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CCS x2 (Creed can be a good option since he gives you 4orders)
Then you get at least 4 HWS with autocannons and keep them near your CCS.

Now you sit back and use "bring it down" or "fire on my target" and see all those transports fall to the ground.
"Fire on my target" is excellent since it forces him to reroll his +3cover save when he goes flat-out.
Add some Hydras into that fight and as people already said alot of Chimeras and you kill him long before he even gets near you.

Oh and target the transports with the strongest cc units first.

OK, so how about this for a 1250 list:

HQ: 1 Company Command Squad (Plasma gun x4) (165 pts)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

Fast Attack: 1 Hellhound (Heavy Flamer) (130 pts)

Heavy Support: 1 Manticore Rocket Launcher (160 pts)

Heavy Support: 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (150 pts)

Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (150 pts)
2 Hydra Flak Tank

Total Roster Cost: 1,250

Much better

Awful list, why take mixes of plasma and melta? It means your melta is far less reliable.

Try this

CCS - 4x Plasma, Chimera

4x Veteran Squads - 3x Melta and Chimera

PCS - 3x Melta, Chimera
2x Infantry Squads - Flamer, Autocannon, Chimera
2x Special Weapons Squad -3x Melta

Vendetta
Vendetta

2x Hydra
2x Hydra
Manticore

Still have ~10 pts to spend. This gives you a list that is capable of taking on anything you might see. 15 AV12 Hulls will certainly make Dark Eldar cry. The list puts out a great bit of fire power and has a blob squad to sit on home objectives along with 7 chimera squads that can rush the midfield. The special weapons squads steal the infantry squads chimera's and the infantry squad blobs up giving you 4 Autocannon shots a turn with some flamers to roast anything that gets close.

LValx wrote:Awful list, why take mixes of plasma and melta? It means your melta is far less reliable.

Try this

CCS - 4x Plasma, Chimera

4x Veteran Squads - 3x Melta and Chimera

PCS - 3x Melta, Chimera
2x Infantry Squads - Flamer, Autocannon, Chimera
2x Special Weapons Squad -3x Melta

Vendetta
Vendetta

2x Hydra
2x Hydra
Manticore

Still have ~10 pts to spend. This gives you a list that is capable of taking on anything you might see. 15 AV12 Hulls will certainly make Dark Eldar cry. The list puts out a great bit of fire power and has a blob squad to sit on home objectives along with 7 chimera squads that can rush the midfield. The special weapons squads steal the infantry squads chimera's and the infantry squad blobs up giving you 4 Autocannon shots a turn with some flamers to roast anything that gets close.

I like this list, and with the 10 points spare I'd personally spend it on a plasma pistol for the Comp Commander, 9 plasma shots at close range are really nice to have compared to 8 for me.

Cheers for the feedback but LValx your list is entirely different to mine rather than a modification and would require buying a lot more models. I am going to move the meltas into one squad and have the plasmas in the other two as well.

Let him have turn 1, but keep 99% of your force in reserve. He can't kill what isn't there.

I don't rate melta agaisnt DE. You don't need that extra die against their "armoured vehicles", and by the time you're in range to use it it's far too late.

In that list I don't like the SWS. 6 t3 wounds with a 5+ save? thats a free pain token. 2 in fact.

The biggest threat DE have against us Guard players isn't any specific unit... it's Night Shields. It forces us to close the distance, negating our superior firepower and range... One reason why I suggest a Basilisk or two. Not only is it a high strength pie plate, but at a range of stupid it's not going to be affected by those dastardly shields. Give them a hvy flamer and all of a sudden you've got your rear covered too.

HQ
CCS - 4GL, chimera, PW, PP, MB

Troop
Vets - Harker, HB, 3 GL, Chimera
2x Vets - 3GL, AC, chimera
Vets - 3 snipers, AC, chimera

Fast Attack
Scout sentinel w/ML

Hvy Support
2x Hydra's
2x Basilisks w/hvy flamer

I was trying to get a an All-Comers list that was especially good against DE, thats why I kept the Melta.

