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Zookie wrote:But that does not rule of intelligence gathering, spy satellites and the like. You can't defeat your foe if you do not know where they are.

Likewise, with the rule of intelligence and espionage, one does not have to be fought to lose a battle.

Also, it should be noted that intelligence gathering is not always necessarily needed to win battles. However, it does provide a humongous advantage, so much in fact that it'll be difficult for any enemy to overcome that advantage. But nonetheless, if your troops are starving / if you are massively outnumbered / if the enemies weapons are more advanced and superior to yours, no amount of intelligence can help you win an engagement. That is why organization, technology. speed, and efficiency are the trademarks of all professional armies. Everything else comes after that.

Oh I just thought this was a general thing


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Although I think naval intelligence makes more mistakes than orks do and that's saying somethin

the dark king wrote:Oh I just thought this was a general thing


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Although I think naval intelligence makes more mistakes than orks do and that's saying somethin

That's probably not true...

I'm not a guard fan as you can probably tell. their the cannon fodder of the 41st millenium the assassins are awesome though dispite the fact they all die in the nemesis HH book

Guard are pretty awesome...
Just because they are the front line doesn't make them cannon fodder.
If it did regiments specialising in things wouldn't exist...
The Imperial Guard are a mostly professional and surprisingly well equipped organisation.
Assassins are however extremely bloody awesome...

I'm just wondering fluff wise if an eversor assassin could take on an IG platoon


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Also you can't really call IG professional if there's gluesniffers, drunks druggies and all manner of other vices


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I mean they even have to lock the liqour cupboard up and try to kill eachother while in battle


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They also have someone with them with a gun pointed at their head to make sure they don't run away

the dark king wrote:I'm just wondering fluff wise if an eversor assassin could take on an IG platoon


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Also you can't really call IG professional if there's gluesniffers, drunks druggies and all manner of other vices


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I mean they even have to lock the liqour cupboard up and try to kill eachother while in battle


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They also have someone with them with a gun pointed at their head to make sure they don't run away

Yeah totally agree with this guy, Guardsmen = Cannon fodder

Thank you the high command of the guard just generally throw them at the enemy I believe that one of them said give me enough guardmen. And I can close the eye of terror itself

the dark king wrote:I'm just wondering fluff wise if an eversor assassin could take on an IG platoon


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Also you can't really call IG professional if there's gluesniffers, drunks druggies and all manner of other vices


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I mean they even have to lock the liqour cupboard up and try to kill eachother while in battle


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They also have someone with them with a gun pointed at their head to make sure they don't run away

Herpa derp derp yeah and all Space Marines are incompetent because Commander Boreale was competent!

Stereotyping is fun.

the dark king wrote:Thank you the high command of the guard just generally throw them at the enemy I believe that one of them said give me enough guardmen. And I can close the eye of terror itself

Yeah and he got killed because he was a total idiot.
The Guard may be (In some regiments not all) comprised of the dregs of the human race but they know how to fight.
How else would they manage to defeat some of humanities deadliest foes?
The Guard do more for the Imperium than the Marines do.

The Guard keeps the Imperium from dieing, the Astartes keeps the Imperium from defeat...which would lead to dieing.

I'm with Purple here. The Guard fight the vast majority of wars for the Imperium, despite us mostly hearing about the Astartes. Some are incompetent, yes, but that majority are trained well and fight similarily. Dark Apostle, Storm of Iron, and the Ciaphis Cain novels all give excellent examples of this.

This is, however, slightly off topic.

You forget one thing:
In the 40k universe all types of sensors would be so advanced as to be able to scan an entire planet in a matter of seconds, also recon drones and UAVs of different sorts.

Daemonhammer, why do you say so? We've seen servo-skulls that can fly around and scout out, but they're used by the Inquisition and special forces, not by Space Marines or regular Guard. Sensors have been established in many side novels to be horrendously imprecise. We've got no reason to believe that your assertions are true.

