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Jihallah wrote:I had a game where a pair of dreads podded into my grill in turn 1. I blew one, and then...

EDIT: Seriously? First post on a new page? Jeez...

Lol. Even in death he's still serviced?

Anyways, the idea of opportunity is something that took me a longer than I'd care to admit time to wrap my head around. Was probably only made worse by the fact that I've been a guard player most of my 40k career.

I still don't see opportunity as something valuable enough to take harassment units (probably because I've so often swatted them away myself, but perhaps that's because they've always been used against me wrong...), but it's certainly valuable enough to make sure that a unit has a touch of versatility to it. Insurance is a good reason, but being able to say "gotcha", or preventing your opponent from allowing you to say it is as useful as it is subtle.

Ailaros wrote:
5/6ths of a wound is a lot better than 0 wounds, which the squad will be doing against a certain targets without one. As Ares notes, with vulkan you don't have the option of running away and shooting again if you wind up in close combat with a dread or a monstrous creature.

5/6ths of a wound is not a lot better than 0 wounds when it costs you 25pts per squad for the possibility for that opportunity. You are better allocating those points to something else and avoiding the situation. Will you always? No. But odds are that this situation will occur far less than the 25pts per squad that it costs.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, it's not just about a single instance of a 5/6th wound. It's that over possibly several turns on the one hand, and it's even bigger than that on the other. If your space marines are more competent in close combat, that means there are plenty of times where you will win or draw combat where otherwise you would have lost it (times in which you also wouldn't necessarily want to use combat tactics), that means fewer fearless saves, but it also affects how things work on the table.

This is a fallacy that most people think that pf's will do. Make your squad of tac marines better at cc. It doesn't. It doesn't even make the marginally better considering the point cost.

Ailaros wrote:If your marines are struggling somewhere, your opponent can ignore that part of the battle and focus on somewhere else. If your marines are bringing things to a draw, or, worse, slowly winning over time, your opponent might need to bring something else over to bail their own stuff out. With a fist, it might even change where they decide to attack in the first place. Plus, it also gives YOU options to charge in against things. The difference between that wraithlord being brought down to 1 wound by that tac squad's meltaguns and being brought down to 1 wound and then finished off by a powerfist immediately after and allowing the marines to consolidate somewhere favorable could be huge.

Really. A wraithlord? That always taken model in the ever present in increasing numbers eldar lists. You mean those wraithlords?

If your opponent is getting one of his units beaten in cc by a tac squad pf, then he has issues on why he is letting whatever unit getting into cc with a terrible cc unit to begin with.

Ailaros wrote:There's a lot a fist does outside of a single wound here and there, which makes it worth taking on any squad that you want to have any change against anything bigger than non-CC squads.

The only time a pf might make a difference is in case you get in a fight with another tac marine squad.

You have numerous tools at your disposal in a properly built vulkan list to deal with situations other than commiting your tac squads to close combat.

Yeah, those Wraithlords:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Reece-Robbinss-Eldar-15th-Seed-Adepticon-2012.pdf

EDIT: I'd also like to see how a Tac Squad with weaponry that has an optimal range of 12" stays out of combat. When it comes to troops, it's not a matter of if they get into combat, but when.

A Sergeant with a Power Fist threatens all vehicles short of a Monolith or a Land Raider. A Sergeant with a Chainsword does not.

That said, I play Templars, so I have no clue as to the effectiveness of Power Fists in the Vanilla Codex.

imweasel wrote:5/6ths of a wound is not a lot better than 0 wounds when it costs you 25pts per squad for the possibility for that opportunity. You are better allocating those points to something else and avoiding the situation.

But now your opponent can force you to avoid things. 25 points, in addition to other things, also gives you the ability to preserve the initiative, and even gain it.

imweasel wrote:This is a fallacy that most people think that pf's will do.

Which fallacy?

imweasel wrote:Make your squad of tac marines better at cc. It doesn't. It doesn't even make the marginally better considering the point cost.

