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Not like this discussion has been done before, but I gotta ask.

I'm making a fluff based Salamanders army and on my tactical squad sergeants I'm torn between giving them p/fists, p/swords or just a plain old chain sword.
The squad is kitted out with either meltagun or flamer and a MM.
What will/seems to work best on an up in your face marine squad?

Thunder Hammer! If only. I'd go power fist since you can't have a hammer.

Is the fist really necessary with the 1/2 melta weapons in the squad? I know it counts for cc, it's just the points that scare me a little with taking a fist.

Melta weapons won't do you any good if you have some killa kanz, a tervigon, a daemon prince or a dreadnought stomping all over your guys.

A-Hivemind wrote:Not like this discussion has been done before, but I gotta ask.

I'm making a fluff based Salamanders army and on my tactical squad sergeants I'm torn between giving them p/fists, p/swords or just a plain old chain sword.
The squad is kitted out with either meltagun or flamer and a MM.
What will/seems to work best on an up in your face marine squad?

What is the role of the squad?

Are you using them to camp objectives on your side, or to aggressively take objectives in the middle or far side of the board?

labmouse42 wrote:What is the role of the squad?

Are you using them to camp objectives on your side, or to aggressively take objectives in the middle or far side of the board?

I won't have a specific role for the squad. I guess they will be middle ground objective takers. The squad will have a MM in it and I'm still not too sure about whether or not to give them a flamer or a melta. I get that if I'm going to be up in the middle ground, I'm going to need to have a little flexibility.

Basically it depends. Normally you tailor your squads for their purpose. if it is a vehicle hunter then meltas and PF. If it is an infantry hunter then flamers and power swords.

Always go fist, you never know when you need the STR8 for something. Be prepared.

Bacms wrote:Basically it depends. Normally you tailor your squads for their purpose.

Since 2/3 of the missions are objective based missions you will need to have something that can objective camp on your side of the board. In that TAC squad (or scout squad) you can use a chainsword. If they are assaulted, you have bigger problems and a PF will not make any difference.

On the other hand, if your squads purpose is to move forward and take objectives, you want to have a PF so you can threaten tanks, MCs, and other targets. A PF also doubles the squads ability to effect targets in assault -- though assaulting with TAC squads is not usually the best idea

Since you will probably have Vulkan and no Combat Tactics, i believe the powerfists are essential.
With out him, better spend the points elsewere and buy more units

I only recommend only taking a combi weapon for sargeants that match the squad special weapon.

All the other upgrades are too expensive and tac marines suck in close combat.

labmouse42 wrote: A PF also doubles the squads ability to effect targets in assault -- though assaulting with TAC squads is not usually the best idea

So you are saying that the PF is a good thing to have on the sergeant as a back up item in case I need to get into cc or if I mess up and I'm stuck in cc?

imweasel wrote:I only recommend only taking a combi weapon for sargeants that match the squad special weapon.

All the other upgrades are too expensive and tac marines suck in close combat.

How come you say that I should only take a combi weapon of the same sort as the squad?

A powerfist is the difference between being competent in close combat and not. If you never want your marines to succeed (or at least, against nothing better than MSUs), then don't bother, but if you want that squad to have a chance against monstrous creatures or vehicles or terminators, or a lot of stuff, better pack the fist.

A-Hivemind wrote:

labmouse42 wrote: A PF also doubles the squads ability to effect targets in assault -- though assaulting with TAC squads is not usually the best idea

So you are saying that the PF is a good thing to have on the sergeant as a back up item in case I need to get into cc or if I mess up and I'm stuck in cc?

That's what I would say. Also keep in mind the deterring effect: if you have a PF, it will at least make your opponent think twice about sending that MC against the squad. He likely still will, but you don't ever want to let your opponent make any 'no-brainer' decisions. I really dislike any marine squad to be without a PF unless they are Long Fangs.

azazel the cat wrote: I really dislike any marine squad to be without a PF unless they are Long Fangs.

I don't understand why you don't like seeing every marine squad with out a PF?
If you're playing at 1500 points and you have 4 squads whether they be Devies, Assault or Tac marines, there's 100 points just in 4 small upgrades, for a chance that it will either be a small deterrent, a way to improve the cc abilities of a cc squad or be something that helps your squad out if they get into cc unintentionally. I just can't seem to work that out in my head.


I do appreciate all the comments so far. Keep em comming!

they are not 100% required, but i take them on all my squads.
Its 25 points to prevent your ~200 point squad from totaly dying in HtH against Walkers, MCs, and the like.
if you can fit them, do it.

