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You give me a legal system that is 100% guaranteed to never ever make a single mistake and put the wrong individual to death and I will agree to the death penalty.

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

oh here you are:

dæl wrote:use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

At the going rate of an injection, you kind of feel as if you were just sacked by barbarians.

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

I'm pretty sure insulting nationalities is against the rules. But what do I know, I'm simply a barbaric American.

If only we had a national Church so we could have their leader around to approve our laws.

I don't know about in other countries, but the American prison system seems to mostly serve to Harden/Create more serious criminals.

@AustonT If I were a troll, I wouldn't be saying things I believe in, America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, Japan still has it, but barely uses it, look at a list of criminals executed by number. It goes China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, USA. That isn't good company to keep. Killing people is wrong believe it or not, regardless of whether it is state sanctioned.

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

Person from country with state Christian religion refers to US as "most Christian nation"

Refers to contradictory text

Calls names

/troll says troll things.

AustonT wrote:

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

Person from country with state Christian religion refers to US as "most Christian nation"

Refers to contradictory text

Calls names

/troll says troll things.

The death penalty IS barbaric.
American politicians must appease the massive number of Christians to have any type of mandate.
Old Testament = Eye for an eye, New Testament = turn the other cheek.

So who did I call names? And where did I contradict myself?

d-usa wrote:This thread is full of facepalm...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

You must be referring to some mythical land. There is no country named "America." Evidently your educational system could use a little revamping, or you just drooled on your desk. Death penalty for you!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:Killing people is wrong believe it or not, regardless of whether it is state sanctioned.

Genghis Khan is rolling over in his grave. Wo settle down now Genghis. He didn't mean it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dæl wrote:

AustonT wrote:

dæl wrote:I find it funny that the most "Christian" country in the world is so old testament in it's thinking. There is a reason that America is pretty much the only developed country to use the death penalty, because it's barbaric.

Person from country with state Christian religion refers to US as "most Christian nation"

Refers to contradictory text

Calls names

/troll says troll things.

The death penalty IS barbaric.
American politicians must appease the massive number of Christians to have any type of mandate.
Old Testament = Eye for an eye, New Testament = turn the other cheek.

So who did I call names? And where did I contradict myself?

Maybe its because your tiny but oh so cute when it gets angry little island of a country has a state religion and the USA doesn't?

Frazzled wrote:

You must be referring to some mythical land. There is no country named "America." Evidently your educational system could use a little revamping, or you just drooled on your desk. Death penalty for you!

Genghis Khan is rolling over in his grave. Wo settle down now Genghis. He didn't mean it.

Maybe its because your tiny but oh so cute when it gets angry little island of a country has a state religion and the USA doesn't?

You're right, I meant the United States of America (Sorry Canada).
If you can tell me where his grave he's turning in is located I will go and apologise.
We created our State religion, these days we don't really care, hence there is no debate about abortion, and we have Bishops sat in the House of Lords, we also have Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and other assorted religions. At least until the reforms. Our election campaigns aren't focused on trying not to annoy the religious.

Back OT, Prison needs to sort out what it wants to achieve, if it wants to rehabilitate and reintegrate criminals into society, its failing. If it wants to punish to an equal degree as the crime, it's failing. If it wants to protect society, it works temporarily, then releases a more dangerous individual into the populous. If it wants to act as a deterrent, the only thing people seem worried about are the affections of their fellow prisoners, hell, this threat of rape is used by police. It probably succeeds for those who have never been, but once someone knows how to survive there it once again fails.

To be specific, America is one of the most religious countries in the developed world, pretty much twice most other countries:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx

State religion or not, religion certainly has more political weight in America than it does in most other countries.

It's also pretty much true that the rest of the developed world has decided that the death penalty is just a wee bit on the backwards side of things.

EDIT: I think it might be a touch much to imply one causes the other exactly, but they are both true in an objectively measurable sense.

