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Hi there people of Dakka!

By any chance, does any IG players feel like there army is a waste?
Because I have about 3k of Guard, I am getting my a** handed to me on a platter.
Just the other day I was in a match against my friend who runs 2k Necrons.
I feel that Guard has no... "Teeth" against the new armys that are coming out.

Any one else feel the same way?

No, guard are still really, really good. Some would say still more top tier than necrons.

Guard are a top tier army. They should be able to effectively counter most any other army, and with 3,000 points to draw on you should be able to field a variety of useful units. What sort of lists are you running?

How so?
Because I have noticed that the only useful list requires running Vendetta Sqn and Armour Sqn

Veteran Squads loaded with Meltaguns in Chimeras are a very common choice, because they are almost always useful.

Big blobs of Guardsmen with a Commissar and some power weapons are also very useful.

Almost any Leman Russ variant is a dead-set killer.

It all depends on how you structure your lists. So, what sort of list were you running in that last game, for example?

1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack
1x Medusa
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack
thats it

1st turn he Killed my Heavy Weapon Squads with Tesla Disabled, all three Russ

End of game never killed a unit of his...

Your list doesn't look terrible, although I have no love for Executioners.

If he went first, where were your tanks? What unit did you use CREEEEED!s tactical genuis on? Your advantage with a list like that should have been long range mobile firepower, and you should have really made the Necrons work hard to be able to disable three tanks on the first turn. They should have been out of range or in cover.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of tank squadrons. I think the limitations outweigh the benefits.

Guard is good unless you bring foot Guard.

IG are amazing. They are one of the few armies that can deal with GK at tournaments.

rockerbikie wrote:Guard is good unless you bring foot Guard.

Something like that. My Guard are mostly on foot (except for a couple of Vendettas with meltavets), and while they dominate the early game, they have neither the mobility nor survivability to remain a threat once the enemy gets to them. Once you start mounting up in Chimeras, that changes entirely...

What about swapping out the officer of the fleet for an astropath and reserving 1 or more of your russes?

Guard are still near the top.

Throw this down at the table at 1500pts and watch your opponent cringe.


Company Command Squad - 4x Meltagun, Chimera/145pts

Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts

Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts

Manticore - /160pts
Manticore - /160pts
Hydras (2) - /150pts

For bigger point matches, just add more melta vets, psyker battle squads, and another CCS.

Guard are definately a useful army. I run a mostly foot guard, depending on the game the odd chimera or hellhound as well/ Last game I played I blew away most of a spacewolf force, for the loss of a few squads, the time before that lost to but barely a daemon force (most off his guys were down to 1-2 in a unit) Personally I play troop heavy with a lot of supporting teams which I find works well.

Its certainly possible to win with either a mech or a foot guard list, although mech is the more popular I prefer foot but thats just personal preference. I think Its down to how you play them more likely. At that level you should be able to field a lot of firepower.

redbeast001 wrote:Hi there people of Dakka!

By any chance, does any IG players feel like there army is a waste?
Because I have about 3k of Guard, I am getting my a** handed to me on a platter.
Just the other day I was in a match against my friend who runs 2k Necrons.
I feel that Guard has no... "Teeth" against the new armys that are coming out.

Any one else feel the same way?

depend on army lists.
I don't understand why. for a five hundread points army list. a group of Thai grognards adviced that an army list that has a good chance of winning comprises of TWO veteran sections and two Leman Russ MBTs (as of current codex)? my friend seems to say that a company of two platoons, each having a strengh of two sections. are a big failure (regardless how well you equip any)

rockerbikie wrote:Guard is good unless you bring foot Guard.

Strongly disagree, foot guard can be very effective as you can get away with very low KP numbers all tucked away in 40 man blobs, I ran one for ages doing very well at tourneys facing a variety of lists inc GK, lash chaos, horde orks and the likes.

Maybe you're just not good at the game chief, put some effort into it and practice

redbeast001 wrote:1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack
1x Medusa
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack
thats it

1st turn he Killed my Heavy Weapon Squads with Tesla Disabled, all three Russ

End of game never killed a unit of his...

Just my opinion but that's not a good build at all. From my experience it's best to pick an Identity with IG, Armored or Footy. You have a wierd mix of everything.

Personally I'd drop Kreed, Kell and bastonne, MoO and OoF and exchange those executioners to regular Leman Russ's. A single Medusa is also wasted imho. Your heavy weapons squads are ok, might be able to add another. I would drop the bolter and medi-pack from the PCS.

I personally try not to bring more than 1 named character a batle if I even bring one at all. Lots of points that may ore maynot get used.

Get some more chimeras and special weapons

Bongo_clive wrote:Maybe you're just not good at the game chief, put some effort into it and practice

What a helpful suggestion for the guy. You'll go far here.
To OP, guard are still listed as a top army, but it doesn't look like you're utilizing their biggest assets: lots of tanks or lots of bodies. I don't play guard yet, but I probably will when I get mantic's praetorian line.