If you're using meltaguns, then you want to put them in a strong counter cc unit, and not even.bother vs wyches. Fine v warriors, take down.their transport, whether a turn of shooting and get into cc with them.

However wyches will chew you up if you get close enough to use it.

The things with the bigger armour that melta will be most effective against will be kept.out of.range throughout the.game, you'd be better with longer range weaponry for extra turns of shooting, otherwise that guns just null and void.

papathrax wrote:I don't rate melta agaisnt DE. You don't need that extra die against their "armoured vehicles", and by the time you're in range to use it it's far too late.

In that list I don't like the SWS. 6 t3 wounds with a 5+ save? thats a free pain token. 2 in fact.

The biggest threat DE have against us Guard players isn't any specific unit... it's Night Shields. It forces us to close the distance, negating our superior firepower and range... One reason why I suggest a Basilisk or two. Not only is it a high strength pie plate, but at a range of stupid it's not going to be affected by those dastardly shields. Give them a hvy flamer and all of a sudden you've got your rear covered too.

HQ
CCS - 4GL, chimera, PW, PP, MB

Troop
Vets - Harker, HB, 3 GL, Chimera
2x Vets - 3GL, AC, chimera
Vets - 3 snipers, AC, chimera

Fast Attack
Scout sentinel w/ML

Hvy Support
2x Hydra's
2x Basilisks w/hvy flamer

Night Shields are crap, which is why most DE players dont take them. Most weapons that truly scare DE are 48" range so even with shields DE are still generally outranged. Pointless to make each transport more costly. And melta is good vs almost any army because it ensures a blown up vehicle.

I disagree, I do take ns as well as ff. Mandrakes too; my drakes infiltrate and take out / tie up big guns, my raiders then get within range to allow the on board warriors to shoot enemy troops that have a danger range of 24", or 18" thanks to the.ns. then I just keep moving back 6" to ensure they're out of range each turn. Not an easy tactic to work as you have to be mindful of everything on the table incase you cross into someone else's firing arc, though I've found it to be a valuable tactic that can frustrate the hell out of my opponent's!

kitch102 wrote:I disagree, I do take ns as well as ff. Mandrakes too; my drakes infiltrate and take out / tie up big guns, my raiders then get within range to allow the on board warriors to shoot enemy troops that have a danger range of 24", or 18" thanks to the.ns. then I just keep moving back 6" to ensure they're out of range each turn. Not an easy tactic to work as you have to be mindful of everything on the table incase you cross into someone else's firing arc, though I've found it to be a valuable tactic that can frustrate the hell out of my opponent's!

When you win something worthwhile then I will consider NS and Mandrakes as viable. Otherwise they aren't. I've played against DE ~5-8 times this year in tournies and not a single person ran Night Shields. Sorry but they needn't be accounted for.

You'll have to explain to me why taking something that prevents you being shot at is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why take the attitude that just because its an .uncommon.build its not worth taking? Be unpredictable, do things no one else.does, and watch your opponent quail in front.of something they've not thought about having to.face!

kitch102 wrote:You'll have to explain to me why taking something that prevents you being shot at is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why take the attitude that just because its an .uncommon.build its not worth taking? Be unpredictable, do things no one else.does, and watch your opponent quail in front.of something they've not thought about having to.face!

That isn't my attitude. Footdar is different and unpredictable. It works because it takes advantage of synergy and decent units. Nightshields do not save DE from their biggest fears. Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons. Hydras still eat your vehicles alive. SW missile spam still outranges you. It bones melta, sure. But melta isnt needed to blow up DE vehicles because they are already opentopped. I could see the viability of NS on a raider that blitzes the opponent. But taking NS on things such as venoms and ravagers seems to me an inefficient waste of points. If you take 12 vehicles or so, which most competitive DE builds do, you will be spending over 100 extra points on nightshields. That is almost 2 Venoms paid for. So what would you rather have, a little extra survivability all around (only against certain armies, mind you) or extra vehicles? I'll take numbers my friend.

Imperial Guard counters dark eldar hard.

Get alot of things that shoot, and then roll a bunch of dice and kill the dark eldar army.