I prefer to stick with the moddel we have here in Norway, althou I wont denie it may need some nior reworkings. But all in all I am pleased with it.

Chongara wrote:To be specific, America is one of the most religious countries in the developed world, pretty much twice most other countries:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religiosity-highest-world-poorest-nations.aspx

State religion or not, religion certainly has more political weight in America than it does in most other countries.

It's also pretty much true that the rest of the developed world has decided that the death penalty is just a wee bit on the backwards side of things.

EDIT: I think it might be a touch much to imply one causes the other exactly, but they are both true in an objectively measurable sense.

Define developed world. China's fine with it and their GDP stomps and their population is more than the North America and Europe's combined you western imperialist yankee dog you. Plus they are going to the Moon. One of these days Alice er Mei, right to the moon!

dæl wrote:
The death penalty IS barbaric.
American politicians must appease the massive number of Christians to have any type of mandate.
Old Testament = Eye for an eye, New Testament = turn the other cheek.

So who did I call names? And where did I contradict myself?

Personally, I think it's far more barbaric and outright stupid to release convicted child rapists & murders back into an otherwise peaceful & high functioning community.

I don't advocate the death penalty as a catch-all punishment for every single violent offense in the book. But certain otherwise useless wipes like Bernardo & Rafferty don't deserve to continue breathing, let alone in a cushy isoloated cell with TV and top-notch healthcare paid for on the backs of hard-working and law abiding citizens.
Yes, killing them won't bring back the poor little girls they killed, but it gives closure to their families, and most importantly, it ensures they will never, ever get a chance to take away another innocent family's little girl!

I have a question. Why would you favor punishment as opposed to rehabilitation? I'm actually curious about this.

Frazzled wrote:
Define developed world. China's fine with it and their GDP stomps and their population is more than the North America and Europe's combined you western imperialist yankee dog you. Plus they are going to the Moon. One of these days Alice er Mei, right to the moon!

Often the first criteria is GDP per capita, you also have HDI, quality of life, and I think the World Bank has some criteria too, based on income.

Kofi Annan wrote:A developed country is one that allows all its citizens to enjoy a free and healthy life in a safe environment

LoneLictor wrote:I have a question. Why would you favor punishment as opposed to rehabilitation? I'm actually curious about this.

I happen to think violent felons and serial minor offenders are beyond rehabilitation. Outside those two groups: rehabilitation. I think the fact that over 2 million Americans are in prison is abysmal in a "free" nation.

The only reason I don't support the death penalty for heinous crimes is because of crimes where the wrong person is accused. See the West Memphis Three case: three boys accused of rape and murder, one sentenced to death row, one life in prison, the third had 50 years. Overwhelming evidence supported the boys' innocence, the confession was forced with 30 hrs of no food or water from a mentally handicapped person (and he confessed to the wrong murder weapons), and the boys all had alibis. Yet they were thrown in jail anyway. 20 years later, after massive support from many members of the entertainment industry (including Johnny Depp, Alkaline Trio and Jack Black) and their families' support, they finally walk free. There was evidence proving the father of one of the boys committed the crime, yet he went free for years. If death row was commonplace, one or all of these guys would have died for a crime he/they didn't commit.

However, that said, if there was a way to be 100% certain, I'd support the death penalty, if the crime is deserving. I don't wanna pay taxes to keep Joe Somebody alive in prison for 45 years because he raped a 4 year old child and then force-fed her to his dogs (just got done watching L&O:SVU, sorry for the graphic example). A guy like that deserves death row after having his genitals, fingers, and toes cut off, then have his eyeballs plucked out and his tongue chopped off.

If any part of that doesn't make sense, I'm still exhausted from work-I can try to clean it up and make it more sensible later.


edit-For the autobiography of the boy/man on death row in the WMT case, read "Almost Home" by Damien Echols. I haven't read anything that tragic before that wasn't fiction-but it's a real story of survival. If you can get through it without crying, laughing and hating ignorant people who disapprove of those who are different, I think you may need therapy.