IG are the toughest army out there. Crazy crazy good. Newcrons are just new, you dont understand them, and you always fear what you don't understand.

guard are still upper end of the power curve. i find the most comptative guard players set up across their deployment area to avoid multi assaults or the opponent just mowing through everything. dawn of war is especially good for guard if you go first as tyou can force your opponent back and spread your forces around.

also guard players spreading enough up a side with a blob can really limit outflanking troops. it works well vs my eldar and orks anyway. another common mistake vs my orks is wasting all the fire on my nob bikers. they can only hit so much if you speead but peopole put alot of anti tank on them instead of against my battlewagons which contain otns of boyz and another nobz squad to crumpt stuff, limit the mobility of your opponent and don't fixate on one target . when guard does this they tend to pull off a win vs my orks (even though they died so it don't count, and those who live are jsut getting more boys to come back and deliver a proper stompin)

Blacksails wrote:Guard are still near the top.

Throw this down at the table at 1500pts and watch your opponent cringeyawn .


Company Command Squad - 4x Meltagun, Chimera/145pts

Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Plasma Gun, Chimera/170pts
Veteran Squad - 3x Meltagun, Chimera/155pts

Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts
Vendetta - /130pts

Manticore - /160pts
Manticore - /160pts
Hydras (2) - /150pts

For bigger point matches, just add more melta vets, psyker battle squads, and another CCS.

That is such a predictable list...

redbeast001 wrote:1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack
1x Medusa
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack

Well, your Command Squad looks a bit on the expensive side. And maybe place your tanks out of line of sight if you're not going first...

Platoon command squads are basically special weapon squads. Drop the heavy bolter and extremely expensive medic and buy flamers, meltas, whatever. Your company command squad doesn't need Creed and Kell in it. Mixing blob/foot Guard and mechvet Guard is a little tricky and lacks focus. In your veteran squad, don't mix plasmas and meltas; stick to one task. Also, you really don't need bastonne or the demolition charge. I will say I've enjoyed using one before though.

lol, I don't think so. I think guard will always be decent, if not in the top three armies. They have so much variety, and so many different ways to be built, plus, they can more or less handle any new army that comes out (maybe not in a cost effective way. but they can)...

redbeast001 wrote:Hi there people of Dakka!

By any chance, does any IG players feel like there army is a waste?
Because I have about 3k of Guard, I am getting my a** handed to me on a platter.
Just the other day I was in a match against my friend who runs 2k Necrons.
I feel that Guard has no... "Teeth" against the new armys that are coming out.

Any one else feel the same way?

I have a friend that thinks the way you do. He refuses to learn proper deployment techniques, learn army strength and weaknesses, fails to understand the concept of bubble wrap, is not focused on focus fire, and ignores mobility as a tactic. He thinks that he should be able to plop down his army and win 70% of the time.

I guarantee 100% it is not the army.

culsandar wrote:

redbeast001 wrote:Hi there people of Dakka!

By any chance, does any IG players feel like there army is a waste?
Because I have about 3k of Guard, I am getting my a** handed to me on a platter.
Just the other day I was in a match against my friend who runs 2k Necrons.
I feel that Guard has no... "Teeth" against the new armys that are coming out.

Any one else feel the same way?

I have a friend that thinks the way you do. He refuses to learn proper deployment techniques, learn army strength and weaknesses, fails to understand the concept of bubble wrap, is not focused on focus fire, and ignores mobility as a tactic. He thinks that he should be able to plop down his army and win 70% of the time.

I guarantee 100% it is not the army.

Sorry, OP, but I've got to agree. Guard have got their strongest codex ever, and they have a great variety of viable builds. You've got to adapt to meet the challenge.

fails to understand the concept of bubble wrap

When everybody knows it's a stress relieving device!

redbeast001 wrote:1x 30 man Blob squad + Commie
3x Russ 2 Executioners, 1 Battle Tank
1x Chimera
1x Vets + Sgt Bastonne /w Plasma gun & 2 Melta guns & Deto Pack
1x Medusa
1x Company Command Squad, Kreed, Kell, Master of the Ordnance, Officer of Fleet
2x heavy weapons squads, 3 Auto Cannons, 3 Lascannons
1x Platoon Command Squad, Heavy Bolter, medi-pack
thats it

1st turn he Killed my Heavy Weapon Squads with Tesla Disabled, all three Russ

End of game never killed a unit of his...

Your army is rather sporadic, you have some mech guard, some blob guard, some artillery, three russes (which tanks are you squadroning? it is almost always a waste to squadron russes). My personal suggestion would be to ditch the executioners for some demolishers, it will save you like 25 points per tank and give you one str 10 AP 2 large blast instead of three small blasts. Next I would ditch the medusa or one tank, if you squadron russes you are being wasteful, there are better places to use points than redundant firepower.

