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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

erikwfg wrote:It could be a better way of doing the damage, but it would unbalance the armies which have multiwound tough creatures. I can't see why an ork nob would die from krak but a captain would not. The base stats of a nob are far superior to a marine, the character only has the extra wounds because he's heroic. Now incorporating power armor realistically there may be a chance, but our ap system is an all or nothing thing.

If anything with EW is easily killable in game then I can't logically understand that. EW is outrageous, and now i'm of the mindset that anything in the game having it makes no sense. I would say a definite no with anything in the game gaining EW, it would be much better represented by extra wounds and/or special abilities.

The reason for a Captain>Nob, is that nobz run into battle with almost no protection, and that a SM's power armour would be able to reduce the damage, as well as being a shield.

But in all fairness, that's what AP is for, and the missile makes even power armour useless as it is so strong, if the bullet can punch through the armour then the Ork and the SM are the same when it comes to how tough they are, the Captain can only withstand more fire at a less strength, but even something as strong as a missile would kill him outright.

You make sense, but going back to my point, Captain Sicarius is a special character in the vanilla marine codex, and is seen as second to Calgar himself (Ultramarines Chapter Master). Why would a veteran of thousands of battles, toughened up by his Artificer Armour (Like terminator armour, but more mobile) and his Iron Halo (4+ invuln), be killed in one blow?

Wrakkar wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

erikwfg wrote:It could be a better way of doing the damage, but it would unbalance the armies which have multiwound tough creatures. I can't see why an ork nob would die from krak but a captain would not. The base stats of a nob are far superior to a marine, the character only has the extra wounds because he's heroic. Now incorporating power armor realistically there may be a chance, but our ap system is an all or nothing thing.

If anything with EW is easily killable in game then I can't logically understand that. EW is outrageous, and now i'm of the mindset that anything in the game having it makes no sense. I would say a definite no with anything in the game gaining EW, it would be much better represented by extra wounds and/or special abilities.

The reason for a Captain>Nob, is that nobz run into battle with almost no protection, and that a SