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Did you read the Dolmen Gates entry? It says that the Necrons have two options: Slow-burning Torch-ships (whatever the crap those are) and the Dolmen gates.

McNinja wrote:Did you read the Dolmen Gates entry? It says that the Necrons have two options: Slow-burning Torch-ships (whatever the crap those are) and the Dolmen gates.

Yes, when it comes to general intergalactic space travel they typically use either the Dolmen gates or the Torch-ships "whatever the crap those are".

That "whatever the crap those are" is pretty important. We don't know. A lot of things qualify as "slow moving" when your reference point is a gate that can transport you across the galaxy in total safety in seconds.

And despite what the Dolman gate entry says, we know the Necrons have numerous other methods of transportation. Interplanetary teleportation at the very least, going by the Monolith description. The Flayed Ones have inter-dimensional travel. I know there are a couple other things I can't remember off the top of my head.

In the end, we just don't know. They have been very vague on the subject, and taking a particular interpretation of one or two lines of fluff as gospel is never a good idea when it comes to 40k.

I said "whatever the crap those are" because: 1. what is a torch-ship? and 2. How does a ship burn slowly? Exactly what it is is never defined, but what we know is that they are stasis-ships that take so long to get from A to B that their crew must be put in stasis so that they don't die from old age or go stir-crazy.

Also, intergalactic travel means that they can travel between galaxies, interplanetary means between planets, etc.

The point is, why Dolmen gates? The Necrons have the very clear and very accessible capacity to make wormholes (Night Scythe) and access other dimensions (T.Labyrinths, Exile Rays, etc), so why do they have to rely on the creation of the Old Ones, whom they hated? They are masters of the physical universe, yet their FTL travel is either just barely FTL or a crutch that they haven't considered throwing away.

I am gonna agree with McNinja. The codex stupidly says they have to use the gates. Although how the feth one colonized the whole galaxy in torch and stasis ships is beyond me, Much less hold open trade and communication or even have dynasties that span more then a single world.

As he says, they had the means to travel other then the gates. It is the one blatantly stupid part of the whole book.

McNinja wrote:I said "whatever the crap those are" because: 1. what is a torch-ship? and 2. How does a ship burn slowly? Exactly what it is is never defined, but what we know is that they are stasis-ships that take so long to get from A to B that their crew must be put in stasis so that they don't die from old age or go stir-crazy.

We still don't know their speed, or exactly why such stasis is necessary. It could be due to it taking centuries to travel, or it could be due to the stress, radiation, or odd side effects of whatever method of travel they utilize.

Also, intergalactic travel means that they can travel between galaxies, interplanetary means between planets, etc.

Excuse me. Intragalactic.

The point is, why Dolmen gates? The Necrons have the very clear and very accessible capacity to make wormholes (Night Scythe) and access other dimensions (T.Labyrinths, Exile Rays, etc), so why do they have to rely on the creation of the Old Ones, whom they hated? They are masters of the physical universe, yet their FTL travel is either just barely FTL or a crutch that they haven't considered throwing away.

I mostly agree with you, though I don't see any support for "just barely FLT", that sounds like an unjustified assumption.

What i took away from it was that a) the webway was faster and safer than the Necrons other options (not a big stretch. It's hard to beat nigh-instantaneous/perfectly safe trans-galactic transportation) and b) the Necrons needed dolman gates to attack the Old Ones strongholds in the webway.

Personally I don't have an issue with the Necrons using the Dolman gates, but I agree they got too much emphasis. I don't love that they have become the Necrons main form of travel.

What I do take issue with is peoples insistance that those 3-4 sentences of ambiguous fluff somehow means every other form of FTL indicated in their fluff doesn't exist. It is an unjustified and ill-supported assumption.




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Hunterindarkness wrote:I am gonna agree with McNinja. The codex stupidly says they have to use the gates. Although how the feth one colonized the whole galaxy in torch and stasis ships is beyond me, Much less hold open trade and communication or even have dynasties that span more then a single world.

As he says, they had the means to travel other then the gates. It is the one blatantly stupid part of the whole book.

Again, it DOESN'T SAY THAT! It says they use them, and that there was one world that became isolated when it lost it's access to the webway. It doesn't say it is their only form of FTL. It DOES give numerous examples of other forms of FTL available to them.

