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The Imperial Guard, along with the Space Wolves and the Grey Knights, make up the big three of 5th ed in tier terms, though the Grey Knights are arguably in a tier of their very own. The infamous vendetta and russ spam list is damned near impossible for assault armies to even *touch* let alone beat. As a nid player, Vendetta spam lists are probably the most terrifying thing I can face because literally half my codex can't be relied to do anything more than just give them dirty looks as they rip my army a new one. Even shooty armies have trouble dealing with the damned things, which are equally formidable in kill point and objective games.

The Guard also is probably the most destructive army if built for heavy firepower, no one else in the game has a high strength pie plate dropping ability even remotely close to the guard. With certain builds, a guard player can cover a frighteningly large portion of the board in explosions. And only the Orks and Tyranids can roll even close to as much dice in one turn as the guard, and that's mainly only in close combat. You've got terminators? So what? I have damned near ten guardsmen for every Terminator you've got, and even 2+ armour will fail under that. Or you could just drive up one leman russ demolisher and nuke the entire squad in one go.

And you can bring in a 500 points list that most lists at such a low points level won't be able to touch. One that involves two leman russes.

HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

^

This. I likely will play IG until the day I die because of how many tactics they can pull off. It's even a viable short ranged CC army in certain conditions when you take characters and vendettas. Colonel Straken, Ministorum Priests, Rough Riders, Marbo, Captain Al' Rahem, Ogyrns, Penal Legionaries (with rending), and Commissars mounted in flyer's and flanking forces spells bad news to armies like the Tau and slower IG forces...

Foot guard are pretty much useless, as are most Leman Russes.
Guard are regarded as insanely powerful mainly because of melta vets in chimeras and Vendettas. If you don't take either of those two options the guard range from "fair" to "terrible".
Bare in mind when people on dakka say IG are top tier, they mean meltavets and vendettas. Oh, Manticores are pretty sweet I guess, but you're limitted to 3 in a list so not really OTT.

DemetriDominov wrote:^

This. I likely will play IG until the day I die because of how many tactics they can pull off. It's even a viable short ranged CC army in certain conditions when you take characters and vendettas. Colonel Straken, Ministorum Priests, Rough Riders, Marbo, Captain Al' Rahem, Ogyrns, Penal Legionaries (with rending), and Commissars mounted in flyer's and flanking forces spells bad news to armies like the Tau and slower IG forces...

And let's not forget that the Guard are the undisputed kings of Apocalypse. I'd say only the Orks really come close to them in Apoc.

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

At 500 points? Idk.. you put the IG in front of those tanks before they break cover and you can kiss whatever is hiding in there goodbye... because when the pie plates hit.. because they do.. it's not pretty. And if we're playing standard rules where only 25% of the entire board has cover (and the IG are in half of it) the other army better run quick.

Joey wrote:What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

Seriously, give it a break.

Foot guard isn't just a bunch of low leadership goobers sitting around with lasguns. It's stubborn rerollable Ld9 units that have more weapon upgrades than any other guard build hidden deep in implacable throngs of soldiers. Come up with any chimera-based build, and I can guarantee pack more killing power with a foot list for the same number of points.

Yes, russes won't do as much damage per point in a single turn as a vendetta (though not THAT much less), but tell me, what's going to survive longer, AV14 partially hiding behind other stuff, or an AV12 vehicle that can basically never get a cover save without giving themselves a vehicle shaken result? The russ doesn't do as much with a single volley, but you're getting more volleys off. Plus, a russ' cannon actually hits more than it misses. Assuming it can scatter 2" and still count as a hit enough, it's a 1/3 chance to hit outright, and of the rest you can roll a 5 on the scatter die and still have the blast marker touching the exact spot you were aiming at.

Kain wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:^

This. I likely will play IG until the day I die because of how many tactics they can pull off. It's even a viable short ranged CC army in certain conditions when you take characters and vendettas. Colonel Straken, Ministorum Priests, Rough Riders, Marbo, Captain Al' Rahem, Ogyrns, Penal Legionaries (with rending), and Commissars mounted in flyer's and flanking forces spells bad news to armies like the Tau and slower IG forces...

And let's not forget that the Guard are the undisputed kings of Apocalypse. I'd say only the Orks really come close to them in Apoc.

