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Hey guys,

I used to table top back in the early to mid 90's but life kinda got in the way of fun stuff and now I'm old and boring with a family and work blah blah blah. However I was made up when the HH series was published and my nose has been stuck in a book ever since. From back in the day I knew about the lore of the universe and such (the basics around the heresy anyway, but that was it) Since getting back into the story I'm uncovering so much stuff it's kinda hard to know whats what.

Reading the HH series is great but there seems to be so many side stories that are passing me by and I'm not understanding whats going on. I feel like I'm missing out on a wider story is what I'm trying to say. Like ....

The dragon on mars in Mechanicum. Whats that all about? Ollus in KNF, from what I read on here you guys seem to think he is some sort of perpetual??? eh? what are they then? and I'm sure there's so much more that has passed me by.

I don't mind finding this stuff out for myself but any help would be greatly recieved. I know about lexicanum but you really need to know what your looking for for that site to help. So if any of you want to give me a run down of whats what or any good books out there that cover this off you would make a veteren very happy.

The Dragon is a C'Tan that the Emperor defeated a long time ago, and imprisoned on Mars because he knew its influence would drive technological innovation.

Don't remember much about Ollus.

Omegus wrote:The Dragon is a C'Tan that the Emperor defeated a long time ago, and imprisoned on Mars because he knew its influence would drive technological innovation.

Don't remember much about Ollus.

Ok thanks for that......... What is a C'Tan then ? lol

DILL3NGER wrote:

Omegus wrote:The Dragon is a C'Tan that the Emperor defeated a long time ago, and imprisoned on Mars because he knew its influence would drive technological innovation.

Don't remember much about Ollus.

Ok thanks for that......... What is a C'Tan then ? lol

Ancient star gods that have existed since the birth of the galaxy and leaders of the Necron, there are 4 left The Void Dragon, The Nightbringer, The Deceiver and The Outsider.

Well, in the new fluff they are no longer leaders of the Necrons, since the Necrons somehow managed to overcome being turned into mindless, utterly obedient automatons, and managed to shatter and enslave nigh-omnipotent entities that eat stars and couldn't be defeated neither by the Old Ones nor the Eldar and their Gods at the height of their civilizations.

i.e. Ward fluff is awful.

Omegus wrote:Well, in the new fluff they are no longer leaders of the Necrons, since the Necrons somehow managed to overcome being turned into mindless, utterly obedient automatons, and managed to shatter and enslave nigh-omnipotent deities that couldn't be defeated neither by the Old Ones nor the Eldar and their Gods at the height of their civilizations.

i.e. Ward fluff is awful.

Wait that stuff was real . Joking I just forgot about that, perhaps my mind is blocking bs. That's actually not a bad thing for my mind to do.

Looks like I'm going to have to read Mechanicum again then because this completely passed me by thanks guys.

Anything else you think I should know?

The only books I've read are the Eisenhorn trilogy, which are good if you want some 'contemporary' 40k lore (i.e. set in the era that table-top battles are set in). I'm going to be reading some Gaunt's Ghosts soon though.

Yori wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:

Omegus wrote:The Dragon is a C'Tan that the Emperor defeated a long time ago, and imprisoned on Mars because he knew its influence would drive technological innovation.

Don't remember much about Ollus.

Ok thanks for that......... What is a C'Tan then ? lol

Ancient star gods that have existed since the birth of the galaxy and leaders of the Necron, there are 4 left The Void Dragon, The Nightbringer, The Deceiver and The Outsider.

Newcron fluff states:

A.) There are more then 4 C'tan, they never ate each other
B.) All of the named ones are slaves/shards, even Outsider/Void Dragon. They were listed as such in WD. So stuff like Void Dragon fighting the Emperor or being on Mars doesn't exist anymore.

I don't think the C'tan being shards invalidates the Emperor/Void Dragon fluff. It just means the Emperor wasn't fighting a full-strength C'tan but a shard instead, which makes more sense anyway.

Everything the C'Tan did they can still do as shards. Now different aspects of the C'Tan shards can be at different places at different times, even with the majority still under necron control.

The Emperor still could've easily fought the void dragon and imprisoned it, except it was a shard of the void dragon. Makes a lot more sense when a being that was supposed to be a god can be defeated on the battlefield. Not to mention now we can only imagine the power of a fully formed C'Tan, which would easily be the equal of a chaos god.

