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If its a space wolves drop pod list

just go look up a logan wing terminator list with the pods ( wolf guard termies cant deepstrike).

-FrostTooth

thank you EVERYONE for the great advice, time for me to lose a paycheck in my FLGS

Drop pods do not seem particularly scary to me, but I totally get about the game-changing nature of unusual deployment rules. I used to feel this way about DE being able to reserve completely and then try to come in force and cripple you before you can respond.

And yes, it is not fun to get crippled first turn by some weird combination of general rules and specific army rules, especially when you are just starting out and don't know the rule system. Is it legal? Yes. Is it fun? Not for the one getting stomped and looking stupid.

For me, the solution has to do with fundamental rules. The fact that one player gets a complete turn with all toys before the other is the equivalent to what would be taking 5 consecutive moves in chess before the opponent can respond. If activation is alternated between players on a squad by squad basis rather than army by army, a huge set of current beat-face strategies would evaporate. If this is too drastic, one can simply put some limitation of how much can be reserved, in point percentile, squad percentile, or type of unit. Yet another mechanic is to have snap-fire units as in Epic Space Marines or simply general snap-fire rules in Epic 40k. To me, the alpha strike shenanigans are even more annoying as they are usually coupled with a single die rolloff for initiative. Losing initiative in some matchups becomes a huge disadvantage that foreshadows the outcome of the game to too high an extent.

A counterargument can be made that randomizing the mission and deployment can offer some variety and shake things up, and I agree there is truth to it. But, alpha strike armies tend not to be affected nearly as much by them, because if they lose initiative or do not like deployment/mission, they will reserve anyway and dictate their own conditions.

Finally, counterarguments like "it is balanced because it is up to the dice" can immediately be dismissed as silly. Skewing a 2-hour game in the first minute of it by a single die rolloff is not balanced in my book.

Thankfully Reserving normally isn't that devastating a strategy for most alpha strike armies, because either...

1. They lack Reserve manipulation abilities, and thus their force will normally straggle on to the table, and/or...
2. Moving & shooting diminishes their firepower, so they can't hit as hard as they move on, and/or...
3. Moving on from the table edge impairs their range or LOS options in such a way that they can't shoot so effectively.

Mannahnin wrote:Thankfully Reserving normally isn't that devastating a strategy for most alpha strike armies, because either...

1. They lack Reserve manipulation abilities, and thus their force will normally straggle on to the table, and/or...
2. Moving & shooting diminishes their firepower, so they can't hit as hard as they move on, and/or...
3. Moving on from the table edge impairs their range or LOS options in such a way that they can't shoot so effectively.

AFAIK, none of the above hold true for DE. They can move 12 and still fire at full effect at 36-48" which is more than enough range after a 12" move. LOS is very difficult to deny them because of mobility and because they can come in from any point of their side. If somehow you manage to hide, this just means you don't get to shoot them with that unit, while they rake up the rest of your army. Finally, IIRC they have a special rules that modify their reserve rolls. They can only get screwed by particularly bad reserve rolls, which only happens once in a blue moon.

The other example I am thinking of is outflanking vendettas. IG has reserve manipulation through officer of the fleet and astropath, so scratch #1. As fast vehicles, they can move in 6" and fire at full effect, so scratch #2. They can outflank from any point on the rolled side, so scratch #3. Outflanking is even better than what DE get, because you get to shoot rear armor. Of course the entire army cannot be vendettas, but the points still hold.

Nope. They don't have anything to help with Reserve rolls.

This means that unless they get lucky, they're only going to get about half their stuff on the table T2, which against another good shooting army usually means they're in trouble. While the guns on the vehicles are 36" range, which means they can threaten most of the table when they arrive, all the guys inside the transports are limited to a 12"-18" threat range, and can only fire if the transport moves up to 6", so all the Trueborn and Warriors in the skimmers aren't doing anything on T2 or T3 unless the opponent moved aggressively forward.


