Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

General_Chaos wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote: Add to this I gave my wraiths a transdimensional beamer, and particle caster giving me a 1/3 chance of removing one random terminator from play during the shooting phase and the tesla fire from the night scythe if not blown up.

I am sure you know this but the Transdimensional beamer is Heavy 1 so you shoot, then on your next turn assault... I like where this is going, it's genius, mind-games, 40k is more than just a dice game you got to into your opponents head if you want to be WAAC!

Your opponents gunna be like "why would did he shoot a 15 point heavy weapon me that has a 33% chance of killing one model instead of assaulting me... he's got to have something up his sleeve...hmmm..." and you just sit there with a poker face and watch the confusion reign... laughing on the inside...yah WAAC indeed!

Huh, learn something new everytime. Well, Ive been posting this at work, and focusing on painting up my army, so havent been reading the codex. Instead of beamers I get 45 points to spend on my CCB overlord. Thank you, my list just got better. Ive never actually shot the beamers, except in one game to be honest, and that was when I played defensively to bait some paladins. I use them for that extra wound allocaiton.

Edit: Feth it Im keeping em for wound shenanigans, single model units and baiting.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Feth it Im keeping em for wound shenanigans, single model units and baiting.

That's... generally not a good idea.
Having a heavy weapon in a fast and hard melee unit is rarely ever worth it (unless you're only keeping the Wraiths there as a distraction unit, so you want them to stick around longer, but contribute less... which is a horrible misuse of one of the best units Necrons have at their disposal).

Also, your Flayed Ones example was a little too reliant on many things going in your favor over the course of a few turns. In reality, I would expect to see that squad swept and wiped by Hammer'nators.
At the moment, the consensus is that they are borderline useless, as they are just too vulnerable (deep striking them in will only see them sit there for a turn to be shot and/or assaulted).
Until we see a change in deep strike rules, Flayed Ones will remain at the bottom/sh*t tier of the codex.

Sorry that is your opinion but imo point for point flayed ones can tie hameernators for at least 2 rounds as they now repair even against almost any weapon. Say you have 5 TH/SS terminators from the regular codex, as BA cost more to take. So you have 200 points. I get 15 flayed ones for 195. So before you hit, and if you get off the charge I only get to swing at you 45 times. If I do charge, I get to attack you 60 times. Usually I have flayed ones focus on regular power armor units, but this is just an example of what they can pull off.

Admitedly, flayed ones struggle on their own, but I use them for intimidation that cannot be ignored. I usually make it their goal to annoy someone with the possible number of attacks and using a resurection orb destroyer lord that hides in the unit makes their chances of hitting you that much faster because of 2" repair coherency. They can also deep strike in last minute to contest multiple objectives with the lord with some lucky rolling.

Heres another list. Im just gonna use this log to keep all my lists in one place.




Destroyer Lord semp MSS and res orb
Overlord CCB w/warscythe
Necron Harbringer of Destruction with solar pulse
3X6 wraiths 1 particle caster 3 whip coils
5 warriors night scythe
5 warriors
10 flayed ones

genuine question: have you actually had this happen, or is this speculation on how things would work out?

Come to this thread late, but it seems you've spent too much money on flayed ones and don't seem to want to hear they are a sub-optimal choice.

In most cases, they get shot to bits on the turn they arrive and with average toughness/armour they get killed by bolter fire, or due to the deep strike clump up get taken out by a single blast template. Those 10 - 15 will never get into combat - probably less than half at best and then they are slow to stirke and no power wpn/rending and so die in a turn. The attached Lord will do some stuff but you will likely lose combat by a couple of wounds ... and that's against an I1 opponent. Anything that strikes first could shred all the FOs before anyone of them get to strike. Lone DL is then in trouble ...

ruminator wrote:Come to this thread late, but it seems you've spent too much money on flayed ones and don't seem to want to hear they are a sub-optimal choice.

