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So lets say I deep strike a squad with a Harbinger of Eternity, with the Cronometron, if i roll my scatter die and get an arrow, a 1 and a 6 for example, can i use that to re roll the 6?

No. Page 3.

We had a huge thread about this, but no.

Page 2 tells you that if re-rolling a roll of multiple dice, you have to re-roll all of them, unless you have a rule which specifically says otherwise.

Chronometron lets you re-roll a d6 roll, and says nothing about scatter rolls, 2d6 rolls, 3d6 rolls, etc. So it can't be used on them.

rigeld2 wrote:No. Page 3.

page 3 of what?

The main rulebook. Where it talks about re-rolls.

And I meant page 2. Obviously. Yeah. That's it.

Give him the whole story, without re-opening the can of worms.

Kalzruk, for multi-die rolls, ie 2d6 morale etc, if you reroll you must reroll all die - unless specified otherwise, you must treat the roll as a whole. The conflict comes in because some people interpret the Chronometron rule phraseology as giving you permission to reroll just one of the set, ie, that the rule does specify otherwise. It's more regular to play that you can't, but there is a chance that GW intended otherwise.

The fact is that many 40k rules aren't clearcut. It's probably safest to play that you can't reroll just one of a set, but it's very possible that an upcoming FAQ will "clarify" that rolling one was RAW all along, too.

Until FAQed - I wouldn't do this since there is some disagreement.

Regardless, the chronometron is still immensely useful.

Randall Turner wrote:Give him the whole story, without re-opening the can of worms.

Kalzruk, for multi-die rolls, ie 2d6 morale etc, if you reroll you must reroll all die - unless specified otherwise, you must treat the roll as a whole. The conflict comes in because some people interpret the Chronometron rule phraseology as giving you permission to reroll just one of the set, ie, that the rule does specify otherwise. It's more regular to play that you can't, but there is a chance that GW intended otherwise.

The fact is that many 40k rules aren't clearcut. It's probably safest to play that you can't reroll just one of a set, but it's very possible that an upcoming FAQ will "clarify" that rolling one was RAW all along, too.

I want to flip-flop here. After talking to Norbu, the guy who won the Indy GT with the Tremorcrons. He has been and is using the Chronometron to reroll leadership rolls etc. without dispute.

We discussed it, then I looked at the rule wording, compared it to other wording in other games etc, and the D6 does plainly stand alone. Ie, permission to reroll one of the unit's D6 rolls does include half of a 2D6 morale check.

That's all, don't expect a consensus, just saying that on further consideration I'm changing my own personal position.

Compared it to wording in other games?
And you think that's valid?

Wow.
And no one disputing doesn't mean it's the right way to play.

To be clear, when I say "comparing it to other games" I'm saying what's lacking in the 40K BRB is some wording that we're all used to re: d6, D6, 2d6, etc. from other games that I'd subconsciously projected into my reading. You know, the standard big-D, little-d differentiation is just not there in this rulebook.

And I'm not trying to say you should think this way, I'm explaining what changed in my mental picture. That's one element. What triggered the re-evaluation, though, was a GT winner telling me, "of course you can reroll one of the die!" That's a data point, and as far as "the right way to play" - Rigeld2, that's *all* I'm interested in. I care about slightly different things than you do. Not so much legalistic interpretation of RAW, but often intent.

I absolutely care about intent. And GT winners can be wrong too. They are not infallible.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Until FAQed - I wouldn't do this since there is some disagreement.

Regardless, the chronometron is still immensely useful.

Pretty much this. Being able to re-roll Imotekhs NF or lightning, or a Tachyon Arrow, etc, is still awesome and extremely useful.

To roll 2d6, the rule book tells you to roll 2 1d6 and add them. You never reroll the 2d6 roll with chronometron, so the rule about rerolls doesn't apply, as the chronometron is not rerolling a 2d6 roll. To use chrono, you reroll the d6 before summing it in the 2d6 roll.

DevianID wrote:To roll 2d6, the rule book tells you to roll 2 1d6 and add them. You never reroll the 2d6 roll with chronometron, so the rule about rerolls doesn't apply, as the chronometron is not rerolling a 2d6 roll. To use chrono, you reroll the d6 before summing it in the 2d6 roll.

It's like you have a unique viewpoint that contributes to the discussion.
Except you don't. And your viewpoint is wrong.
You can't re-roll the die before summing it into the 2d6 result - because thats not a d6 roll.

rigeld2 wrote:I absolutely care about intent.