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Vendettas are more than 6" long in every direction, so when they move onto the table they only get to shoot one gun, as they have to move at Cruising speed to even enter, or they're destroyed.

All the guys in the IG transports are also limited in range like the DE (all those vet squads full of meltaguns aren't going to be in range until T3 or T4 unless the enemy is driving down their thoats), and their vehicles can mostly (hellhound variants, valks and vendettas aside) only move 6" and fire one gun, so their threat is substantially reduced as they come on as well. Even with OotF, they're still only getting 2/3 of their stuff on T2, which means 1/3rd is doing nothing, and a fully-deployed enemy has the numerical advantage in points on the table and guns able to fire at full effect.

Mannahnin wrote:Nope. They don't have anything to help with Reserve rolls.

This means that unless they get lucky, they're only going to get about half their stuff on the table T2, which against another good shooting army usually means they're in trouble. While the guns on the vehicles are 36" range, which means they can threaten most of the table when they arrive, all the guys inside the transports are limited to a 12"-18" threat range, and can only fire if the transport moves up to 6", so all the Trueborn and Warriors in the skimmers aren't doing anything on T2 or T3 unless the opponent moved aggressively forward.

I could have bet my head they have a special character that improves their reserve rolls. Need to reread my codex.

Also, IME the warriors and the trueborn are not the alpha strike. It is the massed dark lances and the venoms that murder you. The trueborn just help finish off later whatever is left.

Regarding vendettas, IME players just stick the base in, then complain the model is fragile and take it off. Then they spend the rest of the game moving the base around. If you complain about it, you look like TFG. Just a few games ago I got triple-shot by outflanking vendettas. Also, the deployment rules allow you to move in 6 inches and drop out the melta vets, which can then shoot as normal due to assault weapons. It is difficult to have nothing within 18 inches of either side of the board.


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Mannahnin wrote:
All the guys in the IG transports are also limited in range like the DE (all those vet squads full of meltaguns aren't going to be in range until T3 or T4 unless the enemy is driving down their thoats),

One of the upgrades the vets can take is scouts, which allows them to outflank. It costs, but it is effective.

The trouble DE armies have is balancing enough Dark Lances with enough Splinter Cannons. S8 non-melta shooting just isn't that scary to most vehicles (except land raiders), especially if the opponent has cover, which he will quite a bit of the time (hello popping smoke just before the DE T2). If they load up on lances they don't have much splinter fire and get worked over by long fangs and GK psycannons, and if they load up on venoms they tend to get their butts shot off by IG. IG are kind of a nightmare matchup for them in general. Cheap AV12 is mathematically the least favorable thing for Dark Lances to be shooting at.

All that aside, though, it's the fact that they have no Reserve manipulation which really defangs them coming out of Reserve.


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IG are definitely better than DE out of Reserve, but it's still overall a loss for them most of the time. Against a shooty opponent they lose their close-range shots for the first few turns, they only get 2/3 of the long-range shots (and none of the move-or-fire stuff) on turn 2 even with OotF, and their opponent gets everything. Against an assaulty opponent, the opponent gets 2 turns of unrestricted movement straight toward the IG table edge, which is a HUGE boon to getting into assault range intact.

Mannahnin wrote:The trouble DE armies have is balancing enough Dark Lances with enough Splinter Cannons. S8 non-melta shooting just isn't that scary to most vehicles (except land raiders), especially if the opponent has cover, which he will quite a bit of the time (hello popping smoke just before the DE T2).

It is quite effective against AV14 leman russes and the new monolith. I have stopped taking Monoliths completely due to dark lance threat. The monolith is too big to get cover most of the time, and it cannot pop smoke. Leman russes can pop smoke but only once.

If they load up on lances they don't have much splinter fire and get worked over by long fangs and GK psycannons, and if they load up on venoms they tend to get their butts shot off by IG. IG are kind of a nightmare matchup for them in general. Cheap AV12 is mathematically the least favorable thing for Dark Lances to be shooting at.

