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TedNugent wrote:I think that you have to buy from your local stores or they go out of business, and then where the hell are you gonna play?

The same place I play now: the basement or living room of one of our group's houses.

Not everyone plays at a store. I choose not to for the same reason as Milisim:

The beauty of Garage gaming is that its invite only.. so no TFG or WAACs to ruin my night or some black T shirt wearing Tweeny who knows everything about everything.

I try splitting my purchases between wayland (for the cost save) and my flgs (for store support).

I always work out of the online saving is significant enough to postpone the enjoyment of a purchased item,if not, I put it through the store.

All my black library books, and gw paints are bought in store, for instance, whereas I often bulk buy minis, which I order through wayland as I can probably save at least £10, even after shipping. It's worth pointing out though that I read more books than buy minis, so it probably works out to be quite a balanced.deal

A store is a business. Offering gaming space is a business decision intended to encourage people to play in the store, in the hope that while people are there, they will buy stuff.

It's a very old principle of retail... The more time people spend in the store, the more likely they are to spend money there.

If a business offers a free service like that, there is no obligation for customers to buy something. Obviously the store would prefer them to do so... but ultimately, that gaming space is a form of marketing. Marketing will encourage some people to buy, and won't do so for others.

In that light, getting cranky that people are playing and not spending money is ultimately no different to getting cranky that people are watching your TV ad and not rushing to your store.

Having said that, if you're offering good tables and a comfortable place to play, customers will spend money while they are there... particularly if you sell snacks. Some won't, certainly. But that's only an issue if those 'some' are starting to add up to a significant percentage of the whole. And if they are, it's time for the store to stop and figure out what they are doing wrong, rather than to start pointing fingers at the people who are choosing where to spend their money, as is entirely their right as a potential customer.

You should pay where you play.

If you play at a store 100% of the time, 100% of your purchasing should be there. If you play at home because your local store lacks quality to keep you playing there, then buy elsewhere. If you are not playing there, then you owe them nothing.

If you continue to play at a store, but bitch and moan about how they don't serve your needs or other arguments, but still play there, then you owe them your business proportionate to the time you spend there taking up table space. If you still are playing there, they obviously are providing you some sort of service you like to consume by providing space which they pay rent on, so you do owe them something.

Oh, and buying a snickers bar then spending 300$ at an online discounter does not make you a paying customer. Most snacks they have to buy the food retail and don't make a signifigant profit off of it as they pay close to what it costs you to walk to the 7-11 next door. Many places they can't serve food without permits even. Depending on location, it makes it very hard to compete with the other food places in the strip mall. People will go elsewhere for simple 25 cents difference in cost for snacks.

nkelsch wrote:If you continue to play at a store, but bitch and moan about how they don't serve your needs or other arguments, but still play there, then you owe them your business proportionate to the time you spend there taking up table space.

Yeah, that's backwards.

If a store offers, say, a free sausage to everyone who walks in the door, are you obligated to buy something of at least an equivalent value to the sausage?

No, of course you're not. The store is hoping that by enticing you in the door with sausagey comestibles that you will stay and buy something... but there is no obligation involved.

Gaming space is ultimately no different. That gaming space is marketing, pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Most snacks they have to buy the food retail and don't make a signifigant profit off of it as they pay close to what it costs you to walk to the 7-11 next door.

Having worked in a games store for a while, I can say for a fact that this is not true. Even buying at retail, clever buying can get you stuff at a significant enough discount to still make a generous profit. Our confectionery came from a small distributor, and had a huge margin. Drinks were bought from a grocery store... Buying the big cartons of cans works out cheap enough to sell at a normal price with a significant margin.

I try to buy at least half of the stuff that i use from my FLGS. The owner is a great guy who supplies us with an amazing place to come and play games. he also works hard to have events and to provide us with a fun atmosphere.

People who do nothing to support their local FLGS and order everything on line are doing nothing to help their hobby in my eyes. Part of the essential need for a game store is so that we can all get together at a communal location, hang out , game model and talk. Those stores are not free. Rent has to get paid somehow.

Bottom line. Buy stuff from your local shop and support the community as well as the hobby.

insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:If you continue to play at a store, but bitch and moan about how they don't serve your needs or other arguments, but still play there, then you owe them your business proportionate to the time you spend there taking up table space.

Yeah, that's backwards.

