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I have 3 LRs and a rhino (and varients that use the rhino chasis). I was wondering if spending 40 pts on 4 hunterkiller missles is a good tactic. I was wondering if 4 first turn HK missles with infinite range, would maybe do enough damage to pay out? Would the possibility of popping some speeders or an other armor across the board be worth it? What do you think? I am not sure there is a right answer here, but if you guys have another option or if you support this, feel free to voice your oppinion!

Thanks in advance.

-Ryan

I use them all the time I only field 3 of them but more than once I have gotten my points back for them.

I think their usefulness depends on list size.

In smaller games around 500/750 points, they tend to take up points that would better be spent on more boots on the ground, especially with Marines. In larger games, surely around 1500+, I can see their potential, especially since you often can buy all you require for your strategy at that point level and have some points left.

They are better with the Marines than with the Guard, of course, them being BS4 instead of BS3, which makes all the difference in a one-shot weapon.

Huge waste of points honestly. Only time id take HK's is if I literally have no other models that will help my list. 10 pts per racks up quickly; id rather buy more special weps in squads, get EA on a few rhinos, or something else. A typical marine list should have no issue having enough AT without resorting to HKs

I've never fielded them. They seem expensive for a one shot. Are your LRs basic or redeemers/crusaders? Because if you are already shooting 2xTLLC at something, do you need the extra missile? On the other hand, you do have POTMS so you could use the missile to help insure popping 2 targets first turn. HK are expensive, and generally my rhinos are either in motion or dead. No time to sit still and pop off a missile. My tanks that are sitting still generally have plenty of guns. I subscribe to the minimalist theory of wargear. I'd rather have more boots on the ground then a smaller number with all the whistles and bells.

I guess that's where I differ from a lot of people. I use my Rhinos for more than "can with tracks". They are an important part of laying down a supportive fire base. I run 3 of them decked out with my BSS having 2 Storm bolters from inside also.

Each vehicle gives me 8 dice worth of shooting a turn and the HK's compliments my Alpha strike allowing me to pick three more possible targets out on turn 1. If the Dice go well I have ability take out 9 vehicles turn 1.

The common thought is that they over costed. I use combi-weapons also this is no more than a combi-weapon for my rhino... that can hit something anywhere on the board...

Yeah i would take them in larger games, but dont expect them to do much. I would be happy if it blew up a transport and made them footsloog

Imo too expensive for 1 shot. You still have to hit, to penetrate and roll something usefull on damage table.

Actually, the comparison to infantry combi-weapons is interesting - those seem to be used rather often. Granted, a combi-melta hit usually does more damage than a HK missile or a flamer might give you that extra anti-horde bonus - but still, the concept is no different, with the difference that *any* HK missile can be used at *any* distance if there is LOS.

That's something other combi-weapons can't do. And it's still S8 AP3!

My dreadnaught list uses hunter killers on the ironclads since they can have two a piece. Its one of those upgrades I see as more "hilarious and fun to use" rather than "pratical and strange".

Spidey0804 wrote:I guess that's where I differ from a lot of people. I use my Rhinos for more than "can with tracks". They are an important part of laying down a supportive fire base. I run 3 of them decked out with my BSS having 2 Storm bolters from inside also.

Each vehicle gives me 8 dice worth of shooting a turn and the HK's compliments my Alpha strike allowing me to pick three more possible targets out on turn 1. If the Dice go well I have ability take out 9 vehicles turn 1.

The common thought is that they over costed. I use combi-weapons also this is no more than a combi-weapon for my rhino... that can hit something anywhere on the board...

Interesting thoughts. Another thing to consider is army type: not all HKs are equal. Someone pointed out BS 3 guard ones. SoB only have exorcists for long range anti-tank, and you might not be fielding them. HKs would be more appealing to someone who can't spam MLs in all his units. BA might get more use out of them with fast vehicles.

