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Like the idea of the heavy weapons setting of the alarm.

Could you elaborate a little with the spotting distance idea, I like the sound of it but somehow I feel it may be a little too powerful.

Also I'm almost done with the alarm overhaul, I'll post it as a whole new set of rules in the first message so it's easy to find, I'll do same with the scenarios as well. Also keep an eye out as i'm beginning to work on the infiltrate and raid scenarios as well, might need a little help to make them work as stand alone scenarios though.

I think if the defender gets to move a brute squad then at some point during the movement they get to roll a spot check of 2d6x3" (same as night fighting) to spot bikes, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, vehicles, and other big things. If the big thing isn't in LOS then there is no need to roll. If the big thing is within the rolled range then it counts as spotted, so +1 alarm point and the brute squad functions normally.

I'm assuming that these missions are taking place somewhere that fighting could be happening close by. Otherwise it's a bit weird that any shooting doesn't automatically set off the alarm. Though heavy weapons are a bit more obvious, thus they could be automatic.

I just tested a 3rd sabotage game. I must say that I've been forgetting to apply a -1 armor save to brutes. I also have been moving brutes 6", not what the initial dice roll to control them was. I'll start doing both from game 4 onward.

I also assume the bomb is disguised or something. That would be why the defender doesn't automatically know it's there. I'd say the attacker must have a model escape off the board or else they count as a loss. If the defender kills all the attackers then they'll have time to do a thorough search of the area, finding the bomb, defusing, and winning the game. An attacker still alive could prevent them from doing that.

I'm taking notes of the games i'm doing so I can remember what happened. I don't want to fill the thread with small battle reports, but I think I should post them because they sometimes have problems or suggestions in there. That is up to you though.

Game 4 starting now...

Thats an interesting idea, once a brute squad becomes 'active' they have the option of activly looking for more attackers. That I like the sound of for sure.

Heavy weapons setting of the alarm automatically, that is definatley something i'm putting into V0.1.2 which I'll be posting probably after work tonight.

The bomb itself, considering is a nuke, i'd say no it's not disgused, the idea being to get in and out without being detected (or rather the alarm being raised)

Hold off on the armour save, i'm considering whether or not to leave them as stated in the codexs. My thinking on this if we go with SM for example, you can get more scout based brute sqauds than you would with basic SM. So it's a trade off to a point, more sqauds or sqauds that stay around a bit longer and slightly better at combat.

And please keep posting the reports it's interesting to see how they play out. if you feel that your going to be clogging up the thread you can PM them to me if you wish.

Thinking about it for stand alone purposes, yes if the attackers entire KT are killed then it's a failed mission.

During the next game I came to the conclusion that brutes should never disappear instantly, they should always do so at the end of the turn the alarm went off.

Sabotage game 3
DE kill team 200 (198)
3 reavers (1 heat lance)
10 kabalites (syb w p wep+ptl, cannon)

DE brutes
10 kabalite warriors
5 wyches
5 wyches

CSM kill team 200 (199)
8 chosen (1 champ w p wep, 1 h bolt, 2 plasgun)

CSM were Iron warriors, they were the attacker. Except for a heavy bolter on a building on the side, all of the attackers KT deployed in a corner opposite the defender's edge. Defender went 1st and for 2 turns the attacker got to move all the brutes. It looked like this would be a quick game until the defender got to move 1 of the wych squads closer. The Iron Warriors took a gamble when their champion got close to the objective instead lagging behind his team. When the defender got control of some wych brutes again this brought them in range of the champion, so they charged. Unluckily the champion died and 1 of the plasma gun chosen was still engaged. However because the majority of the Iron Warriors team was right there, the wych charge made it so most came within spot distance, plus they survived the cc, so the alarm was at 9 points. On the chaos turn they moved some guys within spotting distance of the kabalite warriors, setting off the alarm. I think the wych brutes killed the plasma gunner in cc, then were removed at the end of the turn.

However, the bomb carriers were at the building, so as long as they survived the defender's 1st real turn the Iron Warriors would win. The reavers came in 36", flying over the bomb carriers and killing 1 of them with their jetbike blades (or w/e). Chaos moved to open fire at the reavers, while also moving another guy to help with the bomb. The reavers were the only threat, because it would take the kabalites at least 2 turns to even get LOS to the bomb team. In shooting the plasma gun killed himself, leaving only 3 bolters and a heavy bolter on the chaos side. All reavers lived, so I thought the game was over. The bomb team ended up surviving 2 drive-bys and a heat lance. 1 chaos marine still in sight died to kabalite shooting, the heavy bolter survived tons of poisoned splinters.