Ninja'd

Omegus wrote:Well, in the new fluff they are no longer leaders of the Necrons, since the Necrons somehow managed to overcome being turned into mindless, utterly obedient automatons, and managed to shatter and enslave nigh-omnipotent entities that eat stars and couldn't be defeated neither by the Old Ones nor the Eldar and their Gods at the height of their civilizations.

i.e. Ward fluff is awful.

Only the low class got all zombified. The Ruling class kept their minds intact, even if they had a program running that made them obey the Silent king. It was a tier system, the SK on top, his nobles having to do what the and the C'tan told them and the lesser Necrons having to do as they were told. The Necrontry themselves were vastly powerful and the Necrons did not strike at the C'tan until the star gods had always burned though a large amount of the infused lifeforce of the Necrotyr.

Just makes the Necron more bad ass if ya ask me.

The new Necron stuff actually makes sense, and gives the army some personality and options. It also makes them out to be a much more significant threat than they ever were before.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Omegus wrote:Well, in the new fluff they are no longer leaders of the Necrons, since the Necrons somehow managed to overcome being turned into mindless, utterly obedient automatons, and managed to shatter and enslave nigh-omnipotent entities that eat stars and couldn't be defeated neither by the Old Ones nor the Eldar and their Gods at the height of their civilizations.

i.e. Ward fluff is awful.

Only the low class got all zombified. The Ruling class kept their minds intact, even if they had a program running that made them obey the Silent king. It was a tier system, the SK on top, his nobles having to do what the and the C'tan told them and the lesser Necrons having to do as they were told. The Necrontry themselves were vastly powerful and the Necrons did not strike at the C'tan until the star gods had always burned though a large amount of the infused lifeforce of the Necrotyr.

Just makes the Necron more bad ass if ya ask me.

Mat Ward only makes stuff more awsome.
No, you don't smell

Welcome Venerable Brother Dillenger! I dont know much either but i have been reading the HH series, and a few other stories. Dont know too much about the ctans besides they were defeated by necrons

You have to take allot of fluff with a pinch of salt to make it make sense.

IMO all that stuff mat ward says in regard to the C'tan "shattering" happened BUT the "big 4" (deceiver, nightbringer, outsider and dragon) managed to survive but no longer directly lead the necron forces as they did in the old fluff. This way the dragon is still a real C'tan under mars and the outsider is still in his dyson sphere, however instead of the laughing god tricking the outsider into eating the other C'tan it was the necrons who destroyed them.

vodo40k wrote:You have to take allot of fluff with a pinch of salt to make it make sense.

IMO all that stuff mat ward says in regard to the C'tan "shattering" happened BUT the "big 4" (deceiver, nightbringer, outsider and dragon) managed to survive but no longer directly lead the necron forces as they did in the old fluff. This way the dragon is still a real C'tan under mars and the outsider is still in his dyson sphere, however instead of the laughing god tricking the outsider into eating the other C'tan it was the necrons who destroyed them.

Here's the thing. You're interpreting the word "shattered" incorrectly. The individual C'Tan still have all of their power, it's just divided up into many shards. Each of those shards has their own personality and goals, it's just that most of them are kept under lock and key by the necrons. An individual C'Tan shard is still just as powerful as any greater daemon, and just because 90% of the nightbringer shards are controlled by the necrons, doesn't mean the other 10% (which could amount to hundreds of shards) aren't out in the galaxy working on their own plots and causing havoc. The only C'Tan that can be said to be truly "dead" is Llandu'gor, the Flayer, which ended up causing the birth of the flayed ones.

A shard of the dragon could still have influenced the development of mars in the same way a daemon consciousness buried beneath a planet can still corrupt it.

jareddm wrote:

vodo40k wrote:You have to take allot of fluff with a pinch of salt to make it make sense.

IMO all that stuff mat ward says in regard to the C'tan "shattering" happened BUT the "big 4" (deceiver, nightbringer, outsider and dragon) managed to survive but no longer directly lead the necron forces as they did in the old fluff. This way the dragon is still a real C'tan under mars and the outsider is still in his dyson sphere, however instead of the laughing god tricking the outsider into eating the other C'tan it was the necrons who destroyed them.

Here's the thing. You're interpreting the word "shattered" incorrectly. The individual C'Tan still have all of their power, it's just divided up into many shards. Each of those shards has their own personality and goals, it's just that most of them are kept under lock and key by the necrons. An individual C'Tan shard is still just as powerful as any greater daemon, and just because 90% of the nightbringer shards are controlled by the necrons, doesn't mean the other 10% (which could amount to hundreds of shards) aren't out in the galaxy working on their own plots and causing havoc. The only C'Tan that can be said to be truly "dead" is Llandu'gor, the Flayer, which ended up causing the birth of the flayed ones.