The auspex systems of the majority of vessels in 40k are, basically, a thermometer, a wind-sock, a Polaroid camera, a flashlight and a microphone on the end of a stick.

Orks must have some intel, otherwise it'd be incredibly easy for a much smaller force to out-manoeuvre them.

Engine of War wrote:

Sturmtruppen wrote:I wonder if the IG have dedicated Intelligence Corps.

They would probly use the other Imperial Intel agencys. (assasins and all that jazz)

Otherwise hey use a myriad of troop and vehicales to scout/recon locations.
Scout Sentinals
Valkaries and practically any aircraft availible can be used for recon
Centaurs or Salamanders
Chimeras could be outfitted with increased comms equipment and other scouting tech.
allegedly the Exterminator Leman Russ (Twin Auto Cannons one) is faster (fluffwise) then the standard Russ and can and has been used for scouting (that and if attacked it can fight back and take a beating)
Motorcycles have been mentioned fluffwise (i recall one known as the "Hornet" motorcycle used in Gunheads for scouting and messenger work when the vox didn't work),
Roughriders and their horses (or whatever they use for a mount) could be used.
Snipers
and so on.

Practically any unit can be made to scout or recon an area (but i dout they would use LRs or Baneblades and anything bigger)

practically any unit in the IG can scout (if told to).

Hmm. After reading this, I'm considering re-starting my Guard army with an Intel/Recon theme. Thanks for the info!

Clearly, the Grey Knights, Guard and Necrons have better intelligence services, because they arrive on the battlefield with better leveraged forces.

emphan34 wrote:

the dark king wrote:I'm just wondering fluff wise if an eversor assassin could take on an IG platoon


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Also you can't really call IG professional if there's gluesniffers, drunks druggies and all manner of other vices


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I mean they even have to lock the liqour cupboard up and try to kill eachother while in battle


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They also have someone with them with a gun pointed at their head to make sure they don't run away

Yeah totally agree with this guy, Guardsmen = Cannon fodder

I respectfully disagree, it varies from regiment to regiment.
You have the penal legions, who might be good in a knife fight, but are still undisciplined
You have the poor conscripts sent to die in droves with little training or discipline
You have regiments that rely purely on discipline to carry the day like the Moridian Iron Guard
You have regiments where the men and/or women serving in it have been trained almost from birth to fight
You have regiments where the men and/or women are grown in vats for the sole purpose of serving in the guard

Some of those regiments are terrible man for man, but some, like the Cadians and Ork Hunters are soldiers far superior to any that exist today, and considering that the vast majority of enemies are Orks, humans, or relatively (compared to carnifexes and space marines) weak xenos they are very good at what they do and probably can crush a conventional enemy with ease under good conditions. Even when they are facing tougher enemies the IG has something no other faction has, sheer mass. Sure the Orks and Tyranids can match them man for man, but the Guard has artillery, they have deathstrike missiles, baneblades, Leman Russ tanks, they have an endless reserve of men and women. When the Guard can't win through strength of arms they can win through attrition. There is a reason Armageddon, Cadia, and Ryza still stand, because when the Guard kicks it into high gear they are both an unstoppable force and an immovable object, they can win any siege given the time and hold any fortress given the resources.

Orks - Kommandos for sabotage, deep infiltration and covert ops. Aerial reconnaisance (even if the flyboy takes a detour to blast some things along the way). Forward scouts (speed freeks, deffkoptas). Oh, and if all else fails, just send some grots. If we hear 'boom' or 'dakka', then there's enemies ahead. Analysis and decision upon available info usually fall on the largest, meanest ork around.

I'd like to believe that some odd branch of the mekboys also provide some sort of SIGINT support. No evidence for this, though.

Tyranids - Their intel-gathering devices are probably too squishy and weird to have a match in current militaries.