On chaos turn the bomb was set. The heavy bolter marine ducked behind his building, being out of sight now and right near the table edge. The 2 who planted the bomb scattered for the nearest edges. They died to the reavers, but the heavy bolter made it out. So chaos had won.

This game would've been pointless to play out if the DE didn't have reavers. However, I don't think it has to do with the scenario but rather extreme luck with moving the brutes. If the chaos champion didn't get too close to the wyches the bomb could've been planted with the alarm points still at 0. The game does show though that KT's with no fast movement are pretty bad at stopping the bomb from being planted. In such a case they basically have to rely on the alarm going off early, not a good thing to rely on.

Maybe if the defender gets 2 table edges to come in on that might make it alot easier. Then again it could also mean that planting the bomb in such a crossfire becomes nearly impossible.

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Sabotage game 4
CSM kill team 200 (196)
7 plaguemarines (1 plasma, 1 flamer, 1 ch)

CSM brutes (not much else you can do with the plaguemarine theme)
3 plaguemarines
3 plaguemarines
4 plaguemarines

IG kill team 200
armored sentinel (camo net, autocannon)
vet sq (3 sniper, 1 launcher, sentries)

IG attacked and went first. They deploy 3 snipers on a landing pad in the corner. Missile team on high ground with cover on one of the 'neutral' edges, with the sentinel out of sight behind it. Sergeant and 4 lasgun vets deploy in the middle opposite defender's edge, with the bomb.

Snipers move to edge of land pad, taking cover behind it's raised shields. Sgt and 4 vets move the bomb closer to the target building. With a lucky roll next turn they could run and reach it, but with a very very unlucky roll the 2 brute squads of 3 could move 6" and possibly get within initiative range. Of course this ends up happening with 1 squad as the defender moves both 6". So 3 plaguemarines fire bolt pistols and charge into a lone guardsmen (barely unable to reach the other 4 veterans). The guardsman somehow survives 3 bolt pistol shots and 12 cc attacks. There are currently 5 alarm points.

IG turn, the 4 unengaged guardsmen leave their friend to fire on the other brute squad. Adding 4 alarm points for coming in range, plus another 4 for shooting. It didn't matter much because the sentinel and missile launcher were going to fire too. The engaged guardsman suffers a single wound from the 3 plaguemarines. Turn end, so brutes disappear. This is weird because if those 6 plaguemarines stayed they'd be able to decimate the guardsmen nearby and probably kill the rest of the army. Rules is rules.

So from the defender's edge the new plaguemarine squad is spread out and running. If IG roll even average they would get the bomb to the building, which is really weird because the alarm going off early was supposed to be a defender advantage. IG fail to reach the building. Plaguemarines run again, except 1 that fires on the missile team with no cover (doing nothing). Snipers and sentinel miss or do nothing, missile launcher kills the plaguemarine who shot at it. Sgt stays with the bomb team in case 1 somehow dies, they get the bomb into position.

The missile launcher survives a hideous amount of bolter fire. The plaguemarine with the nurgle equivalent of a flamer moves 6" and sprays acidic barf over the wall onto the sergeant and bomb planters. Game appears to be over, but 3 1's are rolled to wound. No other plaguemarines can target them, so bomb ends up being set on the IG turn. In celebration the sergeant charges the plague champion and dies. Snipers and sentinel do nothing. Missile launcher probably pops a gooey marine.

So the game could be easily won if the sentinel just leaves the board, but I decide to stay and see how much I could kill. Snipers finally kill 1 guy, everything else sucks. Besides easily blowing away the snipers, from then on the plaguemarines have the most hideous luck with their bolters. The sentinel and missile launcher sit there firing and no marine ever makes it to combat or ends up getting through the launcher's cover. IG have a total win.

Seeing this game helps me believe that fast units are not required, which is good. With such small forces luck and equipment play a major part in determining odds of winning.