If a store offers, say, a free sausage to everyone who walks in the door, are you obligated to buy something of at least an equivalent value to the sausage?

No, of course you're not. The store is hoping that by enticing you in the door with sausagey comestibles that you will stay and buy something... but there is no obligation involved.

Gaming space is ultimately no different. That gaming space is marketing, pure and simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Most snacks they have to buy the food retail and don't make a significant profit off of it as they pay close to what it costs you to walk to the 7-11 next door.

Having worked in a games store for a while, I can say for a fact that this is not true. Even buying at retail, clever buying can get you stuff at a significant enough discount to still make a generous profit. Our confectionery came from a small distributor, and had a huge margin. Drinks were bought from a grocery store... Buying the big cartons of cans works out cheap enough to sell at a normal price with a significant margin.

If you were in the business of selling snacks, you would be running a snack bar. Going to a store every weekend and taking up table space for hours and buying a snickers bar is not doing anyone any favors or make you a good customer.

I don't agree that free gaming space is the same as advertising. People playing games and demoing product for lookie-loos is advertising. People who are playing the game and taking up space is a service. I equate it to a restaurant. Sure I can eat at home and it will be cheaper, when I go out to eat, I have to pay for the restaurant's overhead and the service staff int he cost of food. Costs I don't pay at home. Part of eating out is paying the extra cost and paying a tip to my server.

What happens is people play at a store, pay for nothing, expect overhead costs like terrain to be paid and them taking up space drives potential customers of other products out of the store, becomes anti-advertising when someone who wishes to play 40k walks into a store wall to wall with pokemon kids playing card games. This is where groups of people who buy product in the store justify the store blocking off time for them to get the gaming space for their use.

If we have 3 groups of people, card gamers, wargamers and roleplayers, and the roleplayers and card gamers spend money on product and the wargamers buy a snickers bar every other week, who should the sotre cater to and allow use of the tables? Those who support the store are the ones who get the gaming space allocated for them, You don't allocate gaming space to people who are not going to pay. The fastest way to kill wargaming on weekends and lose your FLGS to card gamers is to buy everything from discounters. I consider the MSRP I pay in a FLGS the same thing as tipping a server in a restaurant. Sure I could get it cheaper online, but they provide me gaming space which is good enough to draw me into the store. If I game there a 3rd of my time, they get a 3rd of my overall business.

People feel entitled to free gaming space. I think that is a terrible attitude as wargaming ends up being a waste of rent space and loses out to other customer bases quickly when people don't support their local store. For some people, no amount of free gaming, great terrain and prime gaming times will make these customers buy in the store.

I buy most of my non-GW purchases locally. The gaming stores have done nothing in particular to earn my loyalty (and for one at least I think my purchases are just prolonging the inevitable) but the cost different to online retailers is low enough that I don't mind paying the extra $4-5 for the convenience of getting it right now.
None of my GW purchases are made here, because I'm in Australia and its less than half price to get it elsewhere.

None of the stores around here (except the GW's) have gaming tables. I don't know why, but they don't, so I don''t have any issues with the 'pay where you play' stuff.

insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:If you continue to play at a store, but bitch and moan about how they don't serve your needs or other arguments, but still play there, then you owe them your business proportionate to the time you spend there taking up table space.

Yeah, that's backwards.

If a store offers, say, a free sausage to everyone who walks in the door, are you obligated to buy something of at least an equivalent value to the sausage?

No, of course you're not. The store is hoping that by enticing you in the door with sausagey comestibles that you will stay and buy something... but there is no obligation involved.

Gaming space is ultimately no different. That gaming space is marketing, pure and simple.

Obligation is a tricky word though.

If a friend helps you move, are you obligated to help them when they need to move?

If a relative invites you to your wedding, are you obligated to invite them to yours?

If you accidentally spill wine on a friends clothes, are you obligated to offer to pay for the cleaning bill?

If you accidentally destroy someones model, are you obligated to replace it?

Often, you don't have to do anything. But sometimes you're taking advantage and being a dick. I think buying all your stuff online and gaming at the local store is the crossing the line.

swordbrotherjim wrote:
What do you think when someone at your local game store buys all their stuff on line and never even buys a sida their complains because of the stores lack of product?

I think he's smart- Who is going to buy at a store that doesnt have the proper stock, and at full price?

Only fools do. FLGS arent a charity, if they want sales they need to give reasons for folks buying there. Having tables arent enough. I can play in my friends basement.

nkelsch wrote:If you were in the business of selling snacks, you would be running a snack bar.