What? A S8 weapon that ignores armor saves in a squad of S4 weapons that don't makes tac marines infinitely better in certain circumstances and much, much better in others. If you don't think a power fist makes a difference, let me know next time your opponent stormravens a dreadnought into one of your tac squads, or a flying dreadknight plows into your lines. In cases like these, it's the difference between your 200 point tac squad getting wiped or tarpitted, or said squad coming out victorious, that doesn't sound like "marginally better" to me.

If you can't think of ways to use an S8 powerfist, it's that you're lacking creativity, not that the weapon itself lacks competency.

It totally depends on how they are being used, the question is would that 100 points have bought you another unit to kill that dreadnaught, or a better unit to shoot that storm raven down, or even just more bodies on the table so those 4 200 point tac squads are now 5 160 point tac squads. That sort of thing, it is what you are giving up to get it that should be more important.

Personally I would rather spend 5 points on a melta bomb and risk it. Death or glory Autohits

azazel the cat wrote:

Jihallah wrote:I had a game where a pair of dreads podded into my grill in turn 1. I blew one, and then...

Ailaros wrote:Lol. Even in death he's still serviced?

I can't think of anything witty or amusing to add so I'm just going to laugh

imweasel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:There's a lot a fist does outside of a single wound here and there, which makes it worth taking on any squad that you want to have any change against anything bigger than non-CC squads.

The only time a pf might make a difference is in case you get in a fight with another tac marine squad.

? The way I see this is-
Chainsword sarge swings on terminators
does sweet all because T4, limited attacks and 2++
terminators belt back and fist a bunch of marines
Marines combat tactics the hell out of there and terminators get shot

Powerfist sarge swings same time terminators swing
actually might belt one of them, since he wounds on a 2+ and they have to take a 5++
terminators belt back and fist a bunch of marines
Marines combat tactics the hell out of there and terminators get shot, except there is 1-2 less terminators.

Now lets go even further- lets say the shooting in the first instance leaves a single terminator alive. That terminator will be available next turn (after passing a LD test) to charge and possibly tie up one of my squads since he's got a 2+, or fist one of my vehicles. If sarge had fist...

Fists make you better against any squad that has a good armor save and/or an invulnerable save. You're not going to grind them down in CC. You punch and run and shoot- you're playing vanilla marines, not SW/BA etc. Combat tactics after powerslapping someone, and shoot them down- that is how tac squads win CC.


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Leth wrote:It totally depends on how they are being used, the question is would that 100 points have bought you another unit to kill that dreadnaught, or a better unit to shoot that storm raven down, or even just more bodies on the table so those 4 200 point tac squads are now 5 160 point tac squads. That sort of thing, it is what you are giving up to get it that should be more important.

Personally I would rather spend 5 points on a melta bomb and risk it. Death or glory Autohits

100 points buys you a typhoon, that can sit back and pelt the enemy with missiles. So yes, another unit to kill that dread, a better unit for shooting storm ravens down etc. Meltabombs+power weap, or even just the meltabombs are very viable and I can understand why (the above is a good summary). Meltabombs don't hurt MC's etc etc though, so fists for me

Strictly speaking, yes, a PF makes a Tac squad better at combat. Slightly. Slightly better than 'bad' is still not worthwhile. Across the army, the fists will cost you a full fire support unit somewhere, just 'in case' someone gets stuck in. Being able to apply a couple more melta or missile shots may mean your tacticals never got into CC in the first place. There is some value in the power fist, but it's very much debatable if it's 25 points of value, especially since it comes into play only in a situation you would rather have never gotten into, and you've diminished your ability to prevent the situation by taking the fist.

GreyHamster wrote:the fists will cost you a full fire support unit somewhere, just 'in case' someone gets stuck in. Being able to apply a couple more melta or missile shots may mean your tacticals never got into CC in the first place.