--

Sabotage game 6
BA kill team 200 (195)
tac sq +5 (flamer, h plas, sgt w m bomb, p wep)

BA brutes 250 (238)
scout sq (shotguns)
scout sq (combat blades)
3 scouts (bolters)
2 scouts + sgt (bolters)

DE kill team 200
10 trueborn (dracon w p wep, 1 dark lance, 1 can, 1 shred, 1 blast, plas grens)

This time the objective building is the skyshield(?) landing pad, so it's alot harder to plant the bomb and stay out of sight. DE attack from opposite the defender's zone, and again the defender goes 1st. The scouts start to slowly move away from the objective. The DE sneak forward, giggling psychotically in the darkness. In a total psyk-out the scouts all of a sudden rush into the darkness and peer around for intruders. The DE sneak away to mostly back against their table edge. Al l seems quiet now, but they don't believe it. The scouts rush right at the DE hiding positions somehow revealing lots of DE with question marks above their heads. Being asses, they now normal acting scouts fire 10 shotgun blasts at the dracon, blowing her away.

DE retaliate in force, which sets off the alarm. Due to bad DE roll-playing and sneaky sneaky scout casualty removal, the shotgun sergeant survives the round, so no free pain token for anyone. The scouts scatter into the darkness as a BA tactical squad comes in on the other end of the board. 5 marines with bolters go around 1 side while the rest of the squad goes the other, this should catch the DE from both sides. The dark lance snipes the heavy plasma gun. The DE move the bomb into position, but one of the carriers is sniped out by a single bolter shell from a single marine.

Marines on the other side take up firing positions behind a ruined wall. The DE move more people to the bomb. The splinter cannon fires maniacally, catching a marine with a random headshot. The shredder and blaster move up to try and stall the 4 bolter marines, killing 1. The blaster gets his arm blown off, but he just laughs, he is already high for this fight. 2 marines move up to see a bomb planter, and they blow him apart. It's just not a lucky place to stand I guess.

On the other side the sergeant grits his teeth through the pain of multiple splinter hits, but endures. The flamer marine jumps the wall and roasts one of the DE trueborn shooting from cover. The sergeant then charges into the other and beheads it. The DE see that this bomb thing is not going to happen, they must try to kill all the marines.

Ditching the bomb, 2 DE blow away the sergeant and flamer. The splinter cannon kills another, leaving only 1 bolter marine alive on that side. The dark lance misses fires across the board to help the shredder and blaster, killing a guy. The blaster DE kills another marine. The shredder, the only one not high from pain, misses wildly at the last marine on that side, but charges up to him and kicks him in the nuts, killing him somehow. The one remaining marine moves to cover and rapid fires, doing nothing. The whole DE force turns on him and he explodes. DE get a total win.

I thought the DE would be at a disadvantage due to the target building's design. Who would've thought trueborn were more than a fair fight for marines.

--
I didn't want to do any more sabotages at this point, but I wanted to make sure the attacker doesn't win every game. So I decided to do 2 more. Same terrain.

Sabotage game 7
IG kill team 200
plat cmd (p wep+plaspis, h flamer)
2 inf sq (1 sniper, 1 gren launch, 2 autocannon)

IG brutes 250
vet sq
plat cmd sq
guard sq
guard sq
guard sq

BA kill team 200
6 vanguard veterans (jump packs)(1 sgt w glaive encarmine, 1 w m bombs)

BA attack and go 1st. They move closer, barely. Defender moves 2 brute squads closer. 3 vanguard charge 1 brute squad, 3 charge the other. They don't fire pistols first. They don't kill many guardsmen, but they do cause 1 unit to flee (successfully). Since both brute squads survived, the alarm points are now at 8. Should a fleeing brute squad coming within spot range of another brute unit add alarm points?

The defenders turn is a lame cc, but the brutes again don't flee. On the attackers turn they put the bomb guys against the building while the only free vanguard charges into the broken brute squad. This sets off the alarm, and the following hand to hand is uneventful. Now the IG come on the board, but either nothing has range or it can't shoot because it moved. Bomb is then planted and the IG have no chance of killing off all the vanguard before they get away. BA win.

I don't think what happened this game was normal, but it happens. IG should've taken something that could shoot the 1st turn.

--
Sabotage game 8
Same terrain.

IG kill team 200
3 ogryns
chimera (extra armor)

IG brutes 250
vet sq
plat cmd sq
guard sq
guard sq
guard sq

Tau kill team 200
4 stealth suits
8 fire warriors

Tau attack and go 1st. The attackers kind've deploy in a corner. The fire warriors move up their firing line, ready to shoot if the guard squad comes closer. The stealth suits fly to a setup a crossfire. The guardsmen start to wander away and the tau stay a distance behind them. But wait, someone forgot their lho sticks, so the guard squad starts to come back. The tau figured where they are is good enough, and open fire. This instantly sets off the alarm. The bomb carriers make a lucky run move to the objective.