...or just a game store owner who knows his client base...

nkelsch wrote:I don't agree that free gaming space is the same as advertising. People playing games and demoing product for lookie-loos is advertising. People who are playing the game and taking up space is a service.

Of course it's a service. But free services offered by a business are simply a form of marketing. They don't (generally, at least for the successful ones) offer that service just because they can. They offer that service because it encourages you to spend more time in the store.

If we have 3 groups of people, card gamers, wargamers and roleplayers, and the roleplayers and card gamers spend money on product and the wargamers buy a snickers bar every other week, who should the sotre cater to and allow use of the tables?

Clearly they shouldn't. So as is the case with any business, they would then have to decide whether to keep the gaming space and keep losing money on space that could be better utilised for something else, remove the gaming space, or find a way to encourage the wargamers to spend more money.

It's not up to the customer to fix the store owner's chosen business model.

People feel entitled to free gaming space.

No, I don't think they do.

They'll make use of it if it is provided, though.


Of course, some of that is going to come down to regional thinking. I don't expect hobby stores to have gaming space, because here in Oz most of them don't. But then, I'm not looking to play in a store either, because there are other venues that are more comfortable.

swordbrotherjim wrote:
What do you think when someone at your local game store buys all their stuff on line and never even buys a soda then complains because of the store's lack of product?

I don't play in a store, so don't have an issue with it.
People in the clubs I play at also don't care. They pay their share of the hiring fee, and from that point, we don't care where they got their army (and if they are playing a GW game, whether or not it is an army made from GW models) and whether or not they buy food or drinks from the venue. We make it clear about the venue rules about not bringing food or drink in from outside (if they have them), though.

I buy stuff rarely - and usually only a piece at a time, whether it be a model, paint or so on. My purchases are not going to stop a store going under - and anything I buy from the net is because I can't get it in a local store (I've asked and they've said it wasn't worth trying to get that particular product in).

That said, local store now stocks Infinity and will support the game (shame the local players who use the store won't remove their GW or PP blinders - both groups are evangelical in their hatred of non-core games, and the PP crowd are worse only because they "converted" from "GW-worship" - and there are none so devout as a convert) so I will buy stuff from him when and if I need it and he has it in stock. I still won't play there (I have free time during the day, 8-3pm, he doesn't open until midday, so it's just not a good option time-wise).

I will support it not out of some "obligation". I will support it because I like the owner - he's at least offering an alternative to the local GW store - and because he has stuff I will buy.

Kaldor wrote:If a friend helps you move, are you obligated to help them when they need to move?

A more apt analogy would be: If a removalist helps you move for free in order to promote his business, are you obligated to pay the registration on his truck?


None of your analogies are related to the issue, because none of them are to do with business transactions. The customer does not have an obligation to the business owner. The business owner provides a service, the customer makes use of it. If the customer is not spending as much as the business needs, then that is a flaw in the business model, not the fault of the customer.

What if they dont offer any products of a game I play? Especially if its something OOP

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:I would not care. None of the stores I frequent has earned by loyalty to a point where I would step up to defend them pro bono.

Just out of curiosity, what are they supposed to do in order to earn your loyalty? Provide lavish game tables? Keeping every model in stock all the time? 20% discounts across the board? Free cookies?

It depends a good start is actually have something I want. If I need you to order it for me I am just going to order it online for cheaper. My local game store is very friendly but has almost no stock. I will go there and buy paint and stuff but that is about it. And the only reason I do this is because they actually are nice to their customers. When a new wave comes out if they happen to get something in I want right away then I might pick it up but there stock is soooo bad they don't even get most of the new stuff in. Free cookies pretty much gets me every time....... and discounts would be a good idea too. Doesn't need to be 20% but throw me a bone here.

A gaming store needs to give me a reason to want to buy there. And yes having people actively engaged in gaming is advertising. I have had numerous people who don't play warhammer watch me play a game over the years and some of them have even bought stuff after watching a game, asking questions, and deciding it looked fun.