I spent $90 for 24 flayed ones as in 2 boxes of converted warriors, ordering hormagaunt talons online. In 1500 points 10 flayed ones with a lord in a night scythe is more than enough of a threat, and it will gurantee them to assault something usually, as wraiths and the CCB are a much bigger threat. Just be patient and wait for the BR after the 13th from the local tournament where I can actually demonstrate their effectiveness.

Defeatmyarmy wrote: Just be patient and wait for the BR after the 13th from the local tournament where I can actually demonstrate their effectiveness.

Be ready to get turned on your head internets!!! Flayed Ones the new internet sensation!!! Tune in next week when he shows how good Chaos spawn are!

FO aren't all that bad once you get them in combat with a good enough number, as a distraction/harasser unit them seem decent.

It's actually pretty interesting combining FO and wraiths, I REALLY like the sound of that.

General_Chaos wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote: Just be patient and wait for the BR after the 13th from the local tournament where I can actually demonstrate their effectiveness.

Be ready to get turned on your head internets!!! Flayed Ones the new internet sensation!!! Tune in next week when he shows how good Chaos spawn are!

Haha thats pretty funny. I wish I were joking. Im gonna try a few different lists, but its starting to look like Throne of Skulls will be 50/50 event for me or a 100% one day event for me as I couldnt get off the last 3 GTs from work. Also, I realised that my FLGS have 1700+ game, not 1500 so the BR wont matter as it wont be for 1500.

Im guessing having my Jump Attack +2 attack army vs my Cron assault wing would be the best way to go, as FNP will put wraiths at a big disadvantage. So whats your opinion internet? Do an 1850 BR for the BDG tournament or have one of my armies vs. another in my free time?

ruminator wrote:Come to this thread late, but it seems you've spent too much money on flayed ones and don't seem to want to hear they are a sub-optimal choice.

In most cases, they get shot to bits on the turn they arrive and with average toughness/armour they get killed by bolter fire, or due to the deep strike clump up get taken out by a single blast template. Those 10 - 15 will never get into combat - probably less than half at best and then they are slow to stirke and no power wpn/rending and so die in a turn. The attached Lord will do some stuff but you will likely lose combat by a couple of wounds ... and that's against an I1 opponent. Anything that strikes first could shred all the FOs before anyone of them get to strike. Lone DL is then in trouble ...

This is completely false.

A.) If they are shooting at your Flayed Ones, they are shooting at a unit that is tied with only the warriors in terms of resiliency/point cost against the 95% of the weapon matrix (with only template weapons with AP4 or lower being their one weakness, not a particularly prevalent chasis in the current meta). This means they are NOT shooting at the Wraiths, Warriors, Immortals etc. and they are instead inefficiently shooting at the Flayed Ones. Everything in the game can be shot at, so arguing that "Don't bring it cause they might shoot at it" is just an uniformed argument.

B.) Your appraisal of their combat prowess has little in game applicability (as in, not true most of the time). People act like the only thing the Flayed Ones will ever assault are the dedicated CC units that are better then them, but that's just a ridiculous assumption. Wraiths completely bitch pwn Trygons in CC, does this make Trygons worthless? Of course not. In reality, as in the games that actually exists that people actually play, you're going to be assaulting an MSU shooty squad more often then not and the idea that 7 to 8 Flayed Ones (if they did concentrate enough fire power to bring them to that state) can't take on 5 MeQ basis with one attack a piece in CC is just silly. People act like Initiative alone decides CC, tell that to multiple DE units with superior initiative they die horrible in CC.

Case in point, say 5 Flayed Ones are left over from a squad of 15 (which would mean they ate the equivalent of ~85 bolter shots the turn before...again, that's a lot of fire power not shooting other things) and they assault 5 Tac MeQ. Are you really proposing that they couldn't win this extremely likely scenario (hint: they should pretty handledly obliterate the Tacs on the SM players turn and maybe lose one base in the process, in other words, exactly what you want a CC unit to accomplish).