That and they do well in CoD as far as I've heard.. I never really got into that supplement.... but i'd play it just so I could field Colossi and destroy buildings and everything in them...

At 500 points? Idk.. you put the IG in front of those tanks before they break cover and you can kiss whatever is hiding in there goodbye... because when the pie plates hit.. because they do.. it's not pretty. And if we're playing standard rules where only 25% of the entire board has cover (and the IG are in half of it) the other army better run quick.

Librarian - 100pts
Assault Squad, Melta Gun, Infernus Pistol, razorback - 145 pts
Assault Squad, Melta Gun, Infernus Pistol, razorback - 145 pts
Death Company*5 - 100 pts
The razors go flat out turn one and pop smoke. Those Russes each have ~25% chance of a)hitting and b)getting through cover, that's before you get to roll armour penetration. So if we're being very generous, you get a 50% chance to get a single penetrating hit on them.
Turn 2 the razorbacks go Combat Speed and unload their cargo right next to your Russes, 4 BS4 Meltaguns at easily half range, and the DC deep-strike in if they can.
The Russes will at the very least be surpressed, and you'll have a squad of FNP MEQ right on top of your infantry so forget about using them to help the tanks.

Vaktathi wrote:$385 MSRP actually, there's 11 of them.

That said, few IG armies are cheap, with IG you can often expect to spend 1.5-3x as much as you'd spend on an equivalent cost SM army.

However, it was just an example of what I was talking about in terms of army design theory. Cost is an altogether different discussion.

I think your biggest point which I completely agree with is redundancy. "Next man up!"

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

Seriously, give it a break.

Foot guard isn't just a bunch of low leadership goobers sitting around with lasguns. It's stubborn rerollable Ld9 units that have more weapon upgrades than any other guard build hidden deep in implacable throngs of soldiers. Come up with any chimera-based build, and I can guarantee pack more killing power with a foot list for the same number of points.

Yes, russes won't do as much damage per point in a single turn as a vendetta (though not THAT much less), but tell me, what's going to survive longer, AV14 partially hiding behind other stuff, or an AV12 vehicle that can basically never get a cover save without giving themselves a vehicle shaken result? The russ doesn't do as much with a single volley, but you're getting more volleys off. Plus, a russ' cannon actually hits more than it misses. Assuming it can scatter 2" and still count as a hit enough, it's a 1/3 chance to hit outright, and of the rest you can roll a 5 on the scatter die and still have the blast marker touching the exact spot you were aiming at.

I know full well how difficult blobs are to break, doesn't make them worthwhile since they're still very expensive damage sponges. It is amusing, though, that you lecture me about the survivability of Vendettas vs Russes, yet for some reason don't see why putting troops in transports makes them more survivable. Even covered guard, even with a 3+ from camo-cloak/GTG will die very easily with such a low toughness, since anything S5 or above will wound on 2s. Compare to melta vets who can get 2D6 armour penetration on anything within 24" (12" chimera move, 6" walk, 6" half range), and remain completely immune to small arms fire.

It's also worth noting that Vendettas do their job a lot better than Russes do theirs. Moving 6" and still being able to fire all weapons makes it a lot easier to avoid cover/get rear/side armour on enemy armour. Russes just snipe at unmeched MEQ (assuming there are any, it's reasonable to assume there will be 1-2 turns at the beginning with no infantry targets whatsoever), and will die easily to Melta, the prevailant anti-tank. Being resistant to lascannons is useful, but when it's such a low threat anyway it probably won't bother your enemy much.

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

Seriously, give it a break.

Foot guard isn't just a bunch of low leadership goobers sitting around with lasguns. It's stubborn rerollable Ld9 units that have more weapon upgrades than any other guard build hidden deep in implacable throngs of soldiers. Come up with any chimera-based build, and I can guarantee pack more killing power with a foot list for the same number of points.

Use the IG list I posted on the previous page

The primary issue with footguard is fragility, not firepower, firepower isn't the primary issue in all honesty. Unless you're playing blobs (in which case you lose a lot of the flexibility of platoons for maneuver and maximum target engagement) such units tend to be highly fragile and vulnerable to assault, with the heavy weapons squads a particularly weak achilles heel for any footslogging IG army, being Ld7 and vulnerable to forced LD tests from one S6+ wound with little or no mitigation possible. This is in addition to generally being much more static and thus easier to engage and harder to take/seize objectives and harder to get weapons into position to properly engage opponents with when compared with a mechanized army.