This game the IG have something mobile that can shoot the bomb team down, but the chimera misses. That's pretty much the game. Tau win.

It seems pointless to have done these 2 extra games, but maybe something can be learned from it. I think part of the reason this brute defense failed again is because there were too few squads. Groups of 5 would've worked better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was sick of doing sabotage games, but seeing as the attackers won almost every time I'm thinking the scenario still has to be worked on. I'm going to randomize KT's again and do more games. However, this time i'm adding a major change. The defender's KT sets up within 6" of his board edge, they just never do anything until the alarm goes off. While they are sitting there they have the same detection range as brutes, and if an enemy attacks them or comes within spot distance the alarm goes off automatically. Because they never get moved by the defender in the early game, they don't get a spot chance to detect vehicles.

Just out of curiosity, are you applying the 3 universal special rules to any of the KT models? I'm thinking this might have a big impact at times.

Anyway still working on V0.1.2 atm, i'll get them up as soon as their done.

No I wasn't because I figured if neither side gets them it's still balanced. I'll start using those for the new tests.

The new rules you put up look fine, except;
I don't know if squads of 3-5 is a good idea. That forces all brute squads to be small, which makes it more likely the attacker will get surrounded and discovered. It's really a better size for brute units, so maybe the flaw is in the rule that the defender moves the unit on a tie. I think that on a tie the unit should perhaps not move at all (but still get spot checks for vehicles).

Lowering the alarm points to that low pretty much removes assaulting from the opening sequence. Combined with brute squads not disappearing (which wasn't realistic anyways) this pretty much forces the game to become stealth only. I don't think stealth should be the only option, but it's looking like the attacker can't win unless he spends an extra 3 points per model. Silencing a flamer or grenade launcher seems odd too.

I think we should add to the heavy weapon rule that any blast or template also sets off the alarm. Or say the rule for silencers is that it can only be applied to starting equipment. Or say can't be applied to blast/template weapons.

--
I'm going to remake my kill teams and do some more games, with all the rules as you have them now...

--
I don't know if this is working. DE vs IG took an hour just for the alarm to go off. IG have guns in their squads, yet they still have 70 models. There are so many brutes the attacker can't move. It's just a matter of sitting there and shooting them as they inevitably come to you. We'll see how it ends.

What about this for alarm points?
"All alarm points gained for a turn are added at the end of that turn. The following each add 1 alarm point;
-brutes are hit by a non-melee attack and survive until the end of the turn
-brutes are assaulted and survive until end of turn
-a brute unit comes within spot range of any # of enemy units for any reason
-a brute unit is wiped out within spot range of any friendly unit
-one of the defenders broken units moves within spot range of any friendly unit that turn
-each attacking or defending unit that fires an unsilenced weapon or uses anything requiring a blast or template
-each attacking unit that reaches the objective of a sabotage game

Any of the following set off the alarm automatically at the end of the turn;
-any unit (friend or foe) fires a non-silenced heavy weapon
-any of the defenders non-brute units are assaulted or attacked
-any of the defenders non-brute units end up within spot range of an enemy
-an attacker's vehicle is spotted by any of the defenders units (either by coming in spot range of anything or by a brute unit having LOS and being within 2d6x3" at the beginning of it's shooting phase)"

I think that with the above wording for the alarm we can keep all other things as is. Of course this has to be tested. Do you think this is a useable set of alarm guidelines?

The alarm points you've put down look pretty good to me, 0.1.3 will be coming pretty soon i think.

As for the lowering of the alarm points the attacker still has 7 counters to play with. 5 is when even with a roll of 1 the defender moves the squad, however it staying in place also sounds good, so i might increase this to 6. which at that point there would be no ties... I'm going to try the alarm counters at 6 and then 8 myself see how it is and have ties leave the squads in place... the more i think about it the more i like it.

Would you say scrap the +1 alarm when a vehicle moves more than 6"?

Also was playing around with army builder, it seems that IG aren't the only ones that would have a ridiculus amount of models on the table as brutes, so i'm thinking of coming up a seperate stat line for brutes and each defending player gets a set number organised into squads of probably 4, say maybe 20 brutes either in 4's or 5's, can not have a mix of squad sizes. What do you think?