Clearly you've never played against a dedicated CC army before. A couple of missile launchers will not stop your opponent from getting a power blob or slugga mob or land raider full of termies or DoA BA from getting into CC.

GreyHamster wrote:There is some value in the power fist, but it's very much debatable if it's 25 points of value

So, even if you persist in ignoring absolutely every other benefit to a power fist, this argument still doesnt' have legs. If your opponent drives a demolisher into your stuff and your meltaguns only manage to peel its paint, but the powerfist then kills it on the charge, you're looking at 180 points that your 25 point upgrade got. If your opponent throws a winged DP on your flank and the DP gets dropped by a fist where it would have still had a wound or two, then you have not only 1/2 or 1/4 the cost of the demon prince, while you also have to add the points cost of the marines that the DP DIDN'T kill the next turn on the charge.

A power fist may not be used every round of every game, but that doesn't mean it's not worth it in general, including when you're arbitrarily deciding to only look at points returns.

To inject some MathHammer into this discussion, let's look at the facet of the debate which considers a PF to be Dreadnought insurance.

A tactical sergeant with a fist will have 2 attacks at weapon skill 4 and strength 8. Against a WS4 and AV12 walker, his attack table breaks down as follows:

2.00 attacks × 50.00% chance to hit × 50.00% chance to penetrate = 0.50 rolls on the damage table.

Of these, a third are glances, and the rest penetrations. Multiplying this out on each table and adding back the misses and failures to damage brings us to the following damage averages:

Nothing: 1.50
Shaken: 0.14
Stunned: 0.08
Weapon Destroyed: 0.08
Immobiled: 0.08
Wrecked: 0.06
Explode: 0.06

If you're fighting a venerable dread that rerolls anything worse than a stunned result, this worsens to the following:

Nothing: 1.50
Shaken: 0.20
Stunned: 0.13
Weapon Destroyed: 0.05
Immobilized: 0.05
Wrecked: 0.04
Explodes: 0.04

Needless to say, a PF will probably not save your squad from a rampaging Dread. It will do somewhat better against most MCs, depending on toughness and invulnerable saves, but even there I wouldn't expect miracles. The PF is probably best used to kill off other MEQ and TEQ, especially ones with multiple wounds, FNP, or extra toughness.

As someone who uses Mathhammer extensively, this needs to be stressed:

As I've started to play more and more games, I've noticed that Mathhammer doesn't really become a factor due to the fact that the calculations reflect what we'd find over thousands of rolls. A game is a very small sample size, so the law of averages dictates that there will be rolls that go beyond or below the average.

Creeperman wrote:To inject some MathHammer into this discussion

If you're going to inject math, then inject it properly. Yes, the marines, on average, require three game turns to beat the dread, but tell me, exactly how long will it take the dread to wipe out the marines? The answer here is 4 - AFTER the dread has been killed. The marines with the fist win. The marines without much less so.

Because the other thing you forgot in your calculations is the fact that you've got 9 other brothers in the squad with krak grenades. Yes, only one or two of them are going to hit in any given turn, and yes, they can only glance, but if one of those glances is a weapon destroyed result and that DCCW goes away, that dreadnought has no hope in hell of winning that combat if there's a fist involved. Even keeping it stunned greatly reduces its chances.

Which is the other thing you're missing with the fist as well. Yes, you need to wreck the dread for it to count, but other results make it so that the dread does less damage to the tac squad which means that you've got more krak grenades, which means more damage in conjunction with the fist (much easier to glance to death, for example).

Taken in the context of combat tactics, you've got the chance to possibly wreck it with the chance to run away if you don't, rather than only hoping to run without being caught. In the context of vulkan, where you can't do this, then you better hope that your tac squad can do all of the damage with JUST krak grenades. Something I wouldn't hold out too highly, and it would be a shame if a 105 point dread beat up a 175 point tac squad just because they hadn't been a 200 point tac squad that could actually beat up that 105 point dread.

imweasel wrote:The only time a pf might make a difference is in case you get in a fight with another tac marine squad.