Yes, russes won't do as much damage per point in a single turn as a vendetta (though not THAT much less), but tell me, what's going to survive longer, AV14 partially hiding behind other stuff, or an AV12 vehicle that can basically never get a cover save without giving themselves a vehicle shaken result?

They serve entirely different purposes for the most part. Russ tanks are generally there to engage infantry of sorts, the Vendettas are there to engage tanks and transport infantry. The Russ tanks are more hardy to most ranged AT fire directed at the front and sides, the Vendettas have some definite survivability bonuses that AV doesn't compensate for (e.g. the ability to move far from enemy units, the ability to always generate your own cover save, Scouts, Outflank, etc). They are different things with different uses. Ideally you use the Vendettas to pop the transports that have dudes the Russ tanks want to shoot with their big boomey guns.

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

You are joking right?

I honestly have more direct hits than complete misses. It may scatter but only a couple inches usually or into another unit.

I will admit a 500 point guard unit can bring a demolisher and very few armies bring anything to handle that which is why in 500 point matches I deliberatly NOT bring one.

Ailaros wrote: Plus, a russ' cannon actually hits more than it misses. Assuming it can scatter 2" and still count as a hit enough, it's a 1/3 chance to hit outright, and of the rest you can roll a 5 on the scatter die and still have the blast marker touching the exact spot you were aiming at.

^ spot on. The same thing I was saing.

Silentway wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

You are joking right?

I honestly have more direct hits than comple misses. It may scatter but only a couple inches usually or into another unit. Most of the time I usually get direct hits and I love it.

There is a 1/3 chance of a direct hit. The fact that this happens "usually" for you is a sign that you are blessed by the Gods and as such have no place in this mortal plane.
Go now, your homeland needs you!

Joey wrote:

Silentway wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

You are joking right?

I honestly have more direct hits than comple misses. It may scatter but only a couple inches usually or into another unit. Most of the time I usually get direct hits and I love it.

There is a 1/3 chance of a direct hit. The fact that this happens "usually" for you is a sign that you are blessed by the Gods and as such have no place in this mortal plane.
Go now, your homeland needs you!

Your going to be killing models either way. Like Alerios and I pointed out, even if it scatters you'll often times still end up killing several units.

The die has 1/3 chance to get a direct hit. You also have a slim chance to roll a 1,1 or 1,2 on drift still get a direct hit. Only time drift really comes into play is if you're rolling over 6 and drifting 3+ inches off target.

redbeast001 wrote:1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack
1x Medusa
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack
thats it

Its not IG that has no teeth. It is your lists.

Silentway wrote:

Joey wrote:

Silentway wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

You are joking right?

I honestly have more direct hits than comple misses. It may scatter but only a couple inches usually or into another unit. Most of the time I usually get direct hits and I love it.

There is a 1/3 chance of a direct hit. The fact that this happens "usually" for you is a sign that you are blessed by the Gods and as such have no place in this mortal plane.
Go now, your homeland needs you!

Your going to be killing models either way. Like Alerios and I pointed out, even if it scatters you'll often times still end up killing several units.

Several models*
And they will have cover saves. It works out, on average, at about 1-2 MEQ kills per turn. I don't regard this as satisfactory, you may, and fair play to you.

Sure on the low side you will get 1-2 per shot from a single Russ but from 3 Russ's thats about 3-6 deaths from just the main gun, not even including the additional weapons. I was playing my buddies BT Army and I wiped a 10 man CC squad with 3 Russ's in a single turn

Joey wrote:

Silentway wrote:

Joey wrote:

Kain wrote:
HQ
Company Command Squad
TROOPS
Veteran Squad
Veteran Squad
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank

Where is your god now?

What you have there is two pie plates that will miss more often than hit (and always give cover) and a load of lasguns. It'd be easily countered by any semi-competent army.

You are joking right?

I honestly have more direct hits than comple misses. It may scatter but only a couple inches usually or into another unit. Most of the time I usually get direct hits and I love it.