A shard of the dragon could still have influenced the development of mars in the same way a daemon consciousness buried beneath a planet can still corrupt it.

I just dont like to think the entire mechanicum would be influenced by anything less than a full C'tan.

jareddm wrote:

vodo40k wrote:You have to take allot of fluff with a pinch of salt to make it make sense.

IMO all that stuff mat ward says in regard to the C'tan "shattering" happened BUT the "big 4" (deceiver, nightbringer, outsider and dragon) managed to survive but no longer directly lead the necron forces as they did in the old fluff. This way the dragon is still a real C'tan under mars and the outsider is still in his dyson sphere, however instead of the laughing god tricking the outsider into eating the other C'tan it was the necrons who destroyed them.

Here's the thing. You're interpreting the word "shattered" incorrectly. The individual C'Tan still have all of their power, it's just divided up into many shards. Each of those shards has their own personality and goals, it's just that most of them are kept under lock and key by the necrons. An individual C'Tan shard is still just as powerful as any greater daemon, and just because 90% of the nightbringer shards are controlled by the necrons, doesn't mean the other 10% (which could amount to hundreds of shards) aren't out in the galaxy working on their own plots and causing havoc. The only C'Tan that can be said to be truly "dead" is Llandu'gor, the Flayer, which ended up causing the birth of the flayed ones.

A shard of the dragon could still have influenced the development of mars in the same way a daemon consciousness buried beneath a planet can still corrupt it.

No he was right, the Emperor still fought the whole thing. The littler 2 of the big 4 have been changed, but the Outsider and the Void Dragon are much the same.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

jareddm wrote:

vodo40k wrote:You have to take allot of fluff with a pinch of salt to make it make sense.

IMO all that stuff mat ward says in regard to the C'tan "shattering" happened BUT the "big 4" (deceiver, nightbringer, outsider and dragon) managed to survive but no longer directly lead the necron forces as they did in the old fluff. This way the dragon is still a real C'tan under mars and the outsider is still in his dyson sphere, however instead of the laughing god tricking the outsider into eating the other C'tan it was the necrons who destroyed them.

Here's the thing. You're interpreting the word "shattered" incorrectly. The individual C'Tan still have all of their power, it's just divided up into many shards. Each of those shards has their own personality and goals, it's just that most of them are kept under lock and key by the necrons. An individual C'Tan shard is still just as powerful as any greater daemon, and just because 90% of the nightbringer shards are controlled by the necrons, doesn't mean the other 10% (which could amount to hundreds of shards) aren't out in the galaxy working on their own plots and causing havoc. The only C'Tan that can be said to be truly "dead" is Llandu'gor, the Flayer, which ended up causing the birth of the flayed ones.

A shard of the dragon could still have influenced the development of mars in the same way a daemon consciousness buried beneath a planet can still corrupt it.

No he was right, the Emperor still fought the whole thing. The littler 2 of the big 4 have been changed, but the Outsider and the Void Dragon are much the same.

There's nothing I've seen that confirms that one way or the other. The only thing we have is that the C'Tan, except for the Flayer, were broken into shards. This included other C'Tan, who may have been just as powerful, such as the Burning One. Where does it list the Void Dragon and Outsider as exceptions to this? Because of this, I don't see how it could've been a full strength C'Tan that the Emperor fought. It could have simply been a particularly powerful shard of the Void Dragon.

I have to agree that it does not say any C'tan did not get shattered. It is much more believable to me that what the emp threw down with was a shard then a star eating god. Sure the Emp was good...he was not that good.

I don't think it has anything to do with strength. The necrons couldn't even figure out how to destroy the shards. I just figured the shards were like greater daemons and that (usually) they simply can't be permanently destroyed in any meaningful way.

IIRC are not the shards merely containers to hold the C'tan in shattered and weakened states? I was pretty sure they were traps as they could not kill them so contained them.

Omegus wrote:Well, in the new fluff they are no longer leaders of the Necrons, since the Necrons somehow managed to overcome being turned into mindless, utterly obedient automatons, and managed to shatter and enslave nigh-omnipotent entities that eat stars and couldn't be defeated neither by the Old Ones nor the Eldar and their Gods at the height of their civilizations.

i.e. Ward fluff is awful.

Funny how easy it is to make something sound silly when you totally misrepresent the fluff.

The Old Ones had already defeated the C'Tan once, that is why they came to the Necrons aid. The C'Tan devoured the life force of all living Necrons to temporarily gain the power to destroy the Old Ones WITH the Necron's help.