Agreed if the list is the chimera-meltavet spam. But more balanced lists have expensive LRs that get popped. The typical DE lists that I see tend to have venoms, raiders, ravagers, and wyches. This combo covers almost everything desirable except toughness/armor. I bet long fangs will be killed by wyches, not splinters.

Fair point on the monoliths and Russes. Monoliths definitely suffer if there's any significant dark lance presence in your local metagame.

If Wyches are a given DE list's answer to LF, those fangs are probably going to kill at least two skimmers per squad before the wyches get there.

Mannahnin wrote:

If Wyches are a given DE list's answer to LF, those fangs are probably going to kill at least two skimmers per squad before the wyches get there.

On average, 5 launchers will produce 3 hits, converted to 2 pens, one of which will get saved by flatout cover. So, one pen, which will kill an open top 50% of the time. So, three long fang squads will likely down 1.5 transports per turn. Usually, the wyches will be all over the long fangs on the turn after that. Once they reach, my money is on the space elves.

A pen which gets through kills a flat out open topped skimmer 66% of the time. A glance is also a 33% kill before cover. Each hit is about 49% chance of a kill before cover saves. And you rounded down to hit. 15 launchers, 10 hits, 2.5 kills including cover, so about equal chances of 2 or 3, though bear in mind that flat out from the table edge is quite possibly not in disembark+move+fleet+charge if the Raider gets Stunned, either, so that helps the SW too. If a Raider goes down the wyches inside lose just under half their squad, then may be getting rapid-fired by GH.

If the wyches get there, 10 wyches, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 5 wounds, ~2 dead SW. Call it 3 for drugs, though I rounded down on the SW saves. 3 LF, 6-9 attacks, ~3-5hits, 1-3 wounds, ~1-2 dead wyches. LF hold on for a turn which allows a GH squad to come rescue if one is available. Of course, one might not be available because the DE are trying to overwhelm with cheaper units, but SW are relatively inexpensive for a SM army.

It's a good fight but overall definitely in favor of the SW if they have first turn and the DE are forced into Reserving.

IIRC, Wyches have sergeants with PW (hekatrices??) and they also usually get joined by haemonculi. PW will swing the assault in the wyches' favor. Also, if all launchers concentrate on the wych transports, the lance gunboats and venoms remain to victimize the rest.

I agree it would be a good fight, but we are comparing two of the strongest lists in the game. My original point was that the alpha strike shenanigans are not balanced due to fundamental rules, and lead to problems especially with modest lists and/or beginner players. Saying that the shenanigans are not that effective against a well-played top list, while true, does not refute my own assertion.

Which was my initial argument in the first place except obviously I lack the elegance of bitching and making sense =]

I enjoyed the comparison of free moves to my 1.

That is pretty much bang on in my mind of why I regard the DP as broken and fun sucking.

Necrontyr40k wrote:IIRC, Wyches have sergeants with PW (hekatrices??) and they also usually get joined by haemonculi. PW will swing the assault in the wyches' favor. Also, if all launchers concentrate on the wych transports, the lance gunboats and venoms remain to victimize the rest.

I agree it would be a good fight, but we are comparing two of the strongest lists in the game.

I agree that there's nothing to be proved by theoryhammering it, as the whole exercise gets too complex and is very dependent on terrain, exact force composition, and the mission in question. Suffice it to say that my experience is that even a maximized DE army, if mechanized and facing a good shooty enemy army, tends to be in trouble when going second. Their vehicles are sufficiently fragile that they suffer heavy casualties before they move if they start on the board, and if they Reserve they only get 50% of their stuff on T2 on average, which more than outweighs the durability benefits of a 4+ cover save on some of their skimmers from going Flat Out. They lose out on firepower and they lose out on durability by Reserving.

Necrontyr40k wrote:My original point was that the alpha strike shenanigans are not balanced due to fundamental rules, and lead to problems especially with modest lists and/or beginner players. Saying that the shenanigans are not that effective against a well-played top list, while true, does not refute my own assertion.

