c we can roll any D6r without qualification. And that is it. That's all, nothing more to it.

I agree with Yackface saying a D6 roll isn't defined - we've defined it here (both flavors), but GW neither defined it nor specified in the chrono rule which definition they're using. I also agree that the rule is ambiguous, and could be interpreted both ways. So now we get to the fun part - why interpret it as a D6r reroll? Well, first of all, it's not 100% - the only part of the opposing view I flatly disagree with is that it's the only possible interpretation. If we're in a situation where a rule is ambiguous, we have to divine intent. We're in RAI land here. We know a few things:
1) People have called the GW hotline and been told they can partial reroll.
2) It's allowed in some tournaments.

Neither of these are definitive, but though they don't hold weight here on YMDC, they matter in real life. In both cases there's *probably* been contact with GW to determine intent. And frankly I don't care about winning a debate on YMDC, I just want to know if I can use the silly thing - for casual use 1) will probably suffice, for tournament use 2) is probably germane. We could do one more thing:
3) Ask GW ourselves - but that's hard. (And even if we can, it takes time to get a response. )

reroll irrelevant

But it is defined. Or are you ignoring the context and words on page 2?

Ignoring that, saying that the word "rolls" can be a verb (in the Chronometron rules) is just wrong. I don't see any way to parse that sentence to make it a verb. And the only time d6r is valid is when the word roll is a verb.
"rolls" is plural. You can't have a plural verb with a singular subject (a model, his)

lol Yeah, I'm just ignoring your noun/verb shenanigans. It's pretty obvious that a physical D6 roll is a noun and a conceptual D6 roll is also a noun. They're both "things".

Randall Turner wrote:lol Yeah, I'm just ignoring your noun/verb shenanigans. It's pretty obvious that a physical D6 roll is a noun and a conceptual D6 roll is also a noun. They're both "things".

No. The act of rolling is a verb. Roll a d6 - that's a verb. Make a d6 roll - that's a noun.

And this is absolutely relevant.

rigeld2 wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:lol Yeah, I'm just ignoring your noun/verb shenanigans. It's pretty obvious that a physical D6 roll is a noun and a conceptual D6 roll is also a noun. They're both "things".

No. The act of rolling is a verb. Roll a d6 - that's a verb. Make a d6 roll - that's a noun.

And this is absolutely relevant.

That we can use the word "roll" as a noun or a verb? I'm not contesting that at all, it's obvious. If you're saying a physical roll of a six sided die has to be a verb, yeah, we've got a problem. I just look back in the sentence I typed and go, "yep, noun".

Correct.
When you change the usage of the word, you change the type of word it is.

A physical roll is the act of rolling.
Your d6r is an action - a verb.

rigeld2 wrote:A physical roll (noun) is the act (noun) of rolling.
Your d6r is an action (noun) - a verb.

"roll", "act", and "action" above are all nouns. (here, I label...) ps - the word "verb" is also a noun.

I don't think "verb" means what you think it means.

... No, seriously, I do.
The word act is a noun. If you are rolling dice, then that act is a verb.
The word action is a noun. Action words (that is, words that describe an action) are verbs.

To roll a die is a verb. A die roll is a noun.

Edit: it's interesting that the word I was describing you didn't address - what is the word "rolling" in the post I quoted?

rigeld2 wrote:Edit: it's interesting that the word I was describing you didn't address - what is the word "rolling" in the post I quoted?

Have you figured out yet that it's also a noun?

Dude, I don't want to do this anymore.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Edit: it's interesting that the word I was describing you didn't address - what is the word "rolling" in the post I quoted?

Have you figured out yet that it's also a noun?

Dude, I don't want to do this anymore.

Roll a d6.
What kind of word is roll?

Make a d6 roll.
What kind of word is roll?

rigeld2 wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Edit: it's interesting that the word I was describing you didn't address - what is the word "rolling" in the post I quoted?

Have you figured out yet that it's also a noun?

Dude, I don't want to do this anymore.

Roll a d6.
What kind of word is roll?

Make a d6 roll.
What kind of word is roll?

1. A verb.
2. ???
3. Profit.

Wait, I think I did something wrong there. Oh well.

Randall Turner wrote:I agree with Yackface saying a D6 roll isn't defined - we've defined it here (both flavors), but GW neither defined it nor specified in the chrono rule which definition they're using. I

D6 roll per se isn't defined at page 2. D6+X roll is explicitly defined (where X is a number). Now the real question is, does adding or subtracting number from D6 change the type of the roll?

Example: is a 2D6-3 considered a type of 2D6 roll?
Even better example, do you consider D6+0 roll to be a type of D6 roll? If you answer yes to either, then D6 roll is well defined by rules.

And the verb vs noun is extremely important, because that is exactly what distinguishes the game term roll from physical act of rolling the dice. Basically way to know did designer mean D6r or D6rc.