LValx wrote:

kitch102 wrote:You'll have to explain to me why taking something that prevents you being shot at is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why take the attitude that just because its an .uncommon.build its not worth taking? Be unpredictable, do things no one else.does, and watch your opponent quail in front.of something they've not thought about having to.face!

That isn't my attitude. Footdar is different and unpredictable. It works because it takes advantage of synergy and decent units. Nightshields do not save DE from their biggest fears. Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons. Hydras still eat your vehicles alive. SW missile spam still outranges you. It bones melta, sure. But melta isnt needed to blow up DE vehicles because they are already opentopped. I could see the viability of NS on a raider that blitzes the opponent. But taking NS on things such as venoms and ravagers seems to me an inefficient waste of points. If you take 12 vehicles or so, which most competitive DE builds do, you will be spending over 100 extra points on nightshields. That is almost 2 Venoms paid for. So what would you rather have, a little extra survivability all around (only against certain armies, mind you) or extra vehicles? I'll take numbers my friend.

Apologies if my comment came across as rude - I was in the cinema and trying to write a quick response!

Why would you advocate foot slogging dark eldar? Unless I misunderstand that point...? Sure, NS have no effect on 36" range+ weaponry, but then there's very little that can be done for that. My tactics for this would be:

- 'drakes enter play and tie up the long guns for turn 1
- raiders with ns, ff, splinter racks get to within 24" of troops (lasgun troops, bolter troops etc). The onboard DL fires on any nearby armour, the warriors take on the troops. They have rerolls to hit on splinter rifles, and the opposing bolters / lasguns can't shoot back as they're out of range
- venoms with wyches / archon + incubi etc blitz it to the big guns, unimpeded, and do their thing.

The 2 extra venoms are all well and good, you can take an extra splinter cannon on those too for a total of 24 poisoned shots per turn, however, you then need to put something in them that'll cost you another 60+ points (for, say 3 wyches per venom, and they won't do much by themselves when they get in combat). Seriously, I'd take the NS to refuse my opponent his targets. He may get 1 ML shot from a tac squad or whatever a guard squad would have, but then that's just 1 FF save I have to make, as opposed to 10.

Yes, I know, it's quite an idealistic tactic, though it works. Using this, I was able to wipe out Chaos Marines and a large Orc Boys squad in a double game recently.

Seriously, the tactic works, and NS / 'drakes are well worth consideration!

NS have no effect on 36"+ weaponry? the way I read it is it halves their range... so instead of 36" it's 18". Thats taking ML to within lucky bastad assault range just to take one shot at a raider.

When I use my DE, I take NS specifically to counter long range weapons. Put them on my Ravagers and Razorwings, sit them just inside 36", and then they can be in the open with great LOS and remain unharmed.

Sorry to disappoint pal, it reduces the weapon range by 6" only.

What I meant by "NS have no effect on 36"+ weaponry" was:

- A weapon with 36" range is reduced to 30", meaning the vehicle is 6" out of their range, though still able to fire DL's etc
- A weapon with over 36" range will mean that the vehicle is still in that vehicles range, if it chooses to fire its DL

kitch102 wrote:

LValx wrote:

kitch102 wrote:You'll have to explain to me why taking something that prevents you being shot at is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, why take the attitude that just because its an .uncommon.build its not worth taking? Be unpredictable, do things no one else.does, and watch your opponent quail in front.of something they've not thought about having to.face!

That isn't my attitude. Footdar is different and unpredictable. It works because it takes advantage of synergy and decent units. Nightshields do not save DE from their biggest fears. Autocannons, Missiles, Lascannons. Hydras still eat your vehicles alive. SW missile spam still outranges you. It bones melta, sure. But melta isnt needed to blow up DE vehicles because they are already opentopped. I could see the viability of NS on a raider that blitzes the opponent. But taking NS on things such as venoms and ravagers seems to me an inefficient waste of points. If you take 12 vehicles or so, which most competitive DE builds do, you will be spending over 100 extra points on nightshields. That is almost 2 Venoms paid for. So what would you rather have, a little extra survivability all around (only against certain armies, mind you) or extra vehicles? I'll take numbers my friend.