There is a 1/3 chance of a direct hit. The fact that this happens "usually" for you is a sign that you are blessed by the Gods and as such have no place in this mortal plane.
Go now, your homeland needs you!

Actually, chance of getting "direct" hit with BS 3 is 39%, not 33%. And chances of getting full strength hit against Rhino-sized target is slightly above 48%. Which I'd personally count as "direct hit" when shooting at single vehicle. So if he's shooting vehicles, it might actually happen "usually".

Foot guard are more fragile?

For the price of two meltavet squads in a pair of chimeras, you can get a PCS with 3 meltaguns and a 31-man power blob, also with melta guns.

The vets are two tin cans that can get popped easily by dedicated anti-tank weapons (or, as some people seem to believe, even by autocannons), and the guys inside are a few casualties, or a whiff of close combat away from running straight off the board (along with all 4 KP). Meanwhile the foot guard are going to laugh off autocannon fire, especially if they're in cover (which is much easier to get for infantry units than for vehicles), and when close combat comes by, they're more likely to win outright, then to lose, and they're certainly not running away when close combat comes by.

Does an infantry squad outside of a chimera gain more durability by being put into a chimera? Certainly. Is a mech list overall more durable? Hardly.

Vaktathi wrote:Use the IG list I posted on the previous page

Vaktathi wrote:
2000pts

CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Hydra
Hydra
Hydra


There's tons of everything in here, especially armor. 17 AV12 vehicles, 85 infantry, 20 melta guns, 9 TL lascannons, 12 autocannons (6 of which are TL and ignore SMF saves), 11 multilasers, 9 heavy bolters, 5 heavy flamers, 6 grenade launchers (72 heavy/special weapons), and 9 scoring units.

CCS: 4x Melta, master of ordnance
CCS: 4x Melta

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

You've got 85 infantry wounds, I've got 169. You've got 20 meltaguns, I've got 26. You've got 9 TL lascannons, I've got 18 lascannons. You've got 12 autocannons, I've got 16. You have 11 multilasers, 9 heavy bolters, 5 heavy flamers, 6 grenade launchers, I have 90 FRFable lasguns, and over 300 bayonet attacks on the charge. You have 72 heavy/special weapons and 9 scoring units, I have 73 weapon upgrades (all of them better than some of those grenade launchers and heavy flamers that you're counting) on 22 scoring units, that, if I want, can offer as few KP as your list.

Most importantly, your stuff has no close combat abilities whatsoever. Once your parking lot gets multicharged, the cans and, more importantly, everybody inside them, is just plain screwed. In the foot list, it is very easy for everyone to have cover, and digging out nearly 170 guardsmen out of 4+ cover (2+ if I really want it) with shooting is going to be impossible in only 6 turns, and if they get close, they get horribly bonked in close combat, rather than just steamrolling over whatever they come across.

Mech armies are good, but to say that they are more durable or have more killing power over all is incorrect. Their extra mobility allows them to apply their killing power in a more focused fashion (which is why they're good), and they're cheaper to buy and faster to paint, but that's where their awesomeness over foot guard stops.

Luide wrote:
Actually, chance of getting "direct" hit with BS 3 is 39%, not 33%. And chances of getting full strength hit against Rhino-sized target is slightly above 48%. Which I'd personally count as "direct hit" when shooting at single vehicle. So if he's shooting vehicles, it might actually happen "usually".

If you're shooting LRBTs at Rhinos, something has either gone VERY right, or VERY wrong.

Op, your list is pretty underwhelming, to be honest:

1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet

- These things are being run as foot guard, so you have a small foot list in your army, but you don't have any reason for a lot of it. For example, what are you using Creed for? 90 points (or, as I like to think of it, 1.5 Infantry Squads with power weapons) is too expensive to be able to use Honor of Cadia on one squad and it arguably makes power blobs WORSE, and you only have 2 squads in that army that actually require orders to be effective. Kell makes sense for the HWS, but one of the tricks to making HWS better is spam and then dropping your CCS in the middle of them and let them benefit from the Standard and get back in the fight. Two is not spam. You only have one power blob, so you're not overwhelming them with target priority; you're generously offering 200+ points to their bored small-arms units and giving easy choices for S6 targets. Truely, your army appears a feast for all to partake.