Luide wrote: <snip ALL of it>

DEFINING TERMS!! Come on, guys! It's not that complicated! There are two kinds of rolls - a game roll and a phsical roll. D6r and D6rc - Both are friggin' nouns, okay? Both are things! What is so damn hard to understand about this? Are you guys yanking my chain? Am I getting trolled here? Are you somehow scared that admitting you understand this is going to cost you a debate? All we're doing here is defining terms. THIS ISN'T PART OF THE DEBATE! This is the part BEFORE the debate, when we make sure we're both speaking English - because though a dude speaking Mandarin may be making good points, we're not gonna agree on any of them.

By Definition: A game roll is a to-hit roll, a saving throw, a scatter roll, a night-fight check. Shorthand is D6rc, 2D6rc, etc.

By Definition: A physical roll is just any dumbass roll of a die. Shorthand is D6r, 2D6r etc.

This has nothing to do with 40K or the BRB, these are *our* agreed-on definitions. And yeah, before we go there. I'll stipulate that there are many MORE kinds of rolls, including die rolls and cinnamon rolls and lucky streaks. Some may be verbs. If you believe one of them are germane to this discussion, include them in our dictionary of terms - it's not a problem, the "defining terms" part again isn't part of a debate. Anybody can include a new term with a unique definition to use in the discussion.

Just don't go redefining terms we've already settled on!!

http://www.schoolsdebate.com/docs/definitions.asp

Randall Turner wrote:By Definition: A game roll is a to-hit roll, a saving throw, a scatter roll, a night-fight check. Shorthand is D6rc, 2D6rc, etc.

Yes.

By Definition: A physical roll is just any dumbass roll of a die. Shorthand is D6r, 2D6r etc.

Yes.

Just don't go redefining terms we've already settled on!!

I'm not.

Are you saying that there is a difference between a physical roll and the act of rolling a die?

rigeld2 wrote:Are you saying that there is a difference between a physical roll and the act of rolling a die?

Absolutely. By definition. Pick up a die - roll it. Wait 'till it stops bouncing. That whole thing's a physical roll. It has a result. It's conceptually different from the act of rolling, it's conceptually different from its result. It contains one (the result) after it happens, and contains another (the roll action) as part of it's creation process. It requires one to happen (the act of rolling) before you know the result. But you can refer to it before it happens, so the act of rolling isn't necessary to talk about it beforehand. And it exists as a concept before you know the result, and doesn't require that you know the result before you can refer to it. And it exists in a completed state with a result after the rolling action is completed. So there's no sequential dependency to the concept. IT'S A FRICKIN' DIE ROLL. To beat the horse to a pulp here:

You roll a die to make a die roll.
The action of rolling is the initial part of the die roll.
After the action of rolling is complete, the die roll has a result.
The result of a die roll is the final state of the die, usually whichever pip side comes up on top.
The complete action and result exist after the die comes to rest.
In its completed state the die roll still contains all it's component parts - the roll action as well as the final state of the die itself.
You can reroll a die roll. Repeat the process, reroll the die, get a new result.
This creates a *new* die roll.

This is completely intuitive and obvious. There are no tricks here. It's the normal layman understanding of a die roll. The state of the die is part of the state of the roll - a die roll can fall off the table, because the die that's part of it fell off the table. And this is all BY DEFINITION - if you don't like the definition, that's fine, we can change it and refer to different parts of it as different things. But eventually I'm going to define this thing right here as something, "Ralph", I don't care, and refer to it in the subsequent discussion.

Randall Turner wrote:You roll a die to make a die roll.

This sentence, right here, is what I'm trying to address.

You've used the word roll in that sentence twice.
I'm asserting that the former is what you've termed "d6r" and the latter is "d6rc".

If your understanding of our agreed definitions is different, that's fine - do you agree to my amended one?

No, not at all. If I just pull out a die here and roll it, it's a d6r. It's not a d6rc, because it's not a "check" for anything.

My definition above was a d6r. A d6rc is:

A die roll associated with a game concept. An initiative roll. A to-hit roll. A leadership roll, a run distance check, a dangerous terrain roll, etc, etc, etc.

I agree with Randall Turner's point.

A roll as part of a game check is a noun. (A D6rc is a noun).

A roll as a physical act is also a noun. (A D6r is a noun).

Unit1126PLL wrote:I agree with Randall Turner's point.

A roll as part of a game check is a noun. (A D6rc is a noun).

A roll as a physical act is also a noun. (A D6r is a noun).

oh, though, you've used the shorthand incorrectly. A D6rc is a game check roll, ie, initiative roll. It contains a D6r, ie, a physical roll. The asociation with the "initiative" concept is what's added to make it a conceptual roll, ie, a D6rc.

A roll as a physical act is a noun, but it's not a D6r. (Edit: crap, maybe it is, it depends on your definition of "physical act".) A D6r is a physical roll, including the physical act of rolling as well as the resulting die state. It's simply not associated with any game concept. (They're certainly all nouns, though. )

We have some more definitions to make, by the way, involving multi-die rolls. Basically what a 2D6r and a 2D6rc are, and their relationships to D6r and D6rc's. Again, these are just definitions. They're simply agreed-on conventions so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

Randall Turner wrote:No, not at all. If I just pull out a die here and roll it, it's a d6r. It's not a d6rc, because it's not a "check" for anything.

So how are you defining the word "roll" when used as a verb?

Roll a d6.