I get that, it's a question of degree. I figured out you're actually a pretty nice guy, dude. (especially when you look things up for me. ) But our heads work a bit different.

And GT winners can be wrong too. They are not infallible.

No question. It changes the shade of grey, though.

McNinja, it's not "safe" to depend on it. But in my mind I think it's safe enough to start looking at it as a tactical option, with a view towards checking any Chrono dependent action before trying to use it in a tourney.

I never said it was safe. I just said that it's obscenely useful and a powrful tool.

I agree that the Chronometron cannot be used to re-roll single dice out of a 2D6 or 3D6 roll because of the careful way it is worded.

It says the model/unit can re-roll one of their 'D6 rolls each phase'. If the phrasing had been that they could re-roll any 'single D6 rolled by the unit each phase', then I think this would be specifically allowing a single D6 to be re-rolled (that exact exception talked about in the re-roll rules).

However a 'D6 roll' is definitely different from a 2D6 roll, as 2D6 or 3D6, etc rolls specify that you add the results of all the dice together, whereas a D6 roll, no matter how many of them you make at once you do not add them together.


With that said, we're really talking about the fine minutiae of grammar here. It is easily believable that being able to 're-roll a 'D6 roll each phase' is supposed to be exactly that exception to the re-roll rules. I mean, the whole point of that exception is to explain that if you're granted the ability to re-roll 'a roll' then it would be all the dice in a 2D6, 3D6, etc, roll, excecpt in a case where the re-roll rule specified that you only got to re-roll a single D6.

This is clearly a case where the rule only allows you to re-roll a single die, as opposed to a whole roll. So whether that is supposed to meant that you can't re-roll either die of a 2D6 roll or that you're only allowed to re-roll one D6 out of such a roll is again, frankly down to subtle minutiae.

As such, I'd personally be fine with ruling it either way.

Randall Turner wrote:To be clear, when I say "comparing it to other games" I'm saying what's lacking in the 40K BRB is some wording that we're all used to re: d6, D6, 2d6, etc. from other games that I'd subconsciously projected into my reading. You know, the standard big-D, little-d differentiation is just not there in this rulebook.

I've been playing rpg's and TTWG's for 24 years, and I don't know of any significance assigned to the capitalization (or lack thereof) of the abbreviation of "die".

Lordhat wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:To be clear, when I say "comparing it to other games" I'm saying what's lacking in the 40K BRB is some wording that we're all used to re: d6, D6, 2d6, etc. from other games that I'd subconsciously projected into my reading. You know, the standard big-D, little-d differentiation is just not there in this rulebook.

I've been playing rpg's and TTWG's for 24 years, and I don't know of any significance assigned to the capitalization (or lack thereof) of the abbreviation of "die".

Because there isn't any.

Lordhat wrote: I've been playing rpg's and TTWG's for 24 years, and I don't know of any significance assigned to the capitalization (or lack thereof) of the abbreviation of "die".

And yet, it exists! lol Seriously, you're not familiar with the difference between D6/d6, and you're one of the senior members here, aren't you. <sigh> old. I believe the original definition is on something like page three of the D&D Player's Manual, copyright 1979, but it's basically that d6 = a six sided die, 2d6 = two dice, D6 = roll of one d6, 2D6 = atomic, indivisible roll of 2d6.

d6 = six sided die
D6 = roll of a d6
2d6 = two six sided dice
2D6 = roll of 2d6

The pertinent line to this rule interpretation is in the Necron codex where it says the Chronometron allows a reroll of one of the unit's D6 rolls per phase. In no way does that carry the same significance that it would have in the systems I'd grown up playing. So, basically I misread the rule, or at least read it with the wrong emphasis. To you all the key element was whether a 2D6 roll was atomic - to me, it was that the rule only allowed D6 rerolls, and specifically disallowed d6 rerolls.

If the rule had read, "allows a reroll of one of the unit's d6 rolls per phase", ie, one of the six sided die, I'd have long ago argued for partial rerolls. But I read it to say, "allows a reroll of one of the unit's D6 rolls per phase", ie, one of his rolls using a d6. Because a "d6", ie, six sided die, in no way equates to a "D6", ie, roll of a six sided die.

But then on page 2 - "Almost all of the dice rolls... use standard six-sided dice (usually referred to as 'D6')". Holy f'k. In 40K, "D6" means "d6"! The Chronometron rule is specifically saying that we can reroll one of the six sided die!!