3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Medusa

- I think the Executioner is overrated. It's not bad, but it's not the most amazing thing on Earth either. Are you putting the Plasma Cannons on them? If not, you should reconsider. I'm also seeing that you have 4 HS choices, which means you're squadroning two of those tanks. Don't even squadron two Executioners; they're too expensive. Two LRBTs is fine. I even squadron two LRDs occasionally, though that gets expensive. I'm also not a fan of the Medusa, but that's neither here nor there.

1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack

- I assume these go together? Why Bastonne? He's one of the more underwhelming special characters in the IG codex, and that's saying something. His BID order is cool, but he doesn't have any mechanism built in for getting far enough away from a Command Squad to generally warrant it, and he has to be outside of his ride to use it. His LD10 is handy, but see my previous statement, along with the fact that IG are usually too fragile to NEED LD10 on a 10 man strong squad. Mind you, this guy is costing you another Infantry Squad to use. Why mix the Plasma Gun with the Melta Guns? Not necessarily saying it's a bad idea yet, I just want to know what your justification is. I mean, you took Demolitions, so you have melta bombs. I would think logically you'd want all Melta Guns so that if you somehow didn't explode the vehicle you were trying to kill, you could charge it and hit it with meltabomb attacks as a last resort.

And it's not like you have BAD choices individually here, well, except maybe Bastonne. It just looks like you skimmed the lists of everything that was working for everyone else, and then you picked individual things from each one of those without considering the little things that make them so good.

As far as you opponent goes, you say he killed all three russes and your HWS, with "Tesla Disabled". I've only played against Newcrons once. Is that the power that hits everything on the board during night fight? Maybe you should reserve to get around it? Also, how did it kill the russes? I thought it hit side armor, on S7, unless I'm getting my rules completely mixed up. At any rate, you could try reserving things that wouldn't be able to hit for want of night fight anyway, or outflanking some stuff to get closer to him. Those are just a few of the things that come to mind.

Joey wrote:
Librarian - 100pts
Assault Squad, Melta Gun, Infernus Pistol, razorback - 145 pts
Assault Squad, Melta Gun, Infernus Pistol, razorback - 145 pts
Death Company*5 - 100 pts
The razors go flat out turn one and pop smoke. Those Russes each have ~25% chance of a)hitting and b)getting through cover, that's before you get to roll armour penetration. So if we're being very generous, you get a 50% chance to get a single penetrating hit on them.
Turn 2 the razorbacks go Combat Speed and unload their cargo right next to your Russes, 4 BS4 Meltaguns at easily half range, and the DC deep-strike in if they can.
The Russes will at the very least be surpressed, and you'll have a squad of FNP MEQ right on top of your infantry so forget about using them to help the tanks.

That's assuming you get first turn. If you don't and the IG breaks your Razorbacks.. you're dead by turn two. I think it's good to say those lists both have a 50/50 chance of wining... which is exactly how a good and balanced army should be.. that way it's simply tactics that come into play.

Ailaros wrote:

CCS: 4x Melta, master of ordnance
CCS: 4x Melta

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

I love this list except good luck painting them. It took me months just to paint 40 guardsmen.

Vaktathi wrote:The primary issue with footguard is fragility, not firepower, firepower isn't the primary issue in all honesty. Unless you're playing blobs (in which case you lose a lot of the flexibility of platoons for maneuver and maximum target engagement) such units tend to be highly fragile and vulnerable to assault, with the heavy weapons squads a particularly weak achilles heel for any footslogging IG army, being Ld7 and vulnerable to forced LD tests from one S6+ wound with little or no mitigation possible. This is in addition to generally being much more static and thus easier to engage and harder to take/seize objectives and harder to get weapons into position to properly engage opponents with when compared with a mechanized army.

I stopped reading after Unless you're playing blobs. A Stubborn, Leadership 9, twenty-one model blob is alot tougher to crack then ten, ld8 models cowering in a 12-10-10 Chimera, whose only saving grace is the transport itself.

Ailaros wrote:Foot guard are more fragile?

For the price of two meltavet squads in a pair of chimeras, you can get a PCS with 3 meltaguns and a 31-man power blob, also with melta guns.