In a Vulkan list, yes, do take PFs, because you're losing the best kept secret of Vanilla Marines: Combat Tactics. Once you get charged, you're stuck there, so might as well be able to do some damage back.

it depends what kind of tasks your squads are going to be doing. if you have squads that have heavy weapons dont take power weapons.. if they have flamers and multi guns then you should take a power sword at the least because chances are ur going to be assulted when you get that close.

a power fist is greatfor what other people mentioned like massive creatures but i would hope you have more than a tactical squad of maries to kill....

a really cool way to build your models is to magnetize their arms so you can choose between each battle if they should have a power sword, chain sword or power fist. and take a few different lists on the day. you can do the same with different types of special weapons. just youtube how to magnetize your models!

faheykeyes wrote:they are not 100% required, but i take them on all my squads.
Its 25 points to prevent your ~200 point squad from totaly dying in HtH against Walkers, MCs, and the like.
if you can fit them, do it.

I can see the viability of taking it against MCs and IC and all but against your typical walker (Dreadnaught) you still need to roll fairly high to pen and then roll on the damage chart.
But I suppose if you've blown off the DCCW with y the melta's in the rest of the squad, I can see how you could kill it with out loosing that much of a squad in the process.

AresX8 wrote:In a Vulkan list, yes, do take PFs, because you're losing the best kept secret of Vanilla Marines: Combat Tactics. Once you get charged, you're stuck there, so might as well be able to do some damage back.

I never thought of it that way before. Looking at the rule replacement rather than actual use.

A-Hivemind wrote:

How come you say that I should only take a combi weapon of the same sort as the squad?

Because mixing special weapons is usually a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AresX8 wrote:In a Vulkan list, yes, do take PFs, because you're losing the best kept secret of Vanilla Marines: Combat Tactics. Once you get charged, you're stuck there, so might as well be able to do some damage back.

Don't follow this advice. Simply adding a weapon that will generate (on average) 5/6's of a wound for 25 points to make a tac squad that is bad in cc even worse by making it more expensive is bad.

spaceXjam wrote:it depends what kind of tasks your squads are going to be doing. if you have squads that have heavy weapons dont take power weapons.. if they have flamers and multi guns then you should take a power sword at the least because chances are ur going to be assulted when you get that close.

a power fist is greatfor what other people mentioned like massive creatures but i would hope you have more than a tactical squad of maries to kill....

a really cool way to build your models is to magnetize their arms so you can choose between each battle if they should have a power sword, chain sword or power fist. and take a few different lists on the day. you can do the same with different types of special weapons. just youtube how to magnetize your models!

I will be magnetising my bigger minis eg Dread and tanks but the small ones are too fiddly and there would be too many parts that could be lost.

imweasel wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AresX8 wrote:In a Vulkan list, yes, do take PFs, because you're losing the best kept secret of Vanilla Marines: Combat Tactics. Once you get charged, you're stuck there, so might as well be able to do some damage back.

Don't follow this advice. Simply adding a weapon that will generate (on average) 5/6's of a wound for 25 points to make a tac squad that is bad in cc even worse by making it more expensive is bad.

What do you suggest he does then? He's playing a Vulkan list, he's out in the open and is guaranteed to be charged. What does he do then?

AresX8 wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AresX8 wrote:In a Vulkan list, yes, do take PFs, because you're losing the best kept secret of Vanilla Marines: Combat Tactics. Once you get charged, you're stuck there, so might as well be able to do some damage back.

Don't follow this advice. Simply adding a weapon that will generate (on average) 5/6's of a wound for 25 points to make a tac squad that is bad in cc even worse by making it more expensive is bad.

What do you suggest he does then? He's playing a Vulkan list, he's out in the open and is guaranteed to be charged. What does he do then?

Don't get into that situation?

If he's got a tactical squad out of its transport, in the open, getting charged by a unit that can mulch it in combat, he's done more than a couple of things wrong. A powerfist won't get him out of that situation.

If your going for fluffy, make some power hammers
Go for the style that xavier uses.

I gave my Salamander Sergeants Combi-flamers for some dual flamer madness!

Seconded. Model them with hammers for the fluffy goodness, but use power Fist rules so no one feels cheated.

imweasel wrote:Don't follow this advice. Simply adding a weapon that will generate (on average) 5/6's of a wound for 25 points to make a tac squad that is bad in cc even worse by making it more expensive is bad.

5/6ths of a wound is a lot better than 0 wounds, which the squad will be doing against a certain targets without one. As Ares notes, with vulkan you don't have the option of running away and shooting again if you wind up in close combat with a dread or a monstrous creature.

Plus, it's not just about a single instance of a 5/6th wound. It's that over possibly several turns on the one hand, and it's even bigger than that on the other. If your space marines are more competent in close combat, that means there are plenty of times where you will win or draw combat where otherwise you would have lost it (times in which you also wouldn't necessarily want to use combat tactics), that means fewer fearless saves, but it also affects how things work on the table.

If your marines are struggling somewhere, your opponent can ignore that part of the battle and focus on somewhere else. If your marines are bringing things to a draw, or, worse, slowly winning over time, your opponent might need to bring something else over to bail their own stuff out. With a fist, it might even change where they decide to attack in the first place. Plus, it also gives YOU options to charge in against things. The difference between that wraithlord being brought down to 1 wound by that tac squad's meltaguns and being brought down to 1 wound and then finished off by a powerfist immediately after and allowing the marines to consolidate somewhere favorable could be huge.