I just forgot to put in the +1 alarm for vehicles moving over 6". It's good.

I think if you say each army's brutes are set squads then that is certainly easier, but I think it's too close to the 4th edition rules. Still not sure if that's bad or not.

In that game where DE had 14 and IG had 75+, the DE actually won, easily. So maybe the brutes just being 250 points of w/e they want to take is fine.

I'm going to test more at 6 and 8 alarm points, with ties not moving anything. I'll use the alarm points I wrote down, plus the over 6" vehicle thing. I hoped my alarm point rules gave some options for the attacker outside of sitting there mass firing at brutes who wander by. I also tried to make them intuitive, giving an alarm point in any situation where it makes sense the defender's side would get more suspicious.

---
edit
Here is the alarm conditions I put up earlier, but modified;

"All alarm points gained for a turn are added at the end of that turn. The following each add 1 alarm point;
-at the end of the attacker's turn roll a d6, on a 4+ an alarm point is added
-the device reaches the objective in a sabotage game

Any of the following set off the alarm automatically at the end of the turn;
-a brute unit moved by the defender comes within spot range of any enemy units
-a brute unit is attacked and survives until end of turn
-a brute unit is wiped out within spot range of any friendly unit
-any unit (friend or foe) fires an unsilenced weapon
-any of the defenders non-brute units are assaulted or attacked
-any of the attackers units end up within spot range of a defender's non-brute unit
-an attacker's vehicle or MC is spotted by any of the defenders units (either by coming in spot range of anything or by a brute unit having LOS and rolling the required distance as determined by night fighting (2d6x3")) at the beginning of it's shooting phase)"

Additional rules;
-heavy weapons, blasts, and templates cannot be silenced
-sniper weapons are always silence for free
-no one moves a brute unit on a tie
-whoever moves a brute unit can do so up to the number rolled on their dice in inches
-once the alarm reaches 6 points the defender may use all brute units as normal units
-once the alarm reaches 8 points the defender's kill team activates
-2 models must carry the device in a sabotage game, these models may only travel on foot and must stay in b2b contact, they can still run, but would obviously be limited by the speed of the slower model. If the model(s) carrying the device are killed then place a marker where they died. The marker represents the device until a friendly model picks it up again.


I still don't know how to solve the issue of the device being activated out of sight of the defender. Though if it's in sight then it's too easy to stop it. Out of sight the defender must rely on brutes or having a fast unit. In too many situations is the game either impossible for the attacker or too easy...

I'll test with the above changes. They are easy to remember at least. Perform perfectly or the alarm will go off.

While yes it would be much easier if all brutes were the same, but as you said it's too much like 4th ed and thats not what I'm after.

Lol, you went and edited your post as i was writting this... the dead body thing would be realistic but i feel too much will be going on to include it.

I'm liking some of the rules your pumping out, I'm also going to changing the deployment on a per scenario basis, so things may become easier/harder dependent on conditions. Mainish change will be the silencers, I'm taking this one straight from 4th ed 'Silencers cost 10pts for the whole team, restrictions apply on certain weapons'

I'm not too keen on the alarm being set off automatically with a few of the ones below, i'll certainly consider them, there is always margin for error.

In a sabotage scenario, i would hope that the bomb be represented by a 25mm base modeled appropriately (I'm in the course of building one myself) but yes the 2 models must stay in b2b contact with it at all times. I was thinking of making them unable to run or halving the distance rolled but we shall see.

I guess when i finish the scenario itself things may start to fall into place. The main thing is that these base rules must be compatible with the other 3 scenarios I'm planning to do. Assassination is being worked on as we speak the other 2 are Raid and Infiltrate. In my campaign the Infiltrate mission lead on to a Zone Mortalis battle, I love the Mortalis rules FW put out.

I guess atm the 'Device reaching the objective' would be a scenario based special rule, similar to the assassination where if the target is attacked in any way the alarm is raised immediately. I guess each scenario will have it's own set of special rules.

Best bit so far, got a gaming friend of mine coming for a few days next week... serious play testing. He's actually playing Orcs in the campaign, so i guess his input is needed as well.

Anyway need to get a new version of the sabotage scenario up...

I figure brutes must be told to look around for the enemy, and only once they are confirmed does the defender KT activate. Too many situations were coming up where anyone but a total moron would've alerted his allies in some way. I could understand hearing weapons fire adding alarm points instead of setting off the alarm, but very little else seems realistic to not.

Silencers 10 points per squad? I like that better. I'm still wondering if only basic weapons can be silenced, and whether it should be free.

I had to add in the 4+ per attacker turn alarm point to prevent the attacker from dragging the game out forever waiting for the perfect brute movement rolls.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I don't think device reaching the target has to set off the alarm. By that point the attacker either already won or lost.

Just had a thought... spotting range is only front facing, if the attacking KT moves behind a brute squad no alarm counter is added. All brutes MUST face the same direction.

In theory this should bring in more tactical movement.

Also if assaulted from behind the attackers KT hits ignore armour saves.

Just a thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmm yeah the 4+ thing would work in that case, consider it added.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10pts for the entire Kill Team on the silceners same as the old 4th ed rule. I was thinking after playing battlefield.. i run around with a silenced M60 or RPK 74 so in theory a heavy bolter could be silenced. Or atleast thats my method of thinking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
lol, you could imagine someone moving behind them, then the defender getting control of the squad and turning them round immediately setting off the alarm.

10 points for the whole KT is so miniscule I don't think it matters. 190 pt KT is almost the same as a 200. With brutes staying no one would ever want to purposefully set off the alarm, so silencers would be taken every game. If people want to not, then i guess suicide is their choice.

So facing is 180 degrees? I like the facing so you can run by brutes who aren't paying attention.

Yeah 180 front facing, then watch them scream when the brutes turn around.

we'll try the silencers as 10pts per squad, defender obviously doesn't get the option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vehicles cant take them either, forgot to add that bit.

So i'm still here. I've been testing games with the alarm system I've put up recently. Since then I haven't been able to win 1 game as attacker. I think what I said about 4+ to add an alarm point at the end of the attacker's turn should be a 5+. I've also starting doing the defender's brute turn as the defender nominates which unit the players will be rolling for 1 by 1, and each is moved before going on to the next.

I also want to change the "unit wiped out in within detection range sets off the alarm", and change it to "unit wiped out within initiative range." Then add the rule that the alarm always goes off at the end of the turn, but if the units which have been alerted are wiped out before then the alarm won't go off. This change basically means if the defender ends up setting off the alarm on their turn, it's likely that only 1 or 2 brute units will be attacking you, as compared to the whole army turning instantly. That would also give the attacker 1 more turn to maneuver before the defender's KT activates, so they won't end up facing 400 points at once. I suspect most defender KT's will have fast units in them, so stopping the device from activating doesn't get any harder.

For sabotage i'm putting the objective in the middle. Defender chooses a table edge and sets up his KT within 6", and his brutes anywhere except 6" from an edge. Attacker then deploys anywhere on the board within 6" of a table edge, not starting in intiative range of any enemies. 1 in 6 for defender to get the 1st turn.

What i'm seeing is that the attacker usually moves a bit, then waits for a good opportunity from the defender's brute movement. Defenders have the best chance by having brute squads trying to move together (dice willing), at least to be within initiative range. Once the end of turn alarm points start getting added games become the defender moving brute squads to seek out the attacker's KT. Though with few alarm points the defenders units don't always move reliably. Seeking out the attacker's KT seems fine as the brutes usually have reason to be suspicious, but too many brute squads make it impossible to take any out without setting off the alarm. The longer the attacker waits for a brute squad to isolate itself, the more likely the defender will have control of the units, which is why I set the end of turn thing to 5+. Many times have I seen the attacker cornered.

It's rare to see a close game of sabotage, it's usually 1 side win easily. The game is more of a KT vs brutes. I think the changes i've made will make it more balanced. I'm curious as to where you're at with ideas.

V0.2.0 rules are up, some sutble changes from what you put up. Have a read through if you havent already, I've tried to clarify a few things and put it in some form of order.

At the moment I haven't had chance to play with the V0.2.0 rules yet, been busy with work and such. Got my mate coming round tuesday thro wednesday so plenty of games shall be had. Altho we will also be going through the campaign rules themselves aswell but thats a different thing.

My mate plays orcs, so it could be interesting, have to wait an see.

It's still early days to a point, when i get chance I'll really work on the scenarios themselves.

Also thinking of changing the turn thingy, attacker always gets first turn. Would make sense to a point but theres always a chance... hmmm.