This is *ONLY* the blobbed infantry squads, and only if you blob them, which comes with associated disadvantages (fewer scoring units, able to engage fewer targets, issues of firepower overkill, etc) with it's survivability/KPvalue bonus. The meltas are also of noticably less value because they are less mobile with lower BS and much easier to neutralize their usefulness through an assault (even if it's just keeping them tied up). That's also 1 unit in place of up to 4, which has it's notable advantages.

The vets are two tin cans that can get popped easily by dedicated anti-tank weapons

Which is why you don't just take two, if you've got a dozen+ tin cans on the board, it's a lot less easy, and they're functionally immune or damn near it to a lot of weapons.

and the guys inside are a few casualties, or a whiff of close combat away from running straight off the board (along with all 4 KP).

So are all the supporting units that make the blob squads work, and they don't have metal boxes that have to be eaten through.

Meanwhile the foot guard are going to laugh off autocannon fire,

Singular autocannons sure, massed autocannons still aren't anything to laugh at, and most of the time it's not autocannons that the IG player is facing, rather fielding themselves. Additionally, your blob squads may not fear autocannon fire much, but the heavy weapon squads necessary to support them will find autocannons quite terrifying, as a single successful wound will not only deplete their firepower by 33%, but also force a morale test at Ld7, and the command squads aren't much better off.

especially if they're in cover (which is much easier to get for infantry units than for vehicles)

Entirely true, but smoke launchers do very much definitely count for quite a bit. That said, even with a table that sticks to the terrain guidelines quite well, you often may be forced to deploy in an area where significant cover for your infantry is not available or not where you need your infantry to be.

and when close combat comes by, they're more likely to win outright, then to lose, and they're certainly not running away when close combat comes by.

The difference is that with the mechanized list, they have to pop the tank first. That can be an issue for many opponents. Additionally, with a decent mech list, you can lose squads in CC and not care, because if the enemy is no longer stuck in CC you can shoot at them again.

CC isn't a huge issue for the mech list. Most of the time they'll have a hard (not impossible, but certainly not easy) time cracking the tanks in CC unless it's an MC or something like Nob Bikers or TH/SS termi's (and movement can greatly mitigate that). Much of the time opposing units will either be grossly overkill in CC and thus wasted points, quickly destroying any disembarked unit and leaving them vulnerable to return fire, or stuck in the open with unlockable tanks after trying to kill them in CC.

that said, again, all of the supporting units, the Command Squads and Heavy Weapons units, in infantry lists also tend to be hideously vulnerable to CC as well.

Does an infantry squad outside of a chimera gain more durability by being put into a chimera? Certainly. Is a mech list overall more durable? Hardly.

Again, aside from the blob squads, very much so. The blob squad build relies on having heavy weapons squads and command squads to back it up, units that are very easily engaged and destroyed/broken/suppressed by even just a couple of bolters and just about anything in CC.

CCS: 4x Melta, master of ordnance
CCS: 4x Melta

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

PCS: 4x Melta
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon, commissar, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
PIS: autocannon, meltagun, power weapon
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x lascannons
HWS: 3x autocannons

This is a prime example of a list that has all the weaknesses I pointed out above, it relies heavily on fragile, easily destroyed squads for all of its support. Yeah, it has more raw AT firepower, but functionally this means on average you're getting 9 lascannon hits versus 7, and 16 autocannon hits versus 15, a slight increase yes, but not all *that* huge. To really make a difference you need to make full use of Bring it Down orders, it looks like you've got no voxes anywhere, and all it requires to eliminate that capability from your army is destroying two 5man T3 5+sv units.

You've also got a lot less ranged anti-infantry firepower and no templates of any kind.

You've got 85 infantry wounds, I've got 169.

Much of which are LD7 or Ld8 at best and can be very easily broken even by stuff like drop pod/rhino bolter fire. An outflanking opponent would have a field day with this list, one genestealer unit or a tac squad getting into a ruins where your Lascannons have situated themselves could clear a flank in one assault round.

You've got 20 meltaguns, I've got 26. You've got 9 TL lascannons, I've got 18 lascannons. You've got 12 autocannons, I've got 16.

My heavy weapons can move and in some cases outflank, and don't need to rely on orders to TL. My heavy weapons cannot be forced to fall back 42% of the time if they manage to land a single S6+ hit. Your meltaguns have little mobility and thus easily worked around, and the units packing lots of them are easily engaged and destroyed being 5 wound T 3 5+sv Ld7/8 units that very clearly stand out from the blob squads.

