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Kroothawk wrote:3.) If someone wants to play Teclis, just roll a dice: On 2-6 the Teclis player wins. Saves both players wasting 3 hours gaming time to wait for this one decisive dice roll..

This isn't exactly true. If the person playing Teclis is a bad player, then you still have a chance. There is one player in my group who uses Teclis on a regular basis but still doesn't win very often. I have beaten him almost every time with generic all-comers lists. Its almost funny to see him try.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

1.) In 8th edition, magic is overpowered and can easily decide the whole game with one dice roll.

The only time it's really overpowered is if you are able to consistantly IF it over and over.

Aka, Teclis, who gains doubles and not only that, basically has not to many issues with miscasts.

Normally magic can barely decide depending on how well the winds of magic roll, it can be good, it can be bad, and it can be dispelled.

Not to mention if you want to decide the whole game, try watching a dwarven, empire, or skaven break down because all their artillery broke down due to two dice rolls.

QFT

I had a chaos player mow me down last week because my WLC did nothing.

Also no Teclis in not illegal but he is a pretty d move

DukeRustfield wrote:See, Sebster, but that's you. And you're entitled to that opinion. To me it's weird to think just cuz they are gray anyone wouldn't play them. And I think proxies are fine, as long as it's clear.

Yeah, it is just me, and reflects nothing but the way I want to play. That's kind of the thing, everyone has the right to only play the games they personally want to play. If unpainted models, or half assembled models, or coffee mugs standing in as Greater Daemons of Khorne don't bother other players, then they're free to play it as they like.

My point, really, was whatever playing preferences you've got, what's really good is to talk about it with your opponent, to come to some kind of terms that leave you both happy. For instance, if someone explains to me that they're just starting their army and still working through painting it, I'm more than happy to play against them.

In the same way, there are all sorts of situations in which I'm happy to play against Teclis or all sorts of other power options, provided they talk about it beforehand and we come up with a way in which the game sounds like it'll be fun.

That said, I used to know some older guys who did war gaming miniatures. And they'd spend like 2 hours setting up some huge African Tobruk battle of WWII with little clouds of blackened cotton balls for smoke and such. It was pretty amazing.

When I was 7 or 8 a got to watch an older kid down the road do exactly that with his mates. It's basically where I got the bug for wargaming from.


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Hellstorm wrote:This isn't exactly true. If the person playing Teclis is a bad player, then you still have a chance. There is one player in my group who uses Teclis on a regular basis but still doesn't win very often. I have beaten him almost every time with generic all-comers lists. Its almost funny to see him try.

There are all sorts of ways to beat Teclis. The problem is that in most cases you either have those options and stand a good to excellent chance of winning, or you do not, and are well and truly up against it. The issue is that there's no middle ground where you might nullify or even somewhat reduce Teclis' output, allowing all the other stuff on the field to have an effect.

Basically, all the clever manouvering in the world means not one thing when Teclis is throwing out a pile of unstoppable spells every turn... and at the same time all the clever ploys mean nothing when the enemy has sniped Teclis in turn 2 and now you have no magic and a several hundred point whole in your list.

What you should do in your local Gaming Groups is agree to ban all SPECIAL CHARACTERS.

GW have a history of making characters with insane abilities and making them cost next to nothing.

Thats only 5% of their SCs, the other 95% are either meh or downright suck.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats only 5% of their SCs, the other 95% are either meh or downright suck.

Yeah, I'm not sure what game he was playing. SCs are by far some of the worst values in the game. You're basically paying 2-3x more for fluff. Or 1 or 2 abilities that you can't get any other way. In 8th TK have some good SCs and VC have a couple and O&G aren't flat-out terrible. But you can often get 2 Lords for the price of one SC who is less customizeable.

Infact the only time you really want a SC is when he grants unique rules, because there's really no reason otherwise to take most of them without it.

Yeah, there are very few situations where a SC is better then the generic alternatives.

i love running Bugman, he is a good example of a character adding flavour to and army without breaking it, im a dwarf player and even I think thorek is bad form for a freindly game

thelordcal wrote:As a high elf player, i abhor the use of Teclis. Don't be a pansy and play instead of lol throw dice at super big spells of doom.

The only time he gets busted out is if a player in the club needs to be taught a lesson.

Dwarf lists with thorek, hand gunner spam and 8+ warmachines

Dark Elves with all the nastys.

I play in a prety friendly club and environment, people who try to break our fragile fluff based ecosystem get taught a hard lesson.

What do Dark Elves have that High Elves (thanks to Always Strikes First) can't beat without Teclis?

Hydra? Swordmasters with Banner of Flame
Black Guard? Phoenix Guard
Magic? You have strong magic too.
Dark Elf Spearmen? High Elf Spearmen fight in an extra rank and always strike first.
Witch Elves? You're hitting a unit with T3 and no armour first.

About the only thing DE can actually trounce HE at is shooting thanks to multiple shots and armour piercing.

The problem with banning all SCs, as noted, is that most are just fine, and some even open up alternate builds (Throgg, etc.).

Good to see HE players panning Teclis. It's really a turnoff for me to fantasy always having to play against him and Kairos, respectively. Not that they're unbeatable... but it just makes the game no longer fun.