LOL I tried to explain to my wife why I laughed at this but obviously flubbed it.

Seriously, in the entire history of 40K has 2 Tac Squads with PF's ever met in battle on the field? I know I've never seen it.

Once or twice I've thought twice about running my Kanz into PF weilding Tac Squads but they always end up charging. Yeah, every Ork mob mandates a PK but the entire Ork Codex is setup as a PK deliverily system. PF's in Tac squads make me smile, they are a waste of points, however I've never played using a SM army.

BTW don't y'all get Str 6 grenades and the option for melta grenades? Seems like a better way to go about it.


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Ailaros wrote:

Creeperman wrote:To inject some MathHammer into this discussion

If you're going to inject math, then inject it properly. Yes, the marines, on average, require three game turns to beat the dread, but tell me, exactly how long will it take the dread to wipe out the marines? The answer here is 4 - AFTER the dread has been killed. The marines with the fist win. The marines without much less so.

Because the other thing you forgot in your calculations is the fact that you've got 9 other brothers in the squad with krak grenades. Yes, only one or two of them are going to hit in any given turn, and yes, they can only glance, but if one of those glances is a weapon destroyed result and that DCCW goes away, that dreadnought has no hope in hell of winning that combat if there's a fist involved. Even keeping it stunned greatly reduces its chances.

Which is the other thing you're missing with the fist as well. Yes, you need to wreck the dread for it to count, but other results make it so that the dread does less damage to the tac squad which means that you've got more krak grenades, which means more damage in conjunction with the fist (much easier to glance to death, for example).

Taken in the context of combat tactics, you've got the chance to possibly wreck it with the chance to run away if you don't, rather than only hoping to run without being caught. In the context of vulkan, where you can't do this, then you better hope that your tac squad can do all of the damage with JUST krak grenades. Something I wouldn't hold out too highly, and it would be a shame if a 105 point dread beat up a 175 point tac squad just because they hadn't been a 200 point tac squad that could actually beat up that 105 point dread.

You beat me to the Krak grenade point. Good post there Ailaros!

PipeAlley wrote:BTW don't y'all get Str 6 grenades and the option for melta grenades? Seems like a better way to go about it.

Yes, but it's a matter of timing. A tac squad with krak grenades and a power fist will kill the dread before the dread kills the tac squad. It's unlikely for this to be true for the squad with krak grenades alone.

Plus, krak grenades only work against vehicles, while a powerfist works against them as well as monstrous creatures and the large menagerie of beatstick HQs like abbadon, draigo and the like. If a 1-wound mephiston makes it into close combat with a tac squad with no fist - goodbye tac squad. With a fist, there's a decent chance that the squad will make it out with half the squad left. If that squad happens to be holding an objective...

krak grenades are very nifty, but they basically only work against vehicles that haven't moved at cruising speed, which generally means immobilized vehicles or parking lots. Power fists work against everything.

After extensive loss-related field testing, I have to concur with Ailaros on this one. I always go with the Powerfist, unless for some reason there is just no way for me to squeeze out the points. The fist seriously earns its biscuits, and I find its greatest asset doesn't even come in when facing vehicles or monstrous creatures. The ability to wound most Marine-equivalents on a 2+ is far superior to the normal 4+ that the sergeant would normally enjoy. I have found, time and again, that those extra ten points save my bacon, and I always recommend the upgrade from Power Weapon to Powerfist.

Honestly I prefer powerfists. They are good with monstrous creatures and insta killing things, though it does sacrifice initiative. Power swords are good also but if I have an option to take power swords and power fists I usually take one power fist Thats my outlook on it.