It does say the gates or torch ships.

P.8

"Yet the webway is imesurably vast, and even these sundered skeins, allow the necrons a method of travel that far outpaces that of the younger races. It is well that it is so. As a race bereft of Psykers, the Necron are incapable of warp travel. And without the gates they would be forced, once more to relay upon slow- voyaging stasis ships, dooming them to isolation."

so yes by the book they stupidly only have FTL by the gates.

Well, that final sentence in the Dolmen Gates entry isn't all that ambiguous. In fact, it's fairly straight forward: As a race bereft of Psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp Travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging-stasis ships, dooming them to isolation.

Besides the ungodly amount of commas in that sentence, reading the rest of the codex and seeing the multiple other ways the Necrons get around, at least on a planetary level, makes you stop and wonder why Ward/the mook who wrote the Dolmen Gates bit chose to ignore the rest of... well, everything.

Honestly, this is more the fault of the writers of the Necron codex. What the Dolmen gate entry says directly contradicts the several other methods of travel noted throughout the codex, and disregards the old "Inertialess Drives" of 3rd Ed. Necrons.

Hmm, okay, you got me. It does in fact have a line that stupid.

Well, I guess I'm just left with assuming the vast multitude of fluff describing their other methods of FTL and talking about their ability to maintain a galactic empire and wage intra-galactic war before they had access to the webway overrides that stupid, STUPID line.

Yeah, the gates are cool as a weapon, but the necron seem to be masters of long range teleport and planer travel.Leaving it as the one and only way to travel FTL is kinda, well stupid.



Yes I think it is universally agreed that the line is stupid.

I figured the way it worked was that it took them a long time to get somewhere the first time, using ships, but that once they were there, they now had a two-way portal to instantaneously transport back and forth. In this way they had excellent transportation within an area they already claimed. However, during the fight with the eldar, they didn't have the luxury of time for a slow-moving ship to travel into enemy space in order to set up a stable supply line. So instead, they hijacked the enemies method, which was faster and didn't require them to have gotten to a location the long way first.

Now in M41, with their old portal method probably in ruins (or at least in need of serious repair) their choices are either to start over with torch ships, setting up new portals, or go back to hijacking the webway like they did during the war.

Well before the gates however they had colonized the galaxy and had star spanning dynasties. You do not do this with slow ships. They had to have some way to cover mass area's of space to start with or they would have stayed minor players.

That isn't a bad interpretation. It certainly has merit.

I had thought a bit along similar lines, as most of the hard and confirmed FTL examples we see is of the wormhole variety.

And that still leaves room for their inertialess drives as shown in BFG. Even if they were 'slow FTL' (e.g. it takes decades to travel between systems) they would still have immense tactical for ship combat (I don't think any other races possess 'tactical' FTL systems).

I'm liking this interpretation. It is the only proposed interpretation that I have seen that matches all the fluff.


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Hunterindarkness wrote:Well before the gates however they had colonized the galaxy and had star spanning dynasties. You do not do this with slow ships. They had to have some way to cover mass area's of space to start with or they would have stayed minor players.

I would still contend that inertialess drives have not been totally retconned. They just aren't necessarily as fast as previously thought. But the Necrons had tens of thousand, possibly hundreds of thousands of years to colonize the galaxy. Say inertialess drives go 100x lightspeed. That is fairly slow in galactic terms, requiring 1000 years to cross the galaxy.

But it is plenty fast enough to colonize the galaxy in less than 5,000 years.

So torch ships go out, take 5-10 years to reach a world, and set up a wormhole to connect it with the rest of the empire. Repeat. They have a powerful galactic empire, but are at a tactical disadvantage when facing warp capable races, as they have a greater ability to project power, and hide their forces.

So when they get access to the webway via dolman gates that becomes their default method of conducting warfare, with inertialess drives being relegated to tactical use, rather than strategic or logistic.

After 60m years their 'stargate' system is largely in dis-repair. Necron worlds cut off from the webway are considered isolated, as it may take them centuries to re-connect with their dynasty. And since the newly awoken Necrons are now in a fairly constant state of war as they reclaim their terretory the webway (their primary method of projecting power on a galactic scale) becomes a very useful tool.

Personally, I like it. It explains a lot, and at least to me, makes the Necrons more interesting.