You HW's are going to be very awkward in Dawn of War being totally unusable or turn 1 (whereas the mech list can roll on, utilize searchlights and still engage) and likely in awkward positions turn 2 if they want to fire straight away, and have great trouble dealing with range/LoS issues that the mech list will have an easier time.

You have 11 multilasers, 9 heavy bolters, 5 heavy flamers, 6 grenade launchers.

I have 90 FRFable lasgunsand over 300 bayonet attacks on the charge.

Most of my weapons can hit the opponent from turn 1 across the board and have a potential 42" total threat range and can also much easier engage units like MC's and even light vehicles. Heavy Flamers are an incredibly useful utility weapon for clearing medium infantry deep strikers/outflankers/off objectives that your list will likely have to devote much more resources to engaging.

Furthermore, 90 FRFSRF lasguns in 3 shot range will, (assuming you can get all those orders off, not a small caveat) on average, against say, a Tac squad, produce 10 marine casualties. The 11 mutlilasers, 9 heavy bolters, and 6 grenade launchers (we won't count the heavy flamers) will produce 8.5. Only slightly fewer with *far* more range and flexibility and with an actual AP that can matter against non-MEQ units, and again, none of that is counting the Heavy Flamers.


You can talk a lot about 300 bayonet attacks, you're never going to utilize anywhere near a reasonable fraction of that in one round. You might get 60, but you're certainly not going to be able to fit all those guys in engagement range or even most in combat. I could also tank shock 14 things in one turn, that's a meaningless statistic however too just as 300 potential bayonet attacks is.

You have 72 heavy/special weapons and 9 scoring units, I have 73 weapon upgrades (all of them better than some of those grenade launchers and heavy flamers that you're counting)

The powerweapons are completely wasted unless blobbed, in which case you've got 5 long ranged heavy weapons and 5 short ranged meltaguns and 6 power weapons all wanting to be used at entirely different ranges and quite often will be mutually exclusive, meaning you've got a lot of upgrades that quite often won't be utilized. The mech list won't run into that issue as much.

I'm curious as to why you think the heavy flamers and GL's are so useless, Heavy Flamers are quite fearsome to anything that isn't a Space Marine and goes quite well with the meltaguns. The GL's aren't too scary, but complement the Autocannons in role quite well.

on 22 scoring units, that, if I want, can offer as few KP as your list.

You're scoring count functionally is likely to be much less if making use of those units as blob squads, and they can be tank shocked off objectives, where the mechanized troops cannot (and can in fact tank shock an opponent off and take an objective for themselves).

Most importantly, your stuff has no close combat abilities whatsoever. Once your parking lot gets multicharged, the cans and, more importantly, everybody inside them, is just plain screwed.

Not at all. You're making the tanks out to be much more vulnerable than they are and assuming they're all always stationary and making it easy. A half-awake player should be able to keep such an event from occurring. First, they have to crack the cans, not always easy (not saying super hard, but not a cakewalk), unless they're hitting like 4 stationary tanks with TH/SS termi's on a flank, likely they aren't cracking all that many. Even a penetrating hit will only do it 1 in 3 times. Even if they crack the cans, the infantry then have a chance to do their thing as well when they disembark as they still have a decent chance of sticking around.

In fact, most CC an opponent can bring to bear against this mech list is likely to be wasted in one of two ways. Either too weak and unable to effectively engage the tanks, or totally overkill and thus over-invested. This usually means they overkill something and end up out where they can get shot again or are stuck unengaged when attacking the tanks (as they can't be locked either way) and stuck in a position where they can get shot again.


TL;DR Assuming decent cover for the infantry on otherwise planet bowling ball on pitched battle deployment with nothing outflanking, yeah, the infantry list may stand in good stead relative to the mech list. Otherwise the mech list has some very clear advantages





Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:
I stopped reading after Unless you're playing blobs. A Stubborn, Leadership 9, twenty-one model blob is alot tougher to crack then ten, ld8 models cowering in a 12-10-10 Chimera, whose only saving grace is the transport itself.