Anyway /rant

I'll say this again, in my experience, 99% of the people that dog on Flayed Ones have never used them, used them poorly, or did a poor job evaluating them. People generally think of only "What did it kill?" when evaluating a unit, and don't consider "How much fire power did it absorb?" and "What did it force my opponent to do that he would not have had to do otherwise if they weren't there?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, in regards to a single blast template after DSing...you know there is this rule called "Run"...welcome to 5th edition .

Edit: Grammars>Shadar

skoffs wrote: In reality, I would expect to see that squad swept and wiped by Hammer'nators.

Then your expecting something that is not backed up by reality. If the Flayed Ones get the charge they should tie or barely lose the first round of combat, have at worse a 9 or under on 2d6 to pass (83%) chance of passing, and after RP should be looking at about 13 Flayed Ones versus 2 to 3 TH/SS, which they should win. If the TH/SS get the charge the FOs lose by 2ish, needing to pass an 8 or under (73%), leaving them 12 to 3 after RP, and again, a fight they should win handedly. Basically, as long as they pass the first leadership test, which should be at worse a 73% chance, they win the fight, with minimal casualties (maybe 5 or 6 bases).

@shador
Thank you! Flayed one definitely are one of the more "advanced" units in the codex, very few necron armies include them because if how much you have to pay for 5 of them. They tie up monstrous creatures and can go blow for blow with any average space marine or shoots boyz.

I know I said it earlier but I'll say it again. Used properly, flayed ones have won me several games. They are underestimated every time and whether it's blowing up a vindicator or charging an outflanking troop tervigon they killed in 2 turns the flays have always pulled out what I expect them to do.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:@shador
Thank you! Flayed one definitely are one of the more "advanced" units in the codex, very few necron armies include them because if how much you have to pay for 5 of them. They tie up monstrous creatures and can go blow for blow with any average space marine or shoots boyz.

I know I said it earlier but I'll say it again. Used properly, flayed ones have won me several games. They are underestimated every time and whether it's blowing up a vindicator or charging an outflanking troop tervigon they killed in 2 turns the flays have always pulled out what I expect them to do.

No problem buddy, keep fighting the good fight. 40k "Consensus" on the interwebs has a lot more to do with memetics and game theory then it does with actual viability.

Defeatmyarmy wrote: They are underestimated every time and whether it's blowing up a vindicator or charging an outflanking troop tervigon they killed in 2 turns the flays have always pulled out what I expect them to do.

I get what you're saying here.

I feel this way towards the consensus of Firewarriors.

Sure they may not look good on paper and the wacky world of webbernets don't like seeing 'em, but once thrown into the most optimal(or sub-optimal) environment they can really shine. (e.g. light transport shooting stopgap, monstrous creature/Small-unit killing to free up better targets for everything else)

Well, im dropping flayed ones for now. Lychguard are just too good for similar tactics.

Overlord with phase shackle war Scythe weave res orb

Harbinger of despair with teleport

Harbinger tof destruction solar pulse

3x 5 wraiths 3 coils 1 particle caster

9 lychguard phase sword and dispersion shield

2x5 warriors

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Well, im dropping flayed ones for now. Lychguard are just too good for similar tactics.

Overlord with phase shackle war Scythe weave res orb

Harbinger of despair with teleport

Harbinger tof destruction solar pulse

3x 5 wraiths 3 coils 1 particle caster

9 lychguard phase sword and dispersion shield

2x5 warriors

Well come on give us a detailed write up why your pulling the Flayed Ones why Lychguard are a better choice. I like Lychguard I use them in my friendly games all the time but I don't find them very points efficient for a tournament game.

General_Chaos wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Well, im dropping flayed ones for now. Lychguard are just too good for similar tactics.

Overlord with phase shackle war Scythe weave res orb

Harbinger of despair with teleport

Harbinger tof destruction solar pulse

3x 5 wraiths 3 coils 1 particle caster

9 lychguard phase sword and dispersion shield

2x5 warriors

Well come on give us a detailed write up why your pulling the Flayed Ones why Lychguard are a better choice. I like Lychguard I use them in my friendly games all the time but I don't find them very points efficient for a tournament game.