Im starting to come around to the wormhole idea myself. When you think about it, it makes sense. While it takes a long time for the empire to spread, all the territory in the land is effectively guarded by every ship. Sword of the stars had a similar race, the hivers, who used this technology of FTL. It did not really weaken their empire, in fact, it made them stronger. Once they took some land, it was nigh on impossible to get them away from it, because any ship could get to anywhere nigh instantly. I think it fits their general theme well.

I like how a forum can come up with far superior ideas than a professional writer. I mean, it's like Ward/the tool who wrote the first few pages of fluff had no concept of science or how a technologically advanced race might work... Almost like they'd never seen Stargate.

I'm interested in this wormhole theory. I always pictured Necrons either simply having far superior FTL (aka inertialess drives), or the ability to open wormholes iin a manner not unlike opening a hyperspace window.

riplikash wrote:Personally, I like it. It explains a lot, and at least to me, makes the Necrons more interesting.

I'm glad you like it. I hadn't been part of the whole Necron FTL debate before, so I figured after listening for awhile, I'd throw something in.

McNinja wrote:I like how a forum can come up with far superior ideas than a professional writer. I mean, it's like Ward/the tool who wrote the first few pages of fluff had no concept of science or how a technologically advanced race might work... Almost like they'd never seen Stargate.

I'm interested in this wormhole theory. I always pictured Necrons either simply having far superior FTL (aka inertialess drives), or the ability to open wormholes iin a manner not unlike opening a hyperspace window.

I just thought about how monoliths worked (or how I thought they worked) and expanded it to a planetary scale. Monoliths are extremely slow moving, but once at a location can easily unload massive numbers of units and supplies that were stored on a tombworld as fast as they could walk through the gate.

I'm suggesting that the necrons actually have both inertialess drives and wormholes. Except the inertialess drives, while fast, would still not be as fast as warp travel (though significantly more reliable) and the wormholes, while instantaneous, still require gates to exist on both sides for them to work. The necrons used the former to establish the latter. This would allow for a newly discovered world to have its infrastructure developed and its population expanded in a fraction of the time it would've taken another race, using traditional ships making multiple trips back and forth.

However, this approach doesn't work when you're fighting an extremely mobile enemy in a region of space where you have no wormholes established. Hence the need for something different. Thus the Dolmen gates are born.

I would think that inertialess drives would be a far faster form of travel than Warp travel. While not exactly the same thing, Mass Effects Mass Relays work on a similar principle and are capable of launching you (and your massless ship) clear across the galaxy in a few seconds.

Here's how I think it breaks dow (not that this is vastly different than the other theories in this thread):
-Inertialess drives for long-range journeys (more than, say, a sector/200 light years)
-once in a system, they use the Torch-ships and Megaliths (or the torch-ships carrying megaliths) to make planetfall.
-once planetside, Stargates/wormholes (for those who haven't seen stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe) are set up, via Monolith portals and more permanent edifices. Once a Stargate is in place, they can move from there to any location within the galaxy that also has a stargate on it.
- the Dolmen gates are these stargates/wormhole links. The writer of the Necron codex drank way too much before writing that bit of fluff and forgot necrons have the highest tech level in the galaxy, and so made them use the webway. Why? Because the necrons made their own webway.

McNinja wrote:I would think that inertialess drives would be a far faster form of travel than Warp travel. While not exactly the same thing, Mass Effects Mass Relays work on a similar principle and are capable of launching you (and your massless ship) clear across the galaxy in a few seconds.

Here's how I think it breaks dow (not that this is vastly different than the other theories in this thread):
-Inertialess drives for long-range journeys (more than, say, a sector/200 light years)
-once in a system, they use the Torch-ships and Megaliths (or the torch-ships carrying megaliths) to make planetfall.
-once planetside, Stargates/wormholes (for those who haven't seen stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe) are set up, via Monolith portals and more permanent edifices. Once a Stargate is in place, they can move from there to any location within the galaxy that also has a stargate on it.
- the Dolmen gates are these stargates/wormhole links. The writer of the Necron codex drank way too much before writing that bit of fluff and forgot necrons have the highest tech level in the galaxy, and so made them use the webway. Why? Because the necrons made their own webway.