I buy locally pretty regularly........though I also trade and shop ebay as well.........BUT......we have three shops here........shop "A" used to be the place to play they allowed their tables to consistantly get covered up with garbage and people left........now the shop is discontinuing there GW products.........shop "B" always has a huge selection but is a tiny hole in the wall.......not very comfortable to play at at god forbid if you want something ordered they have a tendancy to forget.....recently when the new fliers came out they neglected to order those.....and was told we will have them next week........i drove 30 minutes away and got mine..........finally shop "C"............they dont sell GW products because how much you have to keep stocked...............but they open up to us to play at (they have tons of tables cause they focus on magic)

like whats been said..........good service and the people will be there and spend and keep yyou going...............bad service and you wont last

Well at my local store it is a two edged sword, since I live in the south, people are more open to swearing and basically not bathing correctly. The owner and his late hours staffer are EXCELLENT, their magic and comic guru is an oddity to say the least but valuable to the stores survival as he has connections to every large magic player within a 30 mile radius and constantly has great stock.

With that said, yes I buy things from the store when I feel it is worth it (usually based on my last visit, the double edge thing again) and when I'm there I offer to help the owner as well with what he needs. We have an excellent but small core of 40k players with a huge base of magic/pokemon/marvel/dc/yugioh players as well.

By becoming a regular in the store you actually gain benefits as well, such as back door access from the rear parking lot (lug that army made of pewter and you too love that door) and discount cards that are filled out from purchases.

We have 2k tournys every week but the achilles heel of keeping it is the expense of building such a large army to participate, I fought with a 1.2k guard army in a 2k tourney my first time just to play and have fun, and the owner earned my business because he loaned out his chimeras and a couple more tanks from his IG army and tried to haggle for more from a friend of his to boost me up.

So yes, long story short, my store has earned its place and I buy in store when I can, but I also try and save money when I can as well buying online.

I typically view people who buy online and play at a store to just be people. Sure it would be nice if they bought stuff in store to keep them afloat but not necessary. The second they start complaining about store stuff I typically view them as despicable. If you want to just use the space fine. But the second you complain and then try and justify why your complaining you have jumped the shark to despicable.

I personally only buy at my flgs. I don't see the benefit in paying 20%less at an online retailer only to pay that mostly back in shipping(eBay buying is another thing entirely) and then have my store close down. And be stuck with MARGINALLY cheaper mini's.

kenshin620 wrote:What if they dont offer any products of a game I play? Especially if its something OOP

I think everything has an exception.

If it is OOP its obvious you can't buy it there (reasonable assumption to make). However if you play there and still make purchases (of whatever), then its fine. More aptly, be a customer of a store, not just a parasite for free table space.


Edit:

The playing in store thing, even if you didn't buy it there, could help the store too. Like most of my catachans I didn't buy in the store (besides the newer vehicle kits). If I set it out and make 2 exact copy lists (which I do sometimes), and play against some kid looking at trying it out, and he decides to get the game, I just made the store money.

So if I buy a game they don't stock, bring it in, and players are interested and he picks up some starter sets, I have made him money without spending a dime there.

Of course, I think some weeks I am the only thing keeping him in business.

insaniak wrote:

Kaldor wrote:If a friend helps you move, are you obligated to help them when they need to move?

A more apt analogy would be: If a removalist helps you move for free in order to promote his business, are you obligated to pay the registration on his truck?


None of your analogies are related to the issue, because none of them are to do with business transactions. The customer does not have an obligation to the business owner. The business owner provides a service, the customer makes use of it. If the customer is not spending as much as the business needs, then that is a flaw in the business model, not the fault of the customer.

It's not an analogy, but an exploration of the use of the word obligation.

I remember reading about a restaurant where all the meals were free, and patrons were only asked to pay what they felt the meal was worth.

At a venue where I used to work, we had masseurs come through and offer free massages. They asked you to pay what you felt the massage was worth.

I think that principle is more apt than anything else. The store provides you free tables and terrain and time to play, and in turn asks you to 'donate' what you feel that is worth by purchasing from the store.

There will always be douche-bags who want to abuse that system and take without giving.

Kaldor wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Kaldor wrote:If a friend helps you move, are you obligated to help them when they need to move?

A more apt analogy would be: If a removalist helps you move for free in order to promote his business, are you obligated to pay the registration on his truck?


None of your analogies are related to the issue, because none of them are to do with business transactions. The customer does not have an obligation to the business owner. The business owner provides a service, the customer makes use of it. If the customer is not spending as much as the business needs, then that is a flaw in the business model, not the fault of the customer.

It's not an analogy, but an exploration of the use of the word obligation.