I'll pay for a suicide MM speeder, which might only get one shot off. Why won't I pay an equivalent number of points to slap HKs on everything I have with treads? Food for thought.

Now I only use 3 of them, and yes my HKs are BS 4 so they are better than guard ones.

I feel that even if I shot it at an MC and he takes a wound they were worth it. doubling out a Wraith is worth it also. Sometimes 1 HK can pay for all 3 that I use.

Would I use more than that? I dont think so. My BSS squads need their Rhinos so most of the time I deck them out to avoid them being glanced to death. Like you said for most armies they really aren't PNTs efficient but for the synergy of the list I run they give me some reach out and touch you threat.

I take em on my rhinos along with the extra storm bolter as a another possible weapon destroyed to be eaten... plates keep it rolling. I liek the redundancy and when I do get to the drop off point I can (assuming it is still there) usually get side armor on something, sometimes I can even get lucky as a blood angels player having fast rhinos and get there before my opponent, drop off my assault troops turn around and get rear armor on something that was slower

Very strange thought process coming up here. I have run HKs before with mixed results.

When they hit and kill something, they are a brilliant use of wargear. When they miss and do nothing, they are overcosted and worthless.

More interesting though, is the combi-weapon analogy. This is the same amount of points for the same gamble on dice (i.e. one shot - hit or miss and live with it). Whereas combi weapons need to get close, this is infinite range.

As in anything in 40k, redundancy is critical. I see this tactic being more effective in a list with several vehicles and each one taking an HK. This becomes even more effective if you plan to run a static shooty list (razorback spam, MotF 6 dread list, etc).

Lets just use 6 as the number of vehicles as it is a common number. 60 points for 6 1 shot infinite range missile shots. I am guessing the initial reaction for most is "OVERCOSTED! Waste of points, etc." But, what does 60 points by you? 2/3 of a landspeeder that gets 2 shots per turn? So, you need to keep it alive for 3 turns before you get a somewhat of a comparable return for investment back. Dev squad? Nope. It almost buys you the marines, let alone their missiles. What about one dreadnought with a missile launcher? You need to double the point value, hope the game goes to 6 turns, AND have the dreadnought survive the whole game to get the same number of shots back (yes, I know it has another gun, cc, etc.- just bear with me).

So, really, is this HK a waste of points? I am not so sure.

Now, looking at it from a general's perspective as opposed to an accountant's one (cost), I think the HK becomes more useful in mass numbers. The infinite range of this weapon is what makes it scary. Now, with an army that's purpose is to close with the enemy and engage up close, this tactic is indeed a waste of points. However, put this into a list full of predators, dreads, razorbacks (or rhinos with a heavy weapon inside), and LRs and it becomes even more versatile. That is just a ton of long range firepower that can be gamechanging on turn 1. The whole point of this game is to create situational mismatches so you can kill as much of the enemy while reducing the casualties you receive. So would it not be better to have an overwhelming amount of firepower on turn 1 (that does not have to be used on the 1st turn) over a steady trickle of the same amount of firepower spread out over 5 turns?

I feel like I am bouncing all over the map trying to explain this, but I do think the HK needs to get more love and respect than it currently does on today's internets.

I think you're making a good point there. The ability to deliver a whole game's firepower from a ML dreadnought or 3 turns of fire from a Typhoon in one single round without having to consider range to target...it definitely seems useful to me now. Another thing to consider: If the enemy gets first turn and kills of 1 or 2 vehicles with HK missiles, there are still 5 or 6 left. If he had shot at an AV10 Typhoon and wrecked it or destroyed the launcher, all 6 shots would be gone. So, counting 6 HK missiles as one "weapon system" placed on different units, it's also kinda durable.

One of the elements that's often ignored on these one-shot weapons is force-over-time. Ignoring range and other AFV weapon systems, three HK missiles does NOT equal one ML over three turns, the HK's are better b/c their effect is (or can be) immediate. For illustration, if you have a 1/3 chance of killing your target, the three MK's will take him out in the first turn and avoid his potential return fire. Tons of other factors, but that's an often missed positive one.