Flayed ones are really good for certain armies, but my wraiths have been struggling to rend on opponents lately and I need to kill things as fast as possible. My flayed ones have been winning games because of sheer force of attacks, but my army had no MSS in it. Lychguard have T5 S5 power weapons a 3+ regular save and 4+ invulnerable. Not everyone uses poison weapons so T5 really reduces damage (helps a lot against single casting hammerhand GK) and Giving my overlord a res orb and attaching the teleporter to Lychguard allow them to get in the enemies face fast. In higher points games such as 1750 I would take a cryptek of eternity with chronometron and replace the teleporter with obyron as he allows the unit to leave combat .

In a more shooting based army, such as 30 in a ghost ark shield I realised flayed ones are perfect to hide in the arks to shield warriors from incoming assaults. Then if and when the flayed ones break, surviving about 50% of the time if I charge with multiple squads, the enemy should get shot to pieces with all the rapid fire if I lose combat on their turn. With that said, heres the list revised.

Overlord with warscythe MSS res orb phase shifter

2x harbringers of destruction 1 solar pulse

1 harbringer of despair with veil of darkness

2x5 Warriors

9 lychguard with phase swords and dispersion shields

3x5 wraiths whip coils

As much as people diss Flayed Ones, really they are just as good as Beastmasters (at least again power armour) and a unit of 15 F.O's costs the same as a decent Beastmaster unit. No one complains Beastmasters are rubbish.

The Flayed Ones I personally wouldn't take, but a large unit of them could cause some damage, so I wouldn't dismiss them.

I am also not sure why Flayed Ones vs Hammernators is coming into the equation. Flayed Ones should be picking on something can stand a good chance against i.e Tactical Squad.

However, out of the close combat units, Flayed Ones are really the worst of the bunch, which is a shame as the disco jiving, moon walking, fine cast Flayed One really gives me a boner

Any reason you're not sticking a Combat Lord in the Lychguard unit instead of the Overlord?
He does the same job, and would let your Overlord scoot around on a Command Barge.

@scoffs

I made this list estimating points costs as I didn't have army builder or my codex at work. I can't have a lord and a cryptek in the same unit. I have my codex this time and will be posting it ASAP tonight around 1 am

Ah, yes, didn't realize you were only running one Overlord level HQ.
Yeah, I guess that would be a legitimate reason.

Revised list

Ccb lord scythe
Tek I despair with veil

Overlord phase scythe mss
Lord res mss phase sword
Tek destruction pulse

5 warriors

5 warriors

7 lychguard phase sword and shield

5 wraiths 1 coils

5 wraiths 1 coil

4 wraiths 1 coil

... seriously?
only one Whip Coil per unit of Wraiths?
(is this your first time running them or something?)

These lists are pretty much up in the air until 6th. I plan to do some switching around, since wysiwyg I have 9 coils. I am following reecius wisdom of more boys less toys back when I played chaos marines. Honestly I'm considering dropping some upgrades to get all 18.

a simple rule of thumb tends to be:
more than half of your Wraiths should have coils... but not more than two thirds (so 3 out of 5, or 4 out of 6)

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

ruminator wrote:Come to this thread late, but it seems you've spent too much money on flayed ones and don't seem to want to hear they are a sub-optimal choice.

I spent $90 for 24 flayed ones as in 2 boxes of converted warriors, ordering hormagaunt talons online. In 1500 points 10 flayed ones with a lord in a night scythe is more than enough of a threat, and it will gurantee them to assault something usually, as wraiths and the CCB are a much bigger threat. Just be patient and wait for the BR after the 13th from the local tournament where I can actually demonstrate their effectiveness.

So, did the tournament happen on the 13th?

Here's a list straight outta left field. Im bringing the flayed ones back b****es! I'm fighting reecius tyranids tomorrow with it. Gonna prove their value yet again hopefully.

@rumonator
No one came to battle bunkers tournament except reecius roommate who defeated me with a very well rounded blood angel list.

Obyron
20 flayed ones
2x5 warriors night scythe
3x6 wraiths 3 coils

Hit and runs with obyron and flayees you know the rest.