(And indeed, I originally accused Norbu of misunderstanding the codex rule - though I quickly tweaked to his version of your blank "hunh?" )

Thank you for this opportunity to walk down nostalgia lane, "Ready Player One" deja vu.

yakface wrote:I agree that the Chronometron cannot be used to re-roll single dice out of a 2D6 or 3D6 roll because of the careful way it is worded.

It says the model/unit can re-roll one of their 'D6 rolls each phase'. If the phrasing had been that they could re-roll any 'single D6 rolled by the unit each phase', then I think this would be specifically allowing a single D6 to be re-rolled (that exact exception talked about in the re-roll rules).

Chrono does give implicit permission for re-roll.
It definitely isn't giving specific (ie. explicit) permission for re-roll. If it were, it would mention that it can re-roll single D6 from 2D6 roll. One good example of standard required for specific permission in rules is ATSKNF vs SA.

yakface wrote:
However a 'D6 roll' is definitely different from a 2D6 roll, as 2D6 or 3D6, etc rolls specify that you add the results of all the dice together, whereas a D6 roll, no matter how many of them you make at once you do not add them together.

Yup.

Luide wrote:

yakface wrote:I agree that the Chronometron cannot be used to re-roll single dice out of a 2D6 or 3D6 roll because of the careful way it is worded.

It says the model/unit can re-roll one of their 'D6 rolls each phase'. If the phrasing had been that they could re-roll any 'single D6 rolled by the unit each phase', then I think this would be specifically allowing a single D6 to be re-rolled (that exact exception talked about in the re-roll rules).

Chrono does give implicit permission for re-roll.
It definitely isn't giving specific (ie. explicit) permission for re-roll. If it were, it would mention that it can re-roll single D6 from 2D6 roll. One good example of standard required for specific permission in rules is ATSKNF vs SA.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. The example of Sweeping Advance being mentioned in ATSKNF is a example of definitive specificity but that in no way makes it the standard.

Again, the rule for re-rolls basically states that if you are able to re-roll a roll in general, then you would have to re-roll all the dice that make up that roll. The exception is if a rule specifies otherwise. So if a rule does say that any single dice can be re-rolled, then that would absolutely be specific enough to fall into that exception. Otherwise you're creating a situation where a re-roll would have to specify every single possible combination that it could be used, which is obviously ludicrous, as then they'd have to say: you can re-roll any single die, including one die out of a 2D6, 3D6, 4D6, etc.


So while I do agree that the specific wording of the Chronometron does seem to indicate that it cannot be used to reroll one dice out of a 2D6 roll for example, it is by no means some sort of slam-dunk situation where anyone thinking differently is crazy.

The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

yakface wrote:The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

This is exactly the imprecision they were trying to avoid with the d6/D6 notation. (From whatever source, I can't for the life of me remember where or what system I internalized it from.) The ambiguity comes from us being unsure whether rerolling "..one of his D6 rolls.." means one of his physical d6 die rolls or one of his game mandated conceptual D6 rolls involving a single d6 die.

The problem I'm having now is that the the rule for re-rolls we keep referring to is only for 2D6 or 3D6 rolls - it's intended to keep a player granted the right to reroll a 2D6/3D6 roll from preserving one of his previously rolled "good" d6 die. Here, we're not rerolling a 2D6 or 3D6 roll. We're rerolling a single d6 OR D6 - without any restriction I can see. So, the qualifying phrase "If you reroll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll..." isn't triggered - that part of the reroll rule isn't relevant, so the subsequent "...you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some..." is also irrelevant.

Bottom line becomes very simple - we're just rerolling one d6, ie, one six sided die. Wrong, sorry. If it's a "D6" reroll being allowed of course we simply just can't touch a 2D6 or 3D6 - but the reroll rule above is indeed still irrelevant.

The opposing (D6) view is, of course, also supportable. However, strict RAW, the only definition of D6 is on pp. 2 as a physical, six sided die - which if we then textually substitute into the Chronometron rule, we get the "reroll allowed" interpretation. Edits colored

First of all this whole discussion is due to grammar and the inability of GW to write consistent ruling.

But it is even more simple, as you deepstrike the guy with the chronometron is not on the table ( remember deepstriking removes the models from the table) so hence you are not able to use the chronometron to reroll any of these dice...

Valek wrote:First of all this whole discussion is due to grammar and the inability of GW to write consistent ruling.