The krak grenade thing reminds me of that one time I charged an armored sentinel into a space marine squad that didn't have a power fist. One attack per person with 6 to hit, 6 to glance, 5+ to get something useful on the damage table makes a 1/108 chance. Even with a severe misapplication of the Chaplain's ability to reroll misses (he was new to space marines and it was my first game ever so neither of us knew it only works on the turn he charges) that combat lasted right to the end of the game. A fist would've had two attacks, 3+ to hit, 4 to glance, 5+ on a glance/3+ on penetrating to inflict meaningful damage.
2/3*(1/6*1/3+1/3*2/3)=18.5% per attack, 20 times better than a krak grenade attack even before considering the possibility of killing it outright, and the fist gets to attack twice. I still would've done it even if there were a fist there but then he would've had a decent chance at getting out of it before the game ended.

Powerfist all the way.

Jumpin Jesus wrote:They are good with monstrous creatures and insta killing things...

Which I'd even forgotten about. There are a lot of CC beatsticks out there, and not all of them have eternal warrior. Your sergeant is always attacking after kharn anyways. A chainsword just makes him angrier (if that's even possible), while the powerfist stands a pretty decent chance of one-shotting him. In the case of kharn it's a matter of if you lose 5 marines to him, or your whole squad.

Raxmei wrote:The krak grenade thing reminds me of that one time I charged an armored sentinel into a space marine squad that didn't have a power fist... that combat lasted right to the end of the game.

And this, of course. Most tarpit units won't care too much about the fist, but there are a few that will.

Ailaros wrote:

Creeperman wrote:To inject some MathHammer into this discussion

If you're going to inject math, then inject it properly. Yes, the marines, on average, require three game turns to beat the dread, but tell me, exactly how long will it take the dread to wipe out the marines? The answer here is 4 - AFTER the dread has been killed. The marines with the fist win. The marines without much less so.

Please show your math and assumptions for a PF killing a dreadnought in three turns. Even accepting that number, however, three game turns to kill off the dread means it is now sometime in turn 4 or 5, and those marines have effectively missed half a game of shooting - the only place a tac squad is really useful. Never mind the likelihood of a dedicated CC unit swooping in to that tarpit sometime before the dread dies and cleaning out the tac squad on the charge.

Ailaros wrote:Because the other thing you forgot in your calculations is the fact that you've got 9 other brothers in the squad with krak grenades. Yes, only one or two of them are going to hit in any given turn, and yes, they can only glance, but if one of those glances is a weapon destroyed result and that DCCW goes away, that dreadnought has no hope in hell of winning that combat if there's a fist involved. Even keeping it stunned greatly reduces its chances.

Krak grenades are barely worth mentioning in this context, but if you insist let's look at the numbers. 9 guys with one S6 attack comes up to 0.25 damage rolls (16.67% chance to hit × 16.67% chance to glance × 9 attempts) of which you get 0.13 shakes and 0.04 each of stuns, weapon hits, and immobilizes. Sure, you might as well roll the dice, but you'd better not be counting on those grenades to save your bacon. Of course, if you're fighting a venerable or an ironclad, it's even worse.

I also note your implicit assumptions that no casualties or combat squadding have occurred, which skews the numbers even more. In the turn it charges, that dread is overwhelming likely to roast at least one marine with a heavy flamer or multi-melta shot. Even discounting casualties, a 5-man combat squad dies awfully quickly to any kind of walker, and even if it successfully gets out is often too short of bullet-catchers to usefully survive the next round of shooting, if it even still has any special weapons left.

Ailaros wrote:Which is the other thing you're missing with the fist as well. Yes, you need to wreck the dread for it to count, but other results make it so that the dread does less damage to the tac squad which means that you've got more krak grenades, which means more damage in conjunction with the fist (much easier to glance to death, for example).

Does that dread have extra armor (and it should)? If so, then stuns don't bother it at all. Even if not, stuns and immobilized are bad, yes, but they're hardly a grenade apocalypse. You're merely tripling the chance of any given damage result to 0.38 shakes, 0.13 stuns, and 0.25 weapon hits (as it is already immobilized) with 9 krak grenades. As for losing the DCCW, it certainly sucks, but S6 is still wounding your marines on a 2+, even if you do get your armor save. These are still hardly betting odds.