Great of you to ignore a point because you want to argue a point I didn't make. I said specifically what I was referring to in that post, which was not Stubborn Ld9 blobs. That said, it all depends on what is being thrown at it, and the mech unit isn't depending on other fragile infantry squads to do a lot of heavy lifting and augment its effectiveness that the blobs will. I conceded that blobs were hard to destroy, it doesn't make the rest of my point you chose to ignore any less valid, and the blobs rely on those easy to squish infantry units for their support. With that however, a mere 21 strong blob isn't going to be significantly more survivable than a mechanized unit depending on what's being thrown at it, a flamer or two with some bolt pistols followed by an assault will typically see the unit just as dead as a couple meltas into a transport followed by an assault into the disembarked unit. Blobs really get going good at 3 squads or so strong.

From the giant text wall, I took two points.

1.) AV12 is fragile, but so is HWSs.

2.) Mech commanders can always avoid close combat.

The second is flat out untrue. In a parking lot situation (like you're proposing), there simply isn't enough space to get away from close combat. Without being skimmers, an armored wall turns into a traffic jam in a hurry.

I've seen a 10-elf jetlock council charge across the board and catch 6 vehicles in assault, wrecking 4 of them with their S9 wychblades. The next turn, they multi-assaulted again, blowing up another two vehicles and throwing two vet squads off the table. A single unit practically tabled its opponent by the bottom of turn 3. I've likewise seen drop pod BT go on a RAMPAGE against parking lots. They show up, throw around melta, and when you shoot them back, they move closer to you and then multi-charge with power fists and krak grenades. You can slightly delay close combat (although, with that many vehicles in the backfield, that would be a challenge, at best), but you cannot outright stop your opponents from getting into close combat, if that's what they've built their lists towards.

To the first point, you're splitting hairs. Are HWSs fragile? Yes. Are vendettas also very fragile? Yes. The difference is that once the support units are burned away, you're left with a bunch of worthless GLAC squads in cans in a mech list, while you're left with the hard, angry core of implacable infantry with kit to handle anything in the game when it comes to infantry. Plus, swap out HWSs for russes, and you're now looking at an army that literally doesn't care at all about a vast majority of your weapons. Once the vendettas are swatted away, the bubble wrapped exterminators or LBRTs will be literally invincible.

A mech list is made up of ONLY fragile units, while a foot list is, at most, made of SOME fragile units. A mech list is unable to do anything in 1/3 of the game turn (assault), while a foot list can be effective in every turn of the game.

With both lists, you can put out a staggering amount of firepower, but foot lists give you more durability over all (and thus, killing power over the long term). Foot lists get more killing power and more durability. Mech lists get less of those, but are able to focus their killing power better. Both are good. To say that foot lists are just utterly non-viable because mech lists are just so much better is crazy talk.

The viability of IG has as much to do with real life costs as it does with firepower and point costs. Blob guard is really really expensive to play, while mech guard is only really expensive. Also, blob guard takes a while to play which has to factor into tournament play.

Ailaros wrote:
2.) Mech commanders can always avoid close combat.

That's not what he said.
He said either the unit will be pretty weak (infantry with krak, anything with strength 4/5, individual powerfists) due to needing 4s to hit and a 5 or a 6 to kill it, or will be an uber strong and expensive unit that's just popped a 55 point transport and is standing in front of a guard gunline. If a 200 point TH/SS termies popped a chimera, it'd be facing ~20 plasma gun shots in my shooting phase. I'd chalk that down as a win, personally.

Here's what I've gathered from the debate on this thread.

Firstly, the Imperial Guard are not useless. I honestly thought this was a joke to be honest.

Second, some of those who play mechguard seem to think that the only way to play guard is by spamming chimeras and vets- which in my personal opinion is played out and more for less than tactical players.

Third, even when someone tries to come on here and say that foot guard is viable, mech guard players swoop in and declare heresy of the highest maginitude. Which is rediculous. And then there are some others who are acting like no more than your average troll- not naming names.

But I will throw my hat in with the foot guard. I've played both, and while using huge amounts of guardsmen has a bigger learning curve, I find that it is much more rewarding and much more deadly. Ailaros' blob list looks pretty much identical to one I have been fielding recently (but I have some mortars thrown in too) and I've had massive success.

24 heavy weapons bases is an insane amount of weapons to take out and is a heck of a lot more difficult than some of you claim.