I actually have gotten tired of "fighting the power" in this regard. GW made the game this way intentionally, but didn't account for things like Teclis. He's the most egregious, but even without him, games often come down to just a big spell roll.

As a result, I think I've played my last game of 8th edition fantasy... just too many other awesome game systems out there for me to try, rather than having to continue to deal with such a frustrating system as is in place currently.

There is actually a tournament taking place this June that for the first time @ my FLGS no Special Characters are allowed which I think is a nice change of pace (however I will unable to attend due to prior obligations with my army unit ). Being an ex High Elf player I can agree that Teclis when it comes to friendly games is generally considered a d**k move and frowned upon, same thing with Kairos (no offense to Demon players but he is just as bad as Teclis in his own way) but the same argument can be said for a few generic unit choices out there (The Slaneesh Greater Demon, Tzeetch Herald Leadership bomb list for example is completely ridiculous, which is why it is banned in tournaments in Europe for example).

Unfortunately there are just certain combinations of lists out there that allow this to happen and of course, certain individuals who believe that winning is everything who are ready to exploit them. dont get me wrong, I dont mind losing games, just as long as I am not getting absolutely curb stomped by my opponent and sadly I have run into quite a few of those kinds of lists over the years. However I also try to take it with a grain of salt as yes it sucks, but @ the same time you can become a better player, both morally and tactics wise and most importantly, have fun! I just played a game with my new Chaos Dwarf army tonight and learned that Magma Cannons are awesome! So awesome that I will not be bringing more then one to the board except during tournaments (2 of them basically took out my twins High Elf army by themselves) as I could agree its not fun for anyone, winner or loser. Best thing I can recommend to say to your friend is that you wont see him unless its @ tournaments

Naah take teclis all you want just don't frown when my uberfrog brings the entire herd of stegs over for a dance.

Stegadons are a counter to Teclis as kind words are a counter to nuclear bombs.

Actually they are, he can't seem to nuke all four in the two turns it takes me for them to get to his army and trample all over it.

I don't know if he needs to. He's going to be bunkered in some Ward 4 PG behind lines anyway. He'll never be in danger. It's up to his army to fight monsters and they can do it with the benefit of a buffing or nuking teclis.

It's not like your toad becomes worthless just because someone engages him, his TG or anyone around him. He's probably a life slann doing life slann stuff. Like a Teclis IF Mindrazor will mulch a dino a turn without you getting to do a damn thing (ASF).

Yea ok hasn't happened yet, and he can't mindrazor himself cuz he's too scared of the blood statuette.

RiTides wrote:As a result, I think I've played my last game of 8th edition fantasy... just too many other awesome game systems out there for me to try, rather than having to continue to deal with such a frustrating system as is in place currently.

Every system has problems. I'm not saying not to move around and play other games, but just to do it for the right reasons. If you go looking for variety and different kinds of strategies then there's a whole lot of fun to be had out there, but if you go looking for perfect systems with no balance problems, then you're on your way to gamer burn out.

Mindrazor has nothing to do with it. Besides he's not scared of a power 5 item. He can dispel that pretty easily. You don't get bonus frog dice using bound items, but HE get tons of bonus dice just being fruity elves.

If he really hates it tell him to run a Beastmen army with the Stone of Spite.

Play 1850 points. Problem solved.

Oh my entire PG unit and teclis+bsb and char is T7 now with regen? Sweet! Screaming bell? Not sweet. All dead.

Oh a nasty kitted out ghoul or vamp lord flew at my unit and raped the characters and then teclis? Not sweet.

Oh 2-3 hydras/aboms/sphynx on the table along with stubborn unkillable peggy lord/350 rats on the table/2-3 units of necro knights? Not sweet.

Oh horde of witch elves with cauldron and lvl4 with sac dagger? Not sweet at all.

Man, teclis sure is op guys! Hah, I'm glad that other books don't take THEIR ridiculously op-for-their-points units in multiples to games. No? They do? Not sweet.

The Sphinx isn't OP, 2 aboms/hydra's will be dealt with by firsthitting swordsmen with banner of flaming, a horde of witch elves will struggle against Teclis since the level 4 will be hurting unable to do much against his group with his banner, and the elite troops are more than a match for them, and the Screaming bell is unable to touch his group.

He can take all the magics and blast you how he pleases, I'm not sure why you'd think he'd only take one path.

Not to mention all those listed are 7th edition armies, which generally revolve around gimmicky things and has the worst balance rate of the editions.

BronzeJon wrote:Man, teclis sure is op guys! Hah, I'm glad that other books don't take THEIR ridiculously op-for-their-points units in multiples to games. No? They do? Not sweet.

And there's the answer to your question. If you want to play with all the broken stuff from your book, then you man up and face all the other broken stuff in other people's books, and the price of having that list selection freedom is that a large number of your games will basically come down to who's broken stuff works out better on the day.

Or, if you want a game where list selection tricks don't regularly decide the outcome, then you talk to your opponent, and come to an agreement on the kind of lists you both think will make for good games. The price you pay is having to apply some judgement in list selection, and in having to trust your opponent will do the same.

Both of these are fair and reasonable approaches to the game. What is not fair, and not reasonable, is people insisting that their preferred approach is the only way to go. That, for instance, Teclis should always be allowed because other powerful combinations might theoretically be taken by other people.