I have been using them a lot over that past couple months and they have paid off more than they haven't. I just hope the ideology that, they are not worth there points, holds true for a lot more of the competitive players and they dont take them. LOL

I think that a shooting heavy list might be able to make good use of them. Their cost is such that they certainly are not an auto-take, but I can kinda see how they can add an impressive amount of power to your first turn of shooting.

I'd say its at least worth trying, given an army build that supports this idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randall Turner wrote:One of the elements that's often ignored on these one-shot weapons is force-over-time. Ignoring range and other AFV weapon systems, three HK missiles does NOT equal one ML over three turns, the HK's are better b/c their effect is (or can be) immediate. For illustration, if you have a 1/3 chance of killing your target, the three MK's will take him out in the first turn and avoid his potential return fire. Tons of other factors, but that's an often missed positive one.

This is part of why I like them in theory. Just have never bothered to design an army where this concept can come into play.

I like hunter killers, but usually spare points dictate I get something else instead.

Hunter killers are good because they give you more alpha strike power, and turns 1 and 2 is really when long-range weapons are in their element. As such, spending fewer points for something that is losing the ability to shoot, but in less useful turns, while making the unit better at its primary goal is a good thing.

The problem is that if you've got 40 points to spend on HK missiles, it's likely that those points can be better spent on primary weapon upgrades for other units rather than secondary upgrades for your tanks. Passing out 4 meltaguns to units that have no anti-tank is better than passing out 4 HK missiles to be paired with battlecannons, for example. The meltas will do more to expand your list, while the HKs will only make you better at what you're already doing. Sort of like taking power weapons in most of the places in the game you can take one.

well, besides which, they sorta boned you guys on the whole HK to-hit deal there.

Guard don't need help getting killer vehicles, though.

I think the issue for competitive play is synergy. Rhinos and razors are meant to move. Rhinos are meant to go 12" razors 6" and fire, in either scenario you can't fire the HK. if you go first and don't move so you can fire 6 hit or miss shots you are already losing. IMO movement is the most important phase of the game. This is coming from a guy who plays gun line wolves. My tanks are constantly moving.

I do see potential in higher point games though. You can increase tank durability and provide additional shots both while keeping your KP tally low. I think that is the forgotten strength.

Witzkatz wrote:Actually, the comparison to infantry combi-weapons is interesting - those seem to be used rather often. Granted, a combi-melta hit usually does more damage than a HK missile or a flamer might give you that extra anti-horde bonus - but still, the concept is no different, with the difference that *any* HK missile can be used at *any* distance if there is LOS.

That's something other combi-weapons can't do. And it's still S8 AP3!

That comparison was very very interesting. Everyone already commented on it, but yes, the comparison was great.

Nevelon wrote:

Spidey0804 wrote:I guess that's where I differ from a lot of people. I use my Rhinos for more than "can with tracks". They are an important part of laying down a supportive fire base. I run 3 of them decked out with my BSS having 2 Storm bolters from inside also.

Each vehicle gives me 8 dice worth of shooting a turn and the HK's compliments my Alpha strike allowing me to pick three more possible targets out on turn 1. If the Dice go well I have ability take out 9 vehicles turn 1.

The common thought is that they over costed. I use combi-weapons also this is no more than a combi-weapon for my rhino... that can hit something anywhere on the board...

Interesting thoughts. Another thing to consider is army type: not all HKs are equal. Someone pointed out BS 3 guard ones. SoB only have exorcists for long range anti-tank, and you might not be fielding them. HKs would be more appealing to someone who can't spam MLs in all his units. BA might get more use out of them with fast vehicles.

I'll pay for a suicide MM speeder, which might only get one shot off. Why won't I pay an equivalent number of points to slap HKs on everything I have with treads? Food for thought.

Yup, combi weapons that can hit anything (nonLOS withstanding). I think 6 HKs first turn are much more efective than 1 MM speeder turn 2 or 3.