There's a lot a fist does outside of a single wound here and there, which makes it worth taking on any squad that you want to have any change against anything bigger than non-CC squads.

The powerfist is there for protection. If you get charged by various units you will just die, against others it will be a mild slaughter, a fist hits back to make it hard for the enemy.
It then is useful if any tanks get close.

Combimeltas are awesome, combiflamers with Vulkan is useful enough. combimelta+melta means you can point the squad to a tank and you will be fine.
Combiflamer+flamer will be pretty killy, you can direct to some infantry unit.
Mixed give confusing directions to the squad.

Always pistol and bolter, never pistol and chainsword, or even worse bolter and chainsword.

Anyway you want fist and combimelta

Ailaros wrote:

imweasel wrote:Don't follow this advice. Simply adding a weapon that will generate (on average) 5/6's of a wound for 25 points to make a tac squad that is bad in cc even worse by making it more expensive is bad.

5/6ths of a wound is a lot better than 0 wounds, which the squad will be doing against a certain targets without one. As Ares notes, with vulkan you don't have the option of running away and shooting again if you wind up in close combat with a dread or a monstrous creature.

Plus, it's not just about a single instance of a 5/6th wound. It's that over possibly several turns on the one hand, and it's even bigger than that on the other. If your space marines are more competent in close combat, that means there are plenty of times where you will win or draw combat where otherwise you would have lost it (times in which you also wouldn't necessarily want to use combat tactics), that means fewer fearless saves, but it also affects how things work on the table.

If your marines are struggling somewhere, your opponent can ignore that part of the battle and focus on somewhere else. If your marines are bringing things to a draw, or, worse, slowly winning over time, your opponent might need to bring something else over to bail their own stuff out. With a fist, it might even change where they decide to attack in the first place. Plus, it also gives YOU options to charge in against things. The difference between that wraithlord being brought down to 1 wound by that tac squad's meltaguns and being brought down to 1 wound and then finished off by a powerfist immediately after and allowing the marines to consolidate somewhere favorable could be huge.

There's a lot a fist does outside of a single wound here and there, which makes it worth taking on any squad that you want to have any change against anything bigger than non-CC squads.

This is the type of discussion I was looking for! From what I can see in this post and in previous posts, a PF is mainly a deterrent factor on the squads.

MFletch wrote:The powerfist is there for protection. If you get charged by various units you will just die, against others it will be a mild slaughter, a fist hits back to make it hard for the enemy.
It then is useful if any tanks get close.

Combimeltas are awesome, combiflamers with Vulkan is useful enough. combimelta+melta means you can point the squad to a tank and you will be fine.
Combiflamer+flamer will be pretty killy, you can direct to some infantry unit.
Mixed give confusing directions to the squad.

Always pistol and bolter, never pistol and chainsword, or even worse bolter and chainsword.

Anyway you want fist and combimelta

So you're saying don't mix the squads special weapons with heavy?
Cause I'm thinking of running a MM with all the tac squads to maximise Vulkans rules. Wouldn't a MM, a meltagun and a combi-melta be a bit over overkill? And if I ran a Flamer and combi-flamer, what would the heavy weapon be? Heavy bolter or nothing?

Jackal wrote:Go for the style that xavier uses.

Can I get a link please? I'm a little bit confused

Whilst there's the idea of deterring MC's and walkers, the fist can also help threaten walkers and MC's. I had a game where a pair of dreads podded into my grill in turn 1. I blew one, and then with the rest of my available AT I got a weapon destroy on the other dread with a meltagun tac squad that had a fist. So when I was choosing the weapon to blow off, I ran it through my head- I could blow his MM off, but he's going to charge tac squads or rhino's or one of my riflemen dreads... If I blow the MM, the dread was going to charge something, and it was going to hurt that something. If I took off the fist, the dread wouldn't be a threat because it would start pumping MM rounds into my local armor. But, the dread was sitting right near my backfield objective-
So I took the DCCW off and charged my tac squad into the dreadnought. My reasoning being, tied up in CC meant it wasn't going to be shooting. No DCCW means it was just slapping my squad twice with S6 slaps that i got armor saves on whilst I tried to fist it. Once my squad was out of CC they could grab the objective, I couldn't remember the average number of CC rounds it takes to fist a dread but I did remember it was most of the game, it was turn one so I was playing the odds that the dread was likely to die to the tac squad before the end of the game, which keeps my tacs out of shooting harm and a MM dreadnought thorn out of my side. The dread was fisted by turn 2, a stepped onto the objective and the squad shot their missile launcher all game.

Likewise, I've seen tac squads run into melee's to fist that last wound off an MC and turn the tide, and I've punched up many a tank after immobilizing it or just plain fluffing my meltagun rolls and charging in for the kill. The fist is mainly a deterrent, but it can also be used as a weapon of opportunity.