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Well, if you are up against an army consisting of all AV 13 and AV 14, melta is pretty much the only thing that is going to reliably do any damage. But, go ahead and throw a worst case scenario out there and say it is pointless. So, in this case, you are absolutely correct, HK spam is pointless. But then again, so would most Missile launchers, plasma guns, heavy bolters, etc. So why take any wargear at all that cannot hurt AV 13 or AV 14?

I hope my sarcasm didn't come off to nasty there.

HK spam has a place in certain armies and it needs to be used against the proper targets. Finding a way to incorporate 5-8 first round, infinite range, str 8 shots is tricky. Throwing them all against a land raider or monlith would be a waste. Using them against rhinos and razorbacks that start the game out of range is a different story. Even if your opponent has no vehicles, shoot them at marines straight up. 16 points per marine vs. 10 points per missile is a good tradeoff. Obviously, that is not the ideal target, but it still works.

Against nids, that is one MC that is probably going to die in the 1st turn. How powerful is that?

Against orks, you can still use the str 4 blast weapon iirc, and kill a ton of boyz. Or, you can pop kans or dreads.

You can go on and on, but there are plenty of targets vulnerable to str 8 weapons that you can put a hurting on with this tactic.

The power of this stratagem is the saturation of fire in the first round. The next time you play a game with a vehicle heavy list that can include HKs, figure out how many shots that would be. Now, just roll the dice as if each vehicle had an extra shot and see what happens. Consider it mathhammer for dummies. I think you will be surprised at what it will do.

re: AV13 - you're looking to pop the Quantum Shielding (assuming you're talking about my Necrons here). Your result doesn't matter much, just need a "penetration". You can deal with AV11.

hmm.. a bit of a tangent. In general, ideal targets for these things are stuff like hovering Vendetta's. AV11 targets work, but you're not using your range then.

sometimes i field them en masse on chimeras, turn 1 i shoot them all at MEQ models, if i take 10 HKs thats only 100 points, which will kill on average 100 points of marines, significantly more of tau battlesuits and ork nobs, i have found that they dont make fill a decent anti-tank role as the 1 shot isnt reliable enough to hurt anything over AV 10...so instead i shoot them at stuff that if hit will most likely kill, hence MEQ

Well I like the basic concept, since it offers a nice punch up front.

Kinda rough sketch here for C:SM

HQ Captain relic blade 130
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Heavy Predator ac/las/hunterkiller 130
Heavy Predator ac/las/hunterkiller 130

1485

Captain is just there cause i don't like anything else. Could go MotF and drop preds for more MM/HF dreads.

thoughts? Basically giving up a Typhoon speeder to give everything a first turn ML shot.

Green, I assume you are talking about me.

Maybe I run a different BA list than others (Ya I do) but I will run 7-8 AV 13-14 vehicles, no AV 11. So your best chance is to get a side shot on my Preads. SO yes your PLasma and ML's are wasted on a large portion of my army.

Using Bugs as an example of how great they are is just as extreme as my example. Just in a different direction.

jbunny wrote:I don't use them, but I don't run many transports. This is more of a feel for me, but I don't think they do anything.

So for fun you next time you play find room for 3 or 4 of them and see if they do anything. The only way to find out whether or not they work for you is you have to use them in a list.

I use them as standard on my transports with SoB, helps out the exorcists a touch. The lack of any other long ranged anti-tank to soften up incoming vehicles kind of makes them more viable. Added with I haven't been bothered to swap over all the flamers to meltas so their punch is still useful.

Dracos wrote:Well I like the basic concept, since it offers a nice punch up front.

Kinda rough sketch here for C:SM

HQ Captain relic blade 130
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Elite Dread MM/heavy flamer/ hunter killer 125
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Troops Tactical x10 lascannon/plasmagun/hunterkiller/razorback 240
Heavy Predator ac/las/hunterkiller 130
Heavy Predator ac/las/hunterkiller 130

1485

Captain is just there cause i don't like anything else. Could go MotF and drop preds for more MM/HF dreads.

thoughts? Basically giving up a Typhoon speeder to give everything a first turn ML shot.

first, regular dreads cant take HKs, second all your troops and heavies are all 5 points short each, HKs are 10 point upgrades

I don't really like HK missiles all the much honestly, while they do have infinite range, you are not going to do much damage to anything besides transports, considering alot of tanks have front armor 12 or 13, which is what your going to shooting at if your are firing them on turn one.

Taking one or two on transports may be worth it though, as they can outflank the tank after dropping of its contents.

There is something to be said for a guard list that gets like 9 extra shots first turn cause everything has a HKM

Randall Turner wrote:One of the elements that's often ignored on these one-shot weapons is force-over-time. Ignoring range and other AFV weapon systems, three HK missiles does NOT equal one ML over three turns, the HK's are better b/c their effect is (or can be) immediate. For illustration, if you have a 1/3 chance of killing your target, the three MK's will take him out in the first turn and avoid his potential return fire. Tons of other factors, but that's an often missed positive one.

Underrated Post, if ya'll want more details of his analysis check out one of RT's Tachyon Arrow posts.

Its difficult to quantify in a point for point format (I've been playing with an idea that calculates the average attrition rate of a given unit, say if a Land Raider survives and average of 3 to 4 turns versus a Rhino surviving an average of 1 or 2), but suffice it to say that while we are often inclined to quantify offensive prowess in terms of average kill-able point value, what our vacuum excerices often leave out is that a dead unit turn one is much more valuable (to the attacker) then a dead unit turn 5. I think this contributes to a slight over valuing of melta for instance, although only slightly, as melta just leaps in offensive propensity once in range, but if you're comparing a MM to a plasma cannon for instance, one must keep in mind that not only is the PC going to get off about one more shot (on average, depending on speed of shooter and deployment of course), but also potentially kill something turn one, thus nullifying its retaliatory shots, where the MM isn't going to get around to it til at least turn 2.

Although I've never actually put one together in the physical realm, many of my paper BA Land Raider spam armies liberally employ HKs. The thought has always been to stand still and send them (along with the lazzies) out at AV14 threats to neutralize or at least severally limit any hard counters. I could see the same mentality with a Razor Spam army, not staying still the whole game of course, just a one turn stand still alpha strike before moving everything into position.

I don't use them, but I often find a lot of my guns are only 1-shot anyway.
Some units either don't get a clear shot for most turns, or they get blown up early on.
So, a 1-shot option is not the issue. It's whether there's likely to be a good use for it.