I disagree on a few points of yours.
If inertialess drives are as fast as you say they are, the use of stargates (big fan of the first two shows btw) seems less important.
Also, you hold the assumption that the writing in the codex is outright wrong, something I'm not willing to accept yet. I'd rather use what's written as best as I can.
I don't feel the stargates they developed are the same as the Dolmen gates. The benefit of switching from their own system to the webway is that during the war, they wouldn't have been able to use the stargates to access Eldar-controlled worlds. To me, the Dolmen gates are more of a drilling mechanism into the webway. What better way to show yourself as a master of movement than by dropping your entire army through the enemy's own supply lines? The stargates still being used as the primary form of transportation within the necron empire.
In the current time, stargates would still have their uses on smaller scales, as can be seen from monoliths, but after so long, the old network is simply not able to support the emerging necrons, and so the Dolmen gates were shifted to their primary means of transportation.

jareddm wrote:

McNinja wrote:I would think that inertialess drives would be a far faster form of travel than Warp travel. While not exactly the same thing, Mass Effects Mass Relays work on a similar principle and are capable of launching you (and your massless ship) clear across the galaxy in a few seconds.

Here's how I think it breaks dow (not that this is vastly different than the other theories in this thread):
-Inertialess drives for long-range journeys (more than, say, a sector/200 light years)
-once in a system, they use the Torch-ships and Megaliths (or the torch-ships carrying megaliths) to make planetfall.
-once planetside, Stargates/wormholes (for those who haven't seen stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe) are set up, via Monolith portals and more permanent edifices. Once a Stargate is in place, they can move from there to any location within the galaxy that also has a stargate on it.
- the Dolmen gates are these stargates/wormhole links. The writer of the Necron codex drank way too much before writing that bit of fluff and forgot necrons have the highest tech level in the galaxy, and so made them use the webway. Why? Because the necrons made their own webway.

I disagree on a few points of yours.
If inertialess drives are as fast as you say they are, the use of stargates (big fan of the first two shows btw) seems less important.
Also, you hold the assumption that the writing in the codex is outright wrong, something I'm not willing to accept yet. I'd rather use what's written as best as I can.
I don't feel the stargates they developed are the same as the Dolmen gates. The benefit of switching from their own system to the webway is that during the war, they wouldn't have been able to use the stargates to access Eldar-controlled worlds. To me, the Dolmen gates are more of a drilling mechanism into the webway. What better way to show yourself as a master of movement than by dropping your entire army through the enemy's own supply lines? The stargates still being used as the primary form of transportation within the necron empire.
In the current time, stargates would still have their uses on smaller scales, as can be seen from monoliths, but after so long, the old network is simply not able to support the emerging necrons, and so the Dolmen gates were shifted to their primary means of transportation.

The reason I'm assuming that the codex fluff is outright wrong is because it's just so dumb. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, and in fact it's actually pretty good. There was another thread (I think in Background) where there was a little debate about how much of the galaxy the Necrons controlled pre-War in Heaven. After establishing that they in fact ruled the majority of the galaxy, it became very hard to believe that they did it in those "slow-burning torch-ships" that required the crew to be put in stasis so they don't die in transit.

I'm all for attempting to work the fluff to fit what I have in my head, but when the fluff shows such a lack of basic sci-fi knowledge (and even science in general) in a codex about the single most technologically advanced race in the entire galaxy (and game), then I'm not going to care about what the codex says. It's like the fluff writers fall off of the face of the earth for a few years while modern science grows exponentially and new sci-fi ideas and theories are tested or created. I mean, watching a few episodes of Doctor Who would help, and that doesn't have nearly as much jargon as Stargate. Heck, just watch the science channel. We have figured out a way to create dozens of sci-fi concepts, like wormholes and star-trek "warp speed," but the energy requirements are so vast we can't feasibly attempt them for the next couple decades at least. Knowing this, there is no reason why a race so advanced as the Necrons cannot be on a level similar to the Asgard, or even the Ancients. I mean, the Ancients had both ballin' Hyperdrives and the capacity to create planet-based wormholes (and the Ori had the capacity to make huge space wormholes).

3rd Edition Necrons had ballin' hyperdrives, 5th Ed necrons have wormholes. Combining the two makes sense.