Now you have a good number of points left over (between 185 points to 215 points) which you can invest in some more infantry or another veteran squad giving your army some more bulk. Some other areas you can save points are removing the medipack, getting rid of the MOO, and getting rid of creed and/or kell. Creed and Kell are good, but they are also expensives, and while FnP may sound nice, it is 30 points for a 5 man squad and FnP is not worth 6 points for guardsmen, MOO isn't bad at all, and he is much cheaper and easier to hide than a basilisk, but his shots are inaccurate, and it requires a static command squad, who make great specialist, load them out with plasma an wipe out a squad of termies in one turn of shooting, load them up with meltas and turn a LR to molten steel, load them up with flamers and torch any unit that has a 5+ save or worse (Orks, other Guard).

Overall your list isn't bad, it is just that you are spending points where you really don't need to, executioners are redundant, medipacks are overpriced. One thing you might try doing is making the medusa a one shot AT gun, give it bastion breacher shells, hide it in cover, when the enemy comes within 48" fire a strength 10 AP 1 2D6 pen (best penetration outside of apocalypse) small blast qnd let your 140 point vehicle be destroyed. If it survives that turn shoot something else, but it won't last long.

Kaldor wrote:I have no love for Executioners.

FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE THAT DOESN'T CARE FOR THE EXECUTIONER!

redbeast001 wrote:Hi there people of Dakka!

By any chance, does any IG players feel like there army is a waste?
Because I have about 3k of Guard, I am getting my a** handed to me on a platter.
Just the other day I was in a match against my friend who runs 2k Necrons.
I feel that Guard has no... "Teeth" against the new armys that are coming out.

Any one else feel the same way?

I haven't had too many issues aside from SW missile spam and a few abusive GK builds with my IG.

Looking at your list, it's got a little bit of everything, but isn't particularly focused in any way. You've got just enough armor to make an opponents AT guns useful and not overstretched, and likewise just enough infantry, and no redundancy. You're list basically allows the opponent to get use out of most of their gizmo's without overstretching any capacity and as soon as he kills one thing he's deprived your army of a capability it has no alternative for.

Also, you've got a ton of points invested in characters in a list where they really aren't going to be utilized to their fullest extent, and thus are largely wasted. Creed, Kell and Bastonne together can get you another infantry platoon, you don't have enough infantry to really make best use of Creed and Kell (they really only work with *lots* of infantry units), and Bastonne's unit is oddly kitted out (and he's really expensive for what he does)

When it comes to IG, the rule of 3 applies very strongly. If you can, take 3 of something, because 1 will miss and 1 will be dead.


IG work best when built to one extreme or another. If you go infantry, go ALL infantry. An opponent then insufficient anti-infantry weaponry in most cases and an abundance of essentially useless AT guns. Likewise, if you go mechanized, to ALL mechanized, and leave most of their assault units and anti-infantry capability wasted and their AT insufficient to counter the number of vehicles you're fielding.

For instance, this is a *very* cookie cutter extreme mech list, but it will get across the idea

2000pts

CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Hydra
Hydra
Hydra


There's tons of everything in here, especially armor. 17 AV12 vehicles, 85 infantry, 20 melta guns, 9 TL lascannons, 12 autocannons (6 of which are TL and ignore SMF saves), 11 multilasers, 9 heavy bolters, 5 heavy flamers, 6 grenade launchers (72 heavy/special weapons), and 9 scoring units.

Now, not only is there a ton of firepower there, but a ton of redundancy. It's going to be virtually impossible to deal with that many vehicles for many opponents, and they likely aren't going to be able to neutralize any one particular capability easily, the only thing being long range anti-AV14, in which case they'll need to engage 3 scouting AV12 fast skimmers. There's no single thing an opponent can engage and destroy to deprive you of a capability, and they'll likely have a lot of trouble not only dealing with that much armor, but also that many scoring units and you've still got 85 infantry on top of that.

Vaktathi wrote:

2000pts

CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
CCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

PCS: 4x Melta, ML/HF Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera
IS: AC/GL, ML/HB Chimera

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Hydra
Hydra
Hydra


There's tons of everything in here, especially armor. 17 AV12 vehicles, 85 infantry, 20 melta guns, 9 TL lascannons, 12 autocannons (6 of which are TL and ignore SMF saves), 11 multilasers, 9 heavy bolters, 5 heavy flamers, 6 grenade launchers (72 heavy/special weapons), and 9 scoring units.

Now, not only is there a ton of firepower there, but a ton of redundancy. It's going to be virtually impossible to deal with that many vehicles for many opponents, and they likely aren't going to be able to neutralize any one particular capability easily, the only thing being long range anti-AV14, in which case they'll need to engage 3 scouting AV12 fast skimmers. There's no single thing an opponent can engage and destroy to deprive you of a capability, and they'll likely have a lot of trouble not only dealing with that much armor, but also that many scoring units and you've still got 85 infantry on top of that.

....and $350 in just Chimeras.....

$385 MSRP actually, there's 11 of them.

That said, few IG armies are cheap, with IG you can often expect to spend 1.5-3x as much as you'd spend on an equivalent cost SM army.

However, it was just an example of what I was talking about in terms of army design theory. Cost is an altogether different discussion.

redbeast001 wrote:Any one else feel the same way?

No.

As other people are alluding, you're bringing a list with little killing power. It's your fault your guard armies don't have "teeth", not a fault of the codex itself.