A lot of peoples problems with life imprisonment is the cost, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the prison system in the US is a profit making entity.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

It is, but it seems the profits don't go to the government, but private investors.

I think there have been studies that show that livelong imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty due to the extra security required as well as the added cost of the many appeals.

d-usa wrote:I think there have been studies that show that livelong imprisonment is cheaper than the death penalty due to the extra security required as well as the added cost of the many appeals.

To be fair, if I fully supported the death penalty I would say there would be no cost to throwing the convicted over a cliff onto a pile of rocks near shark infested waters.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with the death penalty in certain cases. Its a moral issue and morality is all relative.

What else are you going to do with serial killers, mass murderers, repeat sex offenders (rapists/child molesters), and other violent criminals?

Amaya wrote:I don't see anything inherently wrong with the death penalty in certain cases. Its a moral issue and morality is all relative.

What else are you going to do with serial killers, mass murderers, repeat sex offenders (rapists/child molesters), and other violent criminals?

I think the biggest objection to the death penalty isn't the morality of killing another human being, but the possibility of killing an innocent (which has happened plenty of times before). If new evidence comes up after 10 years in a prison sentence that person can be released, but if you kill them and they are proven innocent 10 years later it's not going to do them any good.



Also Fraz, Genghis Khan was a fairly unpleasant fellow, should we really be looking to him as a moral agent?

The prison system is a conspiracy. They use criminals to do dirt cheap labor and leave them entirely incapable of providing for themselves when they're released. Quite despicable.

US has 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of the world's people. Oh, and prison workers get 25 cents an hour. and if they don't like it they get isolation. It has been referred to, quite significantly given the ethnic make up of the prison population, as slave labour.

"no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens."

This is what happens when you base policy of really serious matters on sports rules. Three strikes and you're out? why not 10 second stop-go penalty? (maybe like a sin-bin) Or let first service? (first offence? off you go) or free kick? (you robbed this person they get a free kick, into your gonads)

dæl wrote:US has 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of the world's people. Oh, and prison workers get 25 cents an hour. and if they don't like it they get isolation. It has been referred to, quite significantly given the ethnic make up of the prison population, as slave labour.

"no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens."

I'd like to see a source, that number beggars belief.

This is what happens when you base policy of really serious matters on sports rules. Three strikes and you're out? why not 10 second stop-go penalty? (maybe like a sin-bin) Or let first service? (first offence? off you go) or free kick? (you robbed this person they get a free kick, into your gonads)

This is traditionally how the justice system worked, with crime being seen as more of an offence against the victim than an offence against the state. The shift occurred during the medieval period for a number of reasons, but primarily because authorities caught on to the profits that could be made through fines.

Check the link I put up earlier in the thread

Hazardous Harry wrote:

dæl wrote:US has 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of the world's people. Oh, and prison workers get 25 cents an hour. and if they don't like it they get isolation. It has been referred to, quite significantly given the ethnic make up of the prison population, as slave labour.

"no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens."

I'd like to see a source, that number beggars belief.

No idea about the 25% claim, but here is one source for raw numbers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

Found one more source:

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poptotal

Estimated numbers of prisoners world wide: 9,250,000
Number of prisoners in the US; 2,266,832
Percentage of the worlds prisoners in the US: 24.5%

World Population according to Wikipedia:

USA 4.47%

dæl wrote:Check the link I put up earlier in the thread

It makes absolutely no reference to where it got those numbers. Even the most amateur journal article could at least do that.

Thought I'd test the assertion that as crime rates have fallen, prison populations have gone up.

Prison population / Crime Statistics

1992 1,295,150 / 14,438,200
1995 1,585,586 / 13,862,700
1998 1,816,931 / 12,475,634
2001 1,961,247 / 11,876,669
2004 2,135,335 / 11,679,474
2007 2,298,041 / 11,251,828

Sources -
Prison population
Crime stats