I'm still with jareddm. I don't like throwing out codex fluff entirely, and as I mentioned before slow burning torch ships still make sense if inertialess drive is in the 50x-100x lightspeed range. Stasis still makes sense, galactic dominance still makes sense, superior tactical FTL a la BFG still exists, their difficulty in fighting the Old Ones makes sense, and it doesn't directly contradict any existing fluff.

Quite frankly, with mass effect style hyperdrive wormhole tech become rather redundant. "We have two forms of instantaneous transportation" is much less interesting and severely decreases the importance of wormhole tech.

Not that any interpretation can be said to be 'wrong', but I find this theory not only fits the fluff better, but is much more interesting than simply "we are the best at everything ever!!!" They are still masters of the physical universe, but there are limits to the physical universe. We know this is true, it's why they had such a hard time with the Old Ones.

JESUS, a two page Necron discussion as a response to some pretty basic questions? Stay on topic....!

DILL3NGER wrote:Hey guys,

I used to table top back in the early to mid 90's but life kinda got in the way of fun stuff and now I'm old and boring with a family and work blah blah blah. However I was made up when the HH series was published and my nose has been stuck in a book ever since. From back in the day I knew about the lore of the universe and such (the basics around the heresy anyway, but that was it) Since getting back into the story I'm uncovering so much stuff it's kinda hard to know whats what.

Reading the HH series is great but there seems to be so many side stories that are passing me by and I'm not understanding whats going on. I feel like I'm missing out on a wider story is what I'm trying to say. Like ....

The dragon on mars in Mechanicum. Whats that all about? Ollus in KNF, from what I read on here you guys seem to think he is some sort of perpetual??? eh? what are they then? and I'm sure there's so much more that has passed me by.

I don't mind finding this stuff out for myself but any help would be greatly recieved. I know about lexicanum but you really need to know what your looking for for that site to help. So if any of you want to give me a run down of whats what or any good books out there that cover this off you would make a veteren very happy.

Right, first, there's not a HUGE amount of stuff you're missing out on - most of the side-stories and tales actually reference back to other HH books. So don't worry too much. The two exceptions you mention are.

The guys above have already filled you in general Necron fluff - basically, for a while the Necrons were ruled by star gods called C'tan who were eventually defeated and broken into shards. Only a few C'tan were named by GW, one of which was The Dragon. No more info has officially been given, but at around the same time as the firts Necron codex, GW started dropping hints about 'Dragons' into the Mechanicus and Mars fluff.

Mechanicus picks up from this, with it's story of the Emperor defeating a mighty dragon and imprisoning it on Mars to his own ends. However, no concrete evidence has ever been given that this is a C'tan, since GW loves it's easter eggs and open ends.

Anyway, the strongly-hinte-at-but-never-confirmed story is that The Dragon was a particularly technical/ordered C'tan that the Emperor defeated and imprisoned on Mars so that it would influence the creation of the Mechanicus, which the Emperor would find useful in years to come.

Perpetuals are much newer as a concept - Know No Fear is the first time they've been used. One of the original stories of the Horus Heresy was about Ollanius Pious, who distracted Horus and saved the Emperor during their final fight. In Rogue Trader days he was a guardsman, and later he was briefly retconned to a Space Marine, and then forgotten about. Recently, he has popped up again in Know No Fear, but the whole thing about him being immortal and 'a perpetual' is completely new. John Gramatticus and the Cabal are from the HH book Legion, and have never appeared in the fluff before this. Many people think that this might be the start of the re-introduction of some old RT-era fluff about the Sensei, who are meant to be the immortal sons of the Emperor from when he walked among men for thousands of years. But we don't know.

In short. There used to be a story about a guy called Ollanius who saved the Emperor. Then a guy called Ollaius pops up in Know No Fear, but now he's something called a 'perpetual' and has links to the Cabal. We don't know any more than this.

True, through there are fewer limitations that most people think. Watch Michio Kaku's Sci-Fi Science show (if you can find it, I've tried and failed, but it may be on re-runs on the Science channel), he explains quite a bit.

The two forms of instantaneous transportation are a bit redundant, but are sued for different purposes. Inertialess Drives are used for traversing large parts of the galaxy to find new or lost worlds (perhaps using stasis to get there alive, though now stasis wouldn't do much), while established wormholes act as direct links to world already under Necron control, helping trade and travel thrive, even across the galaxy.