Spidey0804 wrote:Now I only use 3 of them, and yes my HKs are BS 4 so they are better than guard ones.

I feel that even if I shot it at an MC and he takes a wound they were worth it. doubling out a Wraith is worth it also. Sometimes 1 HK can pay for all 3 that I use.

Would I use more than that? I dont think so. My BSS squads need their Rhinos so most of the time I deck them out to avoid them being glanced to death. Like you said for most armies they really aren't PNTs efficient but for the synergy of the list I run they give me some reach out and touch you threat.

More than often only 1 HK will pay off, but thats all you need, you shoot 6 KKs at a Pred or at a LR, you got a good chance to pop that thing first turn.

Green is Best! wrote:Very strange thought process coming up here. I have run HKs before with mixed results.

When they hit and kill something, they are a brilliant use of wargear. When they miss and do nothing, they are overcosted and worthless.

More interesting though, is the combi-weapon analogy. This is the same amount of points for the same gamble on dice (i.e. one shot - hit or miss and live with it). Whereas combi weapons need to get close, this is infinite range.

As in anything in 40k, redundancy is critical. I see this tactic being more effective in a list with several vehicles and each one taking an HK. This becomes even more effective if you plan to run a static shooty list (razorback spam, MotF 6 dread list, etc).

Lets just use 6 as the number of vehicles as it is a common number. 60 points for 6 1 shot infinite range missile shots. I am guessing the initial reaction for most is "OVERCOSTED! Waste of points, etc." But, what does 60 points by you? 2/3 of a landspeeder that gets 2 shots per turn? So, you need to keep it alive for 3 turns before you get a somewhat of a comparable return for investment back. Dev squad? Nope. It almost buys you the marines, let alone their missiles. What about one dreadnought with a missile launcher? You need to double the point value, hope the game goes to 6 turns, AND have the dreadnought survive the whole game to get the same number of shots back (yes, I know it has another gun, cc, etc.- just bear with me).

So, really, is this HK a waste of points? I am not so sure.

Now, looking at it from a general's perspective as opposed to an accountant's one (cost), I think the HK becomes more useful in mass numbers. The infinite range of this weapon is what makes it scary. Now, with an army that's purpose is to close with the enemy and engage up close, this tactic is indeed a waste of points. However, put this into a list full of predators, dreads, razorbacks (or rhinos with a heavy weapon inside), and LRs and it becomes even more versatile. That is just a ton of long range firepower that can be gamechanging on turn 1. The whole point of this game is to create situational mismatches so you can kill as much of the enemy while reducing the casualties you receive. So would it not be better to have an overwhelming amount of firepower on turn 1 (that does not have to be used on the 1st turn) over a steady trickle of the same amount of firepower spread out over 5 turns?

I feel like I am bouncing all over the map trying to explain this, but I do think the HK needs to get more love and respect than it currently does on today's internets.

I agree completely, thanks for the great point.

Randall Turner wrote:One of the elements that's often ignored on these one-shot weapons is force-over-time. Ignoring range and other AFV weapon systems, three HK missiles does NOT equal one ML over three turns, the HK's are better b/c their effect is (or can be) immediate. For illustration, if you have a 1/3 chance of killing your target, the three MK's will take him out in the first turn and avoid his potential return fire. Tons of other factors, but that's an often missed positive one.

Exactly, automatic destruction of a vehicle without it firing once, YES PLEASE!

Ailaros wrote:I like hunter killers, but usually spare points dictate I get something else instead.

Hunter killers are good because they give you more alpha strike power, and turns 1 and 2 is really when long-range weapons are in their element. As such, spending fewer points for something that is losing the ability to shoot, but in less useful turns, while making the unit better at its primary goal is a good thing.