Eldar - They're basically ruled by precognitives. Intel's all about taking a peek above the fence. Eldar Seers can look above the fence, through the fence, beyond the fence and 500 years into the future. Probably some more mundane devices used, too (signal jamming seems pretty frequent whenever there's Eldar involved. That suggest some knowledge of enemy communication protocols and technologies. Who knows...)

Tau - Other than the drones and sensors and stuff these guys are interesting in the way that they actually use some sort of political/economic intelligence "agency" - The Water Caste.

Dark Eldar - Piracy requires a good deal of foreknowledge. No 'agencies' or dedicated intelligence units as we know them, but probably an amalgamation of fixers, rumormongers and information brokers handling their own private networks of shady, corrupt individuals.

Chaos Space Marines - A vast network of supporters spread throughout the Galaxy. Other kind of sources, too. The ones that whisper secrets to you in your sleep, in exchange for a pair of horns, eyes on your palms or a double set of jaws. Gross.

'Crons - If I recall correctly, Necrons have this 'diviner' guy, able to predict events millenia away. Dunno if its just Orikan or if there's more like him but, in the end, they're the technological ecquivalent of Eldar Seers. Good for taking a look at the big picture while the mindshackle scarabs and the morphing Lords gather the details.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Tyranids - Their intel-gathering devices are probably too squishy and weird to have a match in current militaries.

Surely for Nids, it would be Genestealer Cults?

Chaos and Nidz probably rely a bit on their cults. Or at least for the purposes of just finding a target.


And Chaos also has the Alpha Legion and forces of tzeentch

Nidz probably also use their Lictors for scouting and maybe their various synapse creatures can be a bit like eldar farseers

Sturmtruppen wrote:I wonder if the IG have dedicated Intelligence Corps.

There is commisariart intelegence mentioned in Dan Abnetts bloodpact, but there is no real depth to it in the story.

Sturmtruppen wrote:

Agent_Tremolo wrote:Tyranids - Their intel-gathering devices are probably too squishy and weird to have a match in current militaries.

Surely for Nids, it would be Genestealer Cults?

Sure!. We know the autonomous Genestealer Cults lure the hive fleets towards targets of opportunity and weak spots in the Imperium's defences.

I was thinking more of intelligence processes wherever the Hive Mind has an established presence. The Intelligence Cycle already tries to mimic the ways an organic individual has to become aware and react to its surroundings. In the case of the Hive Mind, we're dealing with an actual individual. "Intelligence" as in the process of collecting information, processing it and deciding a course of action is as natural for the Hive Mind as it is for you to read those lines (probably easier. The Hive Mind doesn't have to deal with my garbled English )

It probably has specialized "organs" for each task, though...

Need to read more on Tyranids. Been facing them alot recently and their fluff is starting to grow on me.

Necrons make extensive use of Night Scythes and Mindshackle Scarabs.

Pg. 51 Codex: Necrons - "Night Scythes are often employed as far-ranging scout ships ... the Night Scythe's pilot may go so far as to transport living samples back to its Tomb World for further inspection by Crypteks ... a few abductees are returned to their homes, but even these are implanted with mindshackle-scarabs or other control mechanisms to enable them to function as unsuspecting spies and saboteurs who will pave the way for imminent invasion."

Zookie wrote:Does each (or some) race have intelligence operations?

For each race who would do:

Cryptography and signaling (like the NSA in the US or the GCHQ in the UK)

Military intelligence (like the DIA in the US or the DIS in the UK)

Foreign intelligence (like the CIA in the US or the SIS in the UK)

I imagine some races would have a single group that might do all three
(I think the Tyranid use Lictors and Genestealers/Genestealer cults to
do their reconnaissance and of course some races would not need
traditional intelligence gathering (like the Eldar. Who needs spies
when you have a Farseer). But what about the other races?

I wanna say the field agents for SM s would be scouts

Xeriapt wrote:Pretty sure orks dont need intel lol.

ork "intel......what's dis intelz?"