I myself and going with the Necron "FTL" drive being about as fast as warp. This leaves other forms of two way travel such as worm holes useful. After all it could take weeks of travel time or seconds with a wormhole.

I am also leaving the Gates in as tactical weapons.It always seemed to me that the old ones lived inside the webway, like the DE. The gates allowed them to breach the enemy stronghold and take away the one secure method of travel they had.

ArbitorIan wrote:JESUS, a two page Necron discussion as a response to some pretty basic questions? Stay on topic....!

DILL3NGER wrote:Hey guys,

I used to table top back in the early to mid 90's but life kinda got in the way of fun stuff and now I'm old and boring with a family and work blah blah blah. However I was made up when the HH series was published and my nose has been stuck in a book ever since. From back in the day I knew about the lore of the universe and such (the basics around the heresy anyway, but that was it) Since getting back into the story I'm uncovering so much stuff it's kinda hard to know whats what.

Reading the HH series is great but there seems to be so many side stories that are passing me by and I'm not understanding whats going on. I feel like I'm missing out on a wider story is what I'm trying to say. Like ....

The dragon on mars in Mechanicum. Whats that all about? Ollus in KNF, from what I read on here you guys seem to think he is some sort of perpetual??? eh? what are they then? and I'm sure there's so much more that has passed me by.

I don't mind finding this stuff out for myself but any help would be greatly recieved. I know about lexicanum but you really need to know what your looking for for that site to help. So if any of you want to give me a run down of whats what or any good books out there that cover this off you would make a veteren very happy.

Right, first, there's not a HUGE amount of stuff you're missing out on - most of the side-stories and tales actually reference back to other HH books. So don't worry too much. The two exceptions you mention are.

The guys above have already filled you in general Necron fluff - basically, for a while the Necrons were ruled by star gods called C'tan who were eventually defeated and broken into shards. Only a few C'tan were named by GW, one of which was The Dragon. No more info has officially been given, but at around the same time as the firts Necron codex, GW started dropping hints about 'Dragons' into the Mechanicus and Mars fluff.

Mechanicus picks up from this, with it's story of the Emperor defeating a mighty dragon and imprisoning it on Mars to his own ends. However, no concrete evidence has ever been given that this is a C'tan, since GW loves it's easter eggs and open ends.

Anyway, the strongly-hinte-at-but-never-confirmed story is that The Dragon was a particularly technical/ordered C'tan that the Emperor defeated and imprisoned on Mars so that it would influence the creation of the Mechanicus, which the Emperor would find useful in years to come.

Perpetuals are much newer as a concept - Know No Fear is the first time they've been used. One of the original stories of the Horus Heresy was about Ollanius Pious, who distracted Horus and saved the Emperor during their final fight. In Rogue Trader days he was a guardsman, and later he was briefly retconned to a Space Marine, and then forgotten about. Recently, he has popped up again in Know No Fear, but the whole thing about him being immortal and 'a perpetual' is completely new. John Gramatticus and the Cabal are from the HH book Legion, and have never appeared in the fluff before this. Many people think that this might be the start of the re-introduction of some old RT-era fluff about the Sensei, who are meant to be the immortal sons of the Emperor from when he walked among men for thousands of years. But we don't know.

In short. There used to be a story about a guy called Ollanius who saved the Emperor. Then a guy called Ollaius pops up in Know No Fear, but now he's something called a 'perpetual' and has links to the Cabal. We don't know any more than this.

Top man that makes much more sense now. Thanks for the reply. This does make me laugh though cos I've read all the HH books to date (Half way through Primarchs) and I think I must have blindly been going through the montions. I'm gonna have to go back and read Legion again because clearly when this 'John' Bloke turned up in KNF it didn't click with me that he'd been in the series before.


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Hunterindarkness wrote:I myself and going with the Necron "FTL" drive being about as fast as warp. This leaves other forms of two way travel such as worm holes useful. After all it could take weeks of travel time or seconds with a wormhole.

I am also leaving the Gates in as tactical weapons.It always seemed to me that the old ones lived inside the webway, like the DE. The gates allowed them to breach the enemy stronghold and take away the one secure method of travel they had.

For what its worth when reading Dark Creed in the Wordbearers Omnibus it comes across that the Necrons have FTL. HTH

I think those are before the retcon and the new codex. But eh everyone ignores that silly line anyhow.