Ailaros wrote:Taken in the context of combat tactics, you've got the chance to possibly wreck it with the chance to run away if you don't, rather than only hoping to run without being caught. In the context of vulkan, where you can't do this, then you better hope that your tac squad can do all of the damage with JUST krak grenades. Something I wouldn't hold out too highly, and it would be a shame if a 105 point dread beat up a 175 point tac squad just because they hadn't been a 200 point tac squad that could actually beat up that 105 point dread.

In the context of combat tactics, understand that making low-percentage glance rolls on the damage table may be counterproductive to losing combat and being able to run away. If the dread stomps two of your guys flat (and eats their hats) while you put three shaken results on it from grenades and a fist, you technically "won" the combat, even though you accomplished nothing more than locking yourself into another turn of casualties. If you want to use CT to escape combat (and risk being escorted off the board), you should leave the fist at home and use your normal S4 CC attacks instead of the krak grenades to make sure you get the opportunity.

Creeperman wrote:Please show your math and assumptions for a PF killing a dreadnought in three turns.

I was using your number. 6 rounds of combat = 3 game turns.

Creeperman wrote:Even accepting that number, however, three game turns to kill off the dread means it is now sometime in turn 4 or 5, and those marines have effectively missed half a game of shooting

What if those marines are on an objective? The difference between a marine squad that did little but ended on an objective and a marine squad that was wiped out can easily be game changing.

Furthermore, if the dread beats your tac squad, your opponent gains a KP. If your tac squad beats the dread, you gain one.

Creeperman wrote:Never mind the likelihood of a dedicated CC unit swooping in to that tarpit sometime before the dread dies and cleaning out the tac squad on the charge.

If you're going to assume other units are on the board, so will I. My opponents may sweep in units to support the fight, but so can I.

Creeperman wrote:of which you get 0.13 shakes and 0.04 each of stuns, weapon hits, and immobilizes. Sure, you might as well roll the dice, but you'd better not be counting on those grenades to save your bacon. Of course, if you're fighting a venerable or an ironclad, it's even worse.

And without a fist, you've got no choice but to rely just on these grenades.

With 6 rounds of combat at a .04, you've got a quarter to have the krak grenades do something before its too late. Without a fist, it is very, very unlikely that its going to be enough (because, really, glancing it to death with just krak grenades before the squad is wiped?). With a fist, it's a quarter chance to get the weapon destroyed when the fist has immobilized it and ripped its other weapons off.

In either case, if you're going to say that krak grenades are futile, it really puts more weight to the argument that the fist is required.

Creeperman wrote:Even discounting casualties, a 5-man combat squad dies awfully quickly to any kind of walker, and even if it successfully gets out is often too short of bullet-catchers to usefully survive the next round of shooting, if it even still has any special weapons left.

Ditto for this. A squad without the fist dies, nearly every single time. With the fist, the squad likely survives, and, given wound allocation, with its sergeant and special weapons in tact. Is it that tough to kill 5 marines? Not particularly, but now you have something that your opponent has to focus their killing power (which, if it's the end of the game, there might not be very much left, much less left and in range) on your tac squad, whereas without they could just fix it and forget it with the dreadnought.

I mean, are you really saying there's no advantage to a squad surviving even an extra turn to having it wiped out? Furthermore, if you don't get what 5-man squads can do, you certainly haven't faced off against enough MSU spam yet.

Creeperman wrote:In the context of combat tactics, understand that making low-percentage glance rolls on the damage table may be counterproductive to losing combat and being able to run away.

It might be, yes. It might be that you straight-up kill the dread and don't need combat tactics.

In either case, without the fist, your ONLY option is to hope for some good casualties to your guys and then run and successfully break. With the fist, you have more options.