The Necrons then held back and let the C'Tan spend most of their newfound power defeating the Old Ones, and after they had spent themselves somehow harnessed the energy of the universe itself to shatter them and trapped the shards in living metal, because even then they could not destroy them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hunterindarkness wrote:IIRC are not the shards merely containers to hold the C'tan in shattered and weakened states? I was pretty sure they were traps as they could not kill them so contained them.

Yes that is correct.

jareddm wrote:I don't think it has anything to do with strength. The necrons couldn't even figure out how to destroy the shards. I just figured the shards were like greater daemons and that (usually) they simply can't be permanently destroyed in any meaningful way.

More or less. They are an inextricable part of the universe, and are unable to be killed in the same way a Greater Daemon cannot truly be killed, though C'tan do not have to be summoned (they are always in realspace).

Hunterindarkness wrote:IIRC are not the shards merely containers to hold the C'tan in shattered and weakened states? I was pretty sure they were traps as they could not kill them so contained them.

The Necrodermis? Nope. The Tesseract Labyrinths the C'tan Shards are trapped in when they are found and caught, yes.

riplikash wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:IIRC are not the shards merely containers to hold the C'tan in shattered and weakened states? I was pretty sure they were traps as they could not kill them so contained them.

Yes that is correct.

The Necrodermis was created for the fully-powered C'tan. The Shards are bits of the Necrodermis that contain a fragment of the true C'tan's power.

Psienesis wrote:The new Necron stuff actually makes sense, and gives the army some personality and options. It also makes them out to be a much more significant threat than they ever were before.

But they were so much cooler when they lacked personality of any kind.

the C'Tan shards makes more sense for having them on the TT but the new fluff is horrendous especially with the whole "Our tech levels are regressing and can't make a single FTL jump"

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
the C'Tan shards makes more sense for having them on the TT but the new fluff is horrendous especially with the whole "Our tech levels are regressing and can't make a single FTL jump"

More misrepresenting. There is a single fluff entry in the new fluff implying being cut off from the webway is a major hinderance, numerous other indications that they have access to other forms of FTL, and several of their confirmed technologies involve teleportation and dimensional travel.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The new Necron stuff actually makes sense, and gives the army some personality and options. It also makes them out to be a much more significant threat than they ever were before.

But they were so much cooler when they lacked personality of any kind.

the C'Tan shards makes more sense for having them on the TT but the new fluff is horrendous especially with the whole "Our tech levels are regressing and can't make a single FTL jump"

I disagree about it being wholly horrendous, but the one part i hate is the Dolmen Gates bit. It's pointless and dumb and makes the Necrons look like morons. For the masters of technology, they aren't really masterful in that regard. They still have a weapon that shoots a bolt at FTL speeds, yet their ships are slower than IoM ships.

Ha. NO.

I have to agree the Dolmen gate as the only way they have FTL is the one part of the book that is silly. Now if it was written as an old weapon they used to break into the webway to chase down the old ones, it would be cool.

As a main way to travel, yeah stupid.

McNinja wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:The new Necron stuff actually makes sense, and gives the army some personality and options. It also makes them out to be a much more significant threat than they ever were before.

But they were so much cooler when they lacked personality of any kind.

the C'Tan shards makes more sense for having them on the TT but the new fluff is horrendous especially with the whole "Our tech levels are regressing and can't make a single FTL jump"

I disagree about it being wholly horrendous, but the one part i hate is the Dolmen Gates bit. It's pointless and dumb and makes the Necrons look like morons. For the masters of technology, they aren't really masterful in that regard. They still have a weapon that shoots a bolt at FTL speeds, yet their ships are slower than IoM ships.

Ha. NO.

Allow me to quote myself:

Riplikash wrote:
There is a single fluff entry in the new fluff implying being cut off from the webway is a major hinderance, numerous other indications that they have access to other forms of FTL, and several of their confirmed technologies involve teleportation and dimensional travel.

The codex doesn't say "the Necrons have no FTL but the doleman gates", it implies (in one entry) a single world (that we know very little else about) was considered cut-off from a large scale shipping perspective, because it had lost access too the webway.

It also gives numerous other examples and inferences that they have other forms of FTL.

This does not constitute proof that the Necrons have no FTL beyond the doleman gates. Just that that single world lost it's ability to ship large quantities of loot. Perhaps it's shipping system was designed that way. Perhaps due to its spacial 'geography' it was somehow protected from other forms of Necron FTL. We really know very little about the situation to make vast assumptioned based on that one piece of fluff.