So you mean something like...

Should a friendly unit be wiped out within initiative range of another friendly the unit, that unit becomes alerted. Should the alerted unit survive to the end of the turn the alarm is raised.

???

Looking through V0.2.0 i haven't even included it in that version....

I think instead of adding alarm points alot of things should set units to "alerted" status, if they aren't wiped out by the end of that turn (player's turn) then the alarm goes off.

It just seems weird to me that if guns are being fired then it only adds alarm points and not sets off the alarm.

I also don't know if an assault should automatically add alarm points, that eliminates silent takedowns.

You should specifiy passive spotting range as only in the 180 degree arc.

You should also only let brutes active spot vs vehicles, spotting normal units would make the games very short.

I think we should put some thought into jump packs and terminators. I find terminators sneaking around to be weird, and jump packs aren't always silent, plus an airborn target is easier to spot. Maybe treat jump packs like vehicles, if over 6" it adds an alarm point?

Also what is the final rulings on allowing deep strike, reserves, and infiltrate?

Oh, and also, you mention brutes have to follow squad sizes as indicated in the codex. No more splitting them in 3-5's?

Correct on the squads, try them as codex unit sizes.

KT rules dont allow any units to be in reserve, everything must be on the table from the get go. although models with infiltrate still get to deploy further in than normal.

Hadn't really thought about terminators will have to think on that, but as for jump/jet packs i think that if they use the jump/jet pack in any manner not just minimum distance.

Active spotting on vehicles only, consider that altered.

Noted on the passive checks, i did miss putting that in.

The only issue i see with using alerted rather gathering points is that KT act as seperate units, a single SM isn't gonna do gak against a 10 man orc squad.
Could go with if any brute squad becomes alerted then the alarm roll at the end of the turn becomes a 4+ rather than 5+.

Silent takedowns are only possible if attacking from behind, I'm going to add that 'attackers hit automatically if striking from behind in addition to striking first and ignoring armour'.

I don't think they should hit automatically. You could end up with Tau taking out a terminator in h2h. It's tau.

I've noticed that you really have to concentrate fire to take out brute squads. I think having them bigger might make it impossible to take out some units. However, it's in the defenders best interests to have as many brute squads as possible, so I guess that's the gamble they take.

Oops, and active spotting is on vehicles and maybe monstrous.

I'll try this out again.

Ah yes montrous creatures.

remember brute squads can ONLY be troop choices so doubt ful thered be any termi brute squads.

GK's

My mistake on that one, but at 200 pts for a basic squad they wont have many squads.


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6 at most with them being 40 each


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single guys not squads that is

problem already... so a defender's units with infiltrate can start anywhere on the board?

following normal infiltrate rules in regards to LOS and such yes they should be able to, however each scenario will have specific deplyment rules and in sabotage the defenders KT cannot be deplyed more than 12" from the defenders edge... atleast for now thats how I'm having it.

Same goes for brute squads, they can only be deployed in a certain area... basically for brutes drop all special rules until they become active and to a point same for the defender's KT special rules dont apply until they are active.

Wonder how many pages we'll get to before someone else chimes in...

I also have this feeling that as soon as we get these rules right the 6th edition book will come out and have already improved KT.

I think what we have is pretty much good. You just have to decide on a few things or how stuff works;
-Can you run with the device?
-terminators
-jump packs/jet packs
-should tanks/walkers just be banned?
-doing something so that squad options still do something, such as medics (maybe a small radius or b2b instead), things like righteous fury and litanies of hate might apply to all friendlies who charge into the same combat

I also think you reconsider letting brutes split their fire, especially because that makes charging weird.

I recommend the following rules;
Weapons on a vehicle can fire at different targets.
Unique characters and upgrade characters which cost more than 50 points are not allowed.
I thought there was more, but I forgot...

I believe letting HQ's that are no more than 50 points should be allowed in KT. It gives more variety, making it feel more like a special unit. I don't think it's overpowered, especially when some armies can get dreadnoughts, special characters, and heroes as elites (BA blood chalices...). This is basically all that would be allowed (I'm not going thru every book);
big mek with 15 points of gear
unequipped haemonculus
enginseer with melta bombs
ministorum priest w no eviscerator
co. command squad with only lasguns or laspistols
sgt telion
inquisitors (also the only way to field henchmen)
ethereal w 2 cc weapons
herald of tzeentch, nurgle, or slaanesh w no upgrades

my necrons are outdated, so idk about them. Also, lol sob...