I agree that against inexperienced players, particularly ones unwilling to learn and adapt to new challenges, they can be overwhelming. I contend that your assertion that these kind of armies (especially pod-based and DE) are overpowered is incorrect, and your lack of knowledge about some particularly major elements (DE lacking any rule to give them better odds with Reserves, in particular) betrays some fundamental misconceptions and limited direct experience, which mean your limited and faulty data has led to erroneous conclusions.

I'm thinking of doing a small (500-1000pts) heresy era Salamanders drop pod force, the fluff being that because of Isstvann, the surviving elements of the legion did what they could as they fell back to Nocturne and after that, mainly limited to hitting isolted traitor bases and supply lines and ambushing them when possible. I was thinking a couple of 10 man tacical squads in drop pods, a couple of land speeders and either a devestator, stern gaurd or terminator squad in a drop pod. How would that work? I was thinking a librarian as my hQ.

So, something just struck me re-reading things here.

Mannahnin wrote:The nature of the pod army just changes the emphasis and orientation of the game...

Certainly there are styles to the game. The all-out charge, the gunline, the all-reserve-super-fast, etc. in which podding is one of said styles. You may prefer certain styles over other certain styles (I know I certainly do), and you might even wish that your opponents played in your preferred style.

But you absolutely know that if there was only one way to play a game of 40k that people would be complaining until their blue about how boring of a game 40k is. I mean, people already complain against how boring it is to constantly play against mech gunline everywhere - well, it would only be worse if the game actually enforced there being a single style or two.

I may not personally like facing gunlines, and you may not fancy facing a drop pod list as much, but the game as a whole is certainly much stronger by having multiple, very different ways of engaging in combat and completing missions.

Necrontyr40k wrote:
Regarding vendettas, IME players just stick the base in, then complain the model is fragile and take it off. Then they spend the rest of the game moving the base around. If you complain about it, you look like TFG. Just a few games ago I got triple-shot by outflanking vendettas. Also, the deployment rules allow you to move in 6 inches and drop out the melta vets, which can then shoot as normal due to assault weapons. It is difficult to have nothing within 18 inches of either side of the board.


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Mannahnin wrote:
All the guys in the IG transports are also limited in range like the DE (all those vet squads full of meltaguns aren't going to be in range until T3 or T4 unless the enemy is driving down their thoats),

One of the upgrades the vets can take is scouts, which allows them to outflank. It costs, but it is effective.

So outflanking and deep striking is boring because players in your area cheat? Go figure...

Veterans also can't take any scout upgrade IIRC, they can take an upgrade that gives them defensive grenades, but not scouts. The only way to outflank Veterans is to put them in Valkyrie/Vendetta Gunships, upgrade them with Harker or have CREEEEEEEEEEED! give them Scouts.

AWalrus, I think he was thinking of Stormtroopers. Who can Outflank, but obviously don't Score like vets.

My opinion,

All drop pod armies have to many limitations. First, as others have posted, you can get defeated in detail. Reserve rolls can mess you up.

I think the magic number is 1 or 3. It's more a less a 'tempo' move. Your opponent MAY be forced to alter his deployment due to drop pod assault.

Of any army out there, I think space wolves can handle drop podding better than any other codex out there. The grey hunters are just that good and logan with long fangs can get stupid. Expensive, but stupid.

If space wolf pods could hold 12 like vanilla marines, I would consider a drop pod heavy list. It would be insane...

2 pods can actually be quite nice as well, particularly if they're different units which work better against different opponents late game or early game.

A friend of mine runs Vulkan vanilla with an Ironclad in one pod and either a Sternguard squad or a Tac squad in the other (depending on points level and what else is in the list). This gives him the flexibility of picking one of two substantially different units to drop early, and keep the other one as a strategic reserve to go solve a problem or take or contest an objective later.