With vulkan, as addressed here, you don't have combat tactics, which makes the fist even that much more important.

Ailaros wrote:I was using your number. 6 rounds of combat = 3 game turns.

Still not sure where you're getting that. 6 × 0.06 × 2 (totalling wrecked and explodes results) = 0.67 average destroyed results, which is still not a slam-dunk. It would require 9 assault phases (4.5 game turns) to reach 1.00 average destroyed results. In that time, you may expect the dread to kill 7.50 marines (2 attacks × 50.00% hit × 83.33% wound × 9 phases) discounting charges, weapons fire, or any other damage results.

Ailaros wrote:What if those marines are on an objective? The difference between a marine squad that did little but ended on an objective and a marine squad that was wiped out can easily be game changing.

No argument that the last man standing can and has won games, but the easier way to accomplish that would be to combat squad and position yourself such that you can feed the dread five expendable guys, then either get wiped out or CT away in his assault phase leaving the dread staring down the barrels of three melta guns on your turn. Getting into a fistfight with the whole squad against a walker is asking to get the vast majority of them killed off.

Ailaros wrote:Ditto for this. A squad without the fist dies, nearly every single time. With the fist, the squad likely survives, and, given wound allocation, with its sergeant and special weapons in tact. Is it that tough to kill 5 marines? Not particularly, but now you have something that your opponent has to focus their killing power (which, if it's the end of the game, there might not be very much left, much less left and in range) on your tac squad, whereas without they could just fix it and forget it with the dreadnought.

I mean, are you really saying there's no advantage to a squad surviving even an extra turn to having it wiped out? Furthermore, if you don't get what 5-man squads can do, you certainly haven't faced off against enough MSU spam yet.

Either way, the five-man squad statistically gets mulched after six assault phases (again, discounting casualties or other damage). Marine MSU will lose in penny-packets unless they kill the dreads in shooting. Some assault is unavoidable, but you don't want to stay in it against dreads, which the fist prolongs. As far as Vulkan MSU is concerned, that list more than any other needs to keep its special weapons out of assault, which probably means sacrificing five red-shirts to a charge and hoping they all die quickly or fail morale and run like hell. Putting a fist in there and using kraks just increases the chance of inflicting enough shakes to draw combat and be stuck in for another turn without being able to melta the damned thing, which is about the only way that kind of list can reliably deal with walkers.

Creeperman wrote: Some assault is unavoidable

And this is it, really.

40k is a game where two players determine what happens, not just you. You can not guarantee that you will always face off against opponents that you wouldn't want a fist against. You can not guarantee that you will always be in situations where you can apply your preferred way of handling. You can not guarantee that your opponent will never take the initiative and "force" you to do things you'd rather not have to do.

Without the fist, you have to get things exactly your way, or your squads can easily be screwed by your opponent. With the fist, you limit your opponent's options, the total amount of damage he can do, and his ability to stop you from imposing your will on him as much.

Forget making its points back. Any upgrade that can make it so that your opponent can't just walk away with what he wanted to do, and to make it so that you're not stuck in just one way of doing things, and so have lots more options for doing things to your opponent is itself a very useful upgrade. Even if it doesn't kill a single model, if it screws up your opponent's plans and gives you a greater diversity and ability to execute your own plans, it's worth taking.

I mean, it's the same reason I spend 20 points to give my power blobs a pair of meltaguns, or the same reason anybody has ever taken a combi-weapon or a chainfist or a meltabomb or a heavy flamer, or a variety of weapons that aren't guaranteed to always kill their points back in every single game. Killing power is the most important thing in 40k, but it's not the only thing in 40k. Something that gives you both killing power AND other stuff sounds like a good idea to me.

Fists across the board isn't always the best option. I like to have a plasma squad sitting back a bit, and I wouldn't put a fist on the squad. The squad with the meltagun, yes, the squad with the flamer, potentially yes, but not the squad sitting back pumping plasma.