But it is even more simple, as you deepstrike the guy with the chronometron is not on the table ( remember deepstriking removes the models from the table) so hence you are not able to use the chronometron to reroll any of these dice...

Well, the same logic applies to any 2D6 roll, such as a Ld test, so the argument is valid even if Deep Striking may be moot.

Randall Turner wrote:

yakface wrote:The rules on Pg 2 of the rulebook do define what a '2D6' roll is, they don't explicitly say what a 'D6 roll' is, which therefore leaves the door open for people to interpret that a D6 roll is both any roll made where the single die's outcome is calculated on its own and any single die roll that helps to make up a 2D6 roll.

This is exactly the imprecision they were trying to avoid with the d6/D6 notation. (From whatever source, I can't for the life of me remember where or what system I internalized it from.) The ambiguity comes from us being unsure whether rerolling "..one of his D6 rolls.." means one of his physical d6 die rolls or one of his game mandated conceptual D6 rolls involving a single d6 die.

The problem I'm having now is that the the rule for re-rolls we keep referring to is only for 2D6 or 3D6 rolls - it's intended to keep a player granted the right to reroll a 2D6/3D6 roll from preserving one of his previously rolled "good" d6 die. Here, we're not rerolling a 2D6 or 3D6 roll. We're rerolling a single d6 OR D6 - without any restriction I can see. So, the qualifying phrase "If you reroll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll..." isn't triggered - that part of the reroll rule isn't relevant, so the subsequent "...you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some..." is also irrelevant.

Bottom line becomes very simple - we're just rerolling one d6, ie, one six sided die. Wrong, sorry. If it's a "D6" reroll being allowed of course we simply just can't touch a 2D6 or 3D6 - but the reroll rule above is indeed still irrelevant.

The opposing (D6) view is, of course, also supportable. However, strict RAW, the only definition of D6 is on pp. 2 as a physical, six sided die - which if we then textually substitute into the Chronometron rule, we get the "reroll allowed" interpretation. Edits colored

Where are you getting a difference between a physical d6 and a game mandated d6 roll? The 40k rules don't allow for such a distinction. There is no difference.
Rolling a die as part of a multid6 roll is not 'a d6 roll'.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

yakface wrote:Otherwise you're creating a situation where a re-roll would have to specify every single possible combination that it could be used, which is obviously ludicrous, as then they'd have to say: you can re-roll any single die, including one die out of a 2D6, 3D6, 4D6, etc.

You can re-roll any single die, including one die out of a multiple d6 (2d6, 3d6 and so on) set.

Yeah, that's some ludicrous wording. It's exactly the way the brb defines multi-d6 rolls.

rigeld2 wrote:[Where are you getting a difference between a physical d6 and a game mandated d6 roll? The 40k rules don't allow for such a distinction. There is no difference. Rolling a die as part of a multid6 roll is not 'a d6 roll'.

The distinction isn't something from a rulebook. They're conceptually different things, represented by the same English word. One "roll" is a physical roll of a six-sided plastic cube. The other "roll" is an abstract game concept, ala "initiative roll".

If the Chronometron rule is read to allow us to reroll any physical roll of a six sided die, we may reroll part of a 2D6 roll.

If the Chonometron rule is read to allow us to reroll any conceptual game check involving a six sided die, we may not reroll part of a 2D6 roll.

Valek wrote:as you deepstrike the guy with the chronometron is not on the table ( remember deepstriking removes the models from the table) so hence you are not able to use the chronometron to reroll any of these dice...

Imotekh's storm continuation reroll FAQ established a chronometron's ability to function while off-table.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Where are you getting a difference between a physical d6 and a game mandated d6 roll? The 40k rules don't allow for such a distinction. There is no difference. Rolling a die as part of a multid6 roll is not 'a d6 roll'.

The distinction isn't something from a rulebook. They're conceptually different things, represented by the same English word. One "roll" is a physical roll of a six-sided plastic cube. The other "roll" is an abstract game concept, ala "initiative roll".

If the Chronometron rule is read to allow us to reroll any physical roll of a six sided die, we may reroll part of a 2D6 roll.

If the Chonometron rule is read to allow us to reroll any conceptual game check involving a six sided die, we may not reroll part of a 2D6 roll.

Based on the wording on page two, the "physical" roll is only used as a verb.
I don't see how you can read the Chrono rule and think that the word "roll" is used as a verb.

rigeld2 wrote:Based on the wording on page two, the "physical" roll is only used as a verb.

How'd you use it right there? lol