I remember reading about a restaurant where all the meals were free, and patrons were only asked to pay what they felt the meal was worth.

At a venue where I used to work, we had masseurs come through and offer free massages. They asked you to pay what you felt the massage was worth.

I think that principle is more apt than anything else. The store provides you free tables and terrain and time to play, and in turn asks you to 'donate' what you feel that is worth by purchasing from the store.

There will always be douche-bags who want to abuse that system and take without giving.

I read the same article.. It was Bon Jovi's resturant.. I believe its in new york.. was a good read, now back on topic.. lol..

I have a LGS that I refuse to play at, but I still buy paint there, because it's easier to walk 5 minutes down the road to buy paint than order online or drive an hour to get a couple pots. Do I want to give them business? No. But sanity overrides stubbornness. I don't buy minis there though. I buy Warhammer minis at a store an hour away, whenever I go to play Battletech there, and usually at a 25% discount on my entire purchase. It's a good system. I play and buy real purchases in one store, buy paint only in the other store. One store has a friendly owner who knows all the games and he plays them all, the other is friendly to your face but backstabs you as soon as you turn (happened to MANY of my friends, including me) and only knows D&D, boardgames and Magic. Why support a store that I don't like? No thanks.

Kaldor wrote:I think that principle is more apt than anything else. The store provides you free tables and terrain and time to play, and in turn asks you to 'donate' what you feel that is worth by purchasing from the store.

And if I don't see any value in paying to play?


If the store is not actually specifically asking customers to pay to use the tables, there is no implicit contract that applies if you walk in the door.

Having said that, I have no problem with the idea of spending my cash where I play. I've been playing in a few tournaments lately, which require an entry fee... and for the trade-off of getting a solid weekend of gaming on decent tables, and the chance to win some of my cash back in tournament goodies, I'm more than happy to pay.

But for a store, it's not a straight one-for-one deal. If the only choice I have is to buy product, and so for the privilege of using some tables that are in all likelihood not as good as what I have at home I have to pay twice what I would be paying for the same miniatures online? Yeah, that's not going to happen.


Hence my comment about snacks... The store has the option of asking me directly to pay to use their tables, in which cases the chances are that I'll just go elsewhere, or they can make sure they have stuff that I do want to buy... in which case I'll happily throw some money their way while I'm playing.

If I buy new he stuff it's always at my flgs. However most of my stuff is used so I got it online. All my extra stuff though, dice, comics, and other little things I always get at my flgs unless they don't have it or can't find it

I find I have to buy a fair amount of stuff at my 2 FLGS's..

Partially cause they know me and what I do online, (and I get ribbed about it, a bit) but .... I DO also buy stuff locally to send off to trade partners..

Not to mention my FLGS owner occasionally asks me to try to nab something for him online that is OOP..

-P

I buy almost all of my GW stuff in the FLGS (now that I have a job and I can afford it) but for side games such as Warmachine I typically go through Maelstrom.

I think that a lot of these problems could be fixed by just renting the tables to play. It's not really significantly different then a pool hall, is it?

I personally don't see the big deal about plopping down, say, $10 for a 4 hour block of time on a table, or selling monthly passes good for unlimited play, etc etc. Of course, much like at a pool hall, I'd expect good equipment, nice terrain, and so on and so forth.

Ouze wrote:I think that a lot of these problems could be fixed by just renting the tables to play. It's not really significantly different then a pool hall, is it?

I personally don't see the big deal about plopping down, say, $10 for a 4 hour block of time on a table, or selling monthly passes good for unlimited play, etc etc. Of course, much like at a pool hall, I'd expect good equipment, nice terrain, and so on and so forth.

It would be interesting to see how that works. I think unfortunately for the idea it is ingrained in the culture that a hobby shop should offer a free place to play. Most hobby shops also don't really have nice terrain either. So it is an uphill battle for an owner to be able to do this succesfully.

swordbrotherjim wrote:
What do you think when someone at your local game store buys all their stuff on line and never even buys a sida their complains because of the stores lack of product?

Killins too good for 'em...

Hangin's too good for 'em...


Normally I'd rip them up into tiny little pieces and bury them alive!!!!


Urp.....

I was a struggling college student previously and completely understand buying 2nd or online for the sweet 20-30% off discount.

For men with careers past their twenties? Please support your FLGS. Even if its 20$ a month on a few paints or a single mini. You game there. Think of it as your "Rent" to play