Apologies if my comment came across as rude - I was in the cinema and trying to write a quick response!

Why would you advocate foot slogging dark eldar? Unless I misunderstand that point...? Sure, NS have no effect on 36" range+ weaponry, but then there's very little that can be done for that. My tactics for this would be:

- 'drakes enter play and tie up the long guns for turn 1
- raiders with ns, ff, splinter racks get to within 24" of troops (lasgun troops, bolter troops etc). The onboard DL fires on any nearby armour, the warriors take on the troops. They have rerolls to hit on splinter rifles, and the opposing bolters / lasguns can't shoot back as they're out of range
- venoms with wyches / archon + incubi etc blitz it to the big guns, unimpeded, and do their thing.

The 2 extra venoms are all well and good, you can take an extra splinter cannon on those too for a total of 24 poisoned shots per turn, however, you then need to put something in them that'll cost you another 60+ points (for, say 3 wyches per venom, and they won't do much by themselves when they get in combat). Seriously, I'd take the NS to refuse my opponent his targets. He may get 1 ML shot from a tac squad or whatever a guard squad would have, but then that's just 1 FF save I have to make, as opposed to 10.

Yes, I know, it's quite an idealistic tactic, though it works. Using this, I was able to wipe out Chaos Marines and a large Orc Boys squad in a double game recently.

Seriously, the tactic works, and NS / 'drakes are well worth consideration!

I was saying that Footdar armies are something that is both different and effective. My point is that I do not necessarily advocate taking only what is considered good by the masses. However there is a correlation between what is good and how often they are taken. IMO, Mandrakes are totally and utterly worthless. I think that NS can sometimes be good but I think overall they do not save Dark Eldar from what they truly fear.

Fair enough, I guess we can just agree to disagree then really.

Though I do agree that 'drakes are a very niche choice, this doesn't make them useless though.

Anyway, apologies to the op that this went way ot

kitch102 wrote:Sorry to disappoint pal, it reduces the weapon range by 6" only.

What I meant by "NS have no effect on 36"+ weaponry" was:

- A weapon with 36" range is reduced to 30", meaning the vehicle is 6" out of their range, though still able to fire DL's etc
- A weapon with over 36" range will mean that the vehicle is still in that vehicles range, if it chooses to fire its DL

Ah... Turns out I can't read.

LValx wrote:When you win something worthwhile then I will consider NS and Mandrakes as viable. Otherwise they aren't.

lol, you're really going to ask him to commit the fallacy of argument from authority? Give me a break.

I've seen DE with flickerfields. I've seen DE with nightshields. I've seen DE move 18" to avoid meltaguns getting in range before. DE really do require long-range firepower to take down.

Thankfully, we're talking about guard here.

Agreed, NS do seem a minor issue to IG in the games I've played against DE so far. Autocannons still reach

Veritek83 wrote:

papathrax wrote:
If you have your heart set on Sentinels, drop the armoured and plasma gun bits, give them pretty much anything but a lascannon and outflank. If you take missile launchers, don't forget about the frag rockets! I did once... 3 shots into a squad of wyches for 1 dead. woopdefreakingdoo.

Second. My regular DE opponent likes to take a 20 man warrior squad to camp in his deployment zone and take pot shots with their darklances. Outflanking a HF Sentinel into them, roasting a few and then kicking their heads in assault while being functionally immune to his attacks back is tremendously satisfying.

I thought this was a pointless idea until I realised that he'd have to waste those dark lance shots to kill it. 35 points could be a worthy distraction for a turn. 3 of them would almost be guaranteed to reach.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because i'm the last post anyways...

LValxI wrote: was saying that Footdar armies are something that is both different and effective. My point is that I do not necessarily advocate taking only what is considered good by the masses. However there is a correlation between what is good and how often they are taken. IMO, Mandrakes are totally and utterly worthless. I think that NS can sometimes be good but I think overall they do not save Dark Eldar from what they truly fear.

For about a year, maybe 2, the only dark eldar models I owned were 200 warriors and 10 warp beasts. I am the footdar master. I still haven't gotten used to the having half sized squads but getting transports thing.