The problem is that if you've got 40 points to spend on HK missiles, it's likely that those points can be better spent on primary weapon upgrades for other units rather than secondary upgrades for your tanks. Passing out 4 meltaguns to units that have no anti-tank is better than passing out 4 HK missiles to be paired with battlecannons, for example. The meltas will do more to expand your list, while the HKs will only make you better at what you're already doing. Sort of like taking power weapons in most of the places in the game you can take one.

Yes, but those HKs are used first turn! So that vehicle that you destroyed didn't get to fire a shot and you saved a vehicle of your own.

Red Corsair wrote:I think the issue for competitive play is synergy. Rhinos and razors are meant to move. Rhinos are meant to go 12" razors 6" and fire, in either scenario you can't fire the HK. if you go first and don't move so you can fire 6 hit or miss shots you are already losing. IMO movement is the most important phase of the game. This is coming from a guy who plays gun line wolves. My tanks are constantly moving.

I do see potential in higher point games though. You can increase tank durability and provide additional shots both while keeping your KP tally low. I think that is the forgotten strength.

Very good point, except for the exception of me. I field 3 LRs, which means I have POTMS, and the first turn after 12" sometimes my Laz cannons are not in range, so POTMS can be used first turn on the HKs to take out a target. But yes, what you said needs to be kept in mind for 99% of scenarios, very good point.

I would buy 5 hk's over 2 power fists, any day of the week and twice on sundays.

Red Corsair wrote:I think the issue for competitive play is synergy. Rhinos and razors are meant to move. Rhinos are meant to go 12" razors 6" and fire, in either scenario you can't fire the HK. if you go first and don't move so you can fire 6 hit or miss shots you are already losing. IMO movement is the most important phase of the game. This is coming from a guy who plays gun line wolves. My tanks are constantly moving.

I do see potential in higher point games though. You can increase tank durability and provide additional shots both while keeping your KP tally low. I think that is the forgotten strength.

? I can move 6 with a rhino and still fire it?

Hunter-killer Missile

Ahunter-killer missile has the following profile and can only be used once per battle.

Ahunter-killer missile is fired at Ballistic Skill 4 and treated as an additional weapon

SOB WDDex pg 92

I guess you were talking about firing it off of a Razorback. Yeah I don't put them on my Immolators seeing as I'm scouting them and running them either 6 or 12 more inches after the scout move. As for my rhinos most of the time they are milling around in my back field taking pot shots at anything that got blown out of transport... Or camping an OBJ.

imweasel wrote:I would buy 5 hk's over 2 power fists, any day of the week and twice on sundays.

Haha, ya, especialy sundays when the tourneys are, that is a great point!

Quick question, do HK missiles count as a weapon for the purposes of weapon destroyed results? Pretty sure they are, just wanted to double check

Yes, until they fire when they count as being destroyed. Too bad you cant have a weapon destroyed go to the weapon mount

Although the utility of HKs is less for Guard, I think there are some places where they can be put to good use. I often see musings about Sentinel armed Hunter-Killers because:

1.) They have an extra weapon "shot" (due to being walkers) that they're not otherwise using (so no opportunity cost).

2.) They can outflank, making more of a splash when they come into play. Alternatively, they can Scout, making sure you get a bunch of missiles where you want them on the first turn.

That being said, I think a Hellhound is a reasonable place to put one as well. Generally, there's not much of an opportunity cost to moving 12" vs. 18" the first turn, and either way, you won't have shots with the Inferno Cannon. In that case, you might as well take the shot on that first turn, and switch over to the Inferno Cannon the rest of the game.

I don't use them, but I don't run many transports. This is more of a feel for me, but I don't think they do anything.

1 hunter killer shooting at AV13 will Immobilize/Wreck/Destroy the target 8% of the time which mean you need to field and use 8 just to have a 50% chance of doing ideal damage to a vehicle.

Against AV 14 You have a 2% chance of Immobilizing it, which is the best result you can hope for.

Now against AV 11 it is better as you now have a 19% chance of getting the desired result, but you still need 3 just to have a 50-50 chance of doing anything good.