Rumor is in the UK at lease 6th is coming 23/6/12.... As normal GW aren't giving much away.

Don't ignore my last post.

Just to let you know, i've yet to win a game as attacker.

I should've realised this earlier, but letting the brute squads be legal squad sizes means you'll most likely have to face one, be unable to kill it, then automatically have the alarm go off, probably making you lose. I would say minimum squad sizes only, or go back to the 3-5.


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Also, how did your games go?

Ok so i got in 12 games (also 1 1k and 1 500point so was a good couple of days)..... but yikes if i see another 4x4 board in the next day or so i think ima gonna go nuts...

Anyway, brutes do indeed have to be minimum size... at least they do now after my games. Take Orcs for example... 240 points will net you 4 squads of 10, only at that point can you take a squad over minimum size. thinking about it squad leaders/segeants are removed from the equation and replaced with standard troops (which enables SM to take 3 squads).

So I had 6 sabotage and 4 assassination games and a little peek at the raid scenerio (which still needs a lot work), alternating between attacker & defender. Me i was playing as standard marine and my battle brother was playing orcs, so we had huge numbers and elite troopers Both myself and my battle brother feel the core rules work pretty well as they are, except we removed brute squad armour saves all together after the first couple of games, the squad heading played a huge part aswell (sternguard vets wiping out a 10 strong squad of orcs before they know what happened). This helped immensely when facing tough units, after all they are pretty much just guarding the area not on full alert.

So Sabotage, first 2 games were as stated in the rules... this didn't go well might of just been dice rolling in controlling of the brutes, but in the second set i overhauled the deployment for both defender and attacker, this worked wonders. The change that had the most impact was making the attacker 'ROLL' for which side they enter on, this stops the defender bunching up the brutes as they don't know where they'll be coming in from. The objective has moved bac to the center of the table equal distance from all 4 sides. So the table sides basically go moving clockwise... Defenders edge, D6 of 1-2, D6 of 3-4, D6 of 5-6. Also the defenders KT can only deploy in a triangle behind the objective, take the center point and dram a line to each corner of the defenders edge. Attacker deployment once rolled for is 6" on the table but not within 12" of the defender table edge. After we made these changes we had 3 very close games and 1 where my mates Orcs kicked my arse good and proper... not even setting off the alarm until the bomb got to the building and he still managed to get the half of his KT off the table... I say half because the rest got mauled by my KT... (landspeeder & 5 assault marines 12" move and fire).

Assassination went fairly well with some of the changes I've brought in, I know I havent't posted an updated scenario for either of these thinking about it, must do that soon. The deployment of this one needs a little bit of work, also the target movement having him stand still was a little too easy for me at least (i took 5 sniper scouts bang bang bang dead), thinking about giving him a 2 person bodyguard which gives him a permenant 5+ cover save. Unfortunately my mate had to go before we got chance to try it out like that.

In summary it seams that deplyment makes a huge difference in the scenarios so I'm going to focus on balancing them first then work on the scenario special rules themselves. But whatever is was bloody good fun and certainly made a change from mindless seek and destroy that KT usually is.

I like the defenders triangle deployment, it allows them to field a variety instead of only fast attack. However, it makes cc troops very dangerous and ultimately makes the game harder for the attacker.

Also you cheated, KT is only allowed 1 fast attack.

Ok, so I have no clue what i'm doing wrong. You said sternguard take out 10 orks, but my sternguard can't take out 10 kroot. I'm even having trouble with 6 fire warriors at times, which is just bad rolling. I've tried to do this BA vs Tau scenario 4 times now and the alarm keeps going off on round 2. It's all because the brute squad size is too big to be taken out in 1 turn.

You also said that the random attacker deployment helps, but I see it as the attacker losing a choice. In my games the brute squads are deploying near the objective and staying in close range of each other, which is what's making it hard. If I ever manage to take 1 out, another ends up close enough where they saw it.

Also, in my games the attacker going first is usually worthless, as there is never a brute squad that is an easy target. So the attacker ends up sitting and praying they roll good on the defenders move brute phase.

So I don't know what to do.

I also think the brutes getting no armor saves makes it unbalanced for high armor armies. I think it would be better off having a set # of brute units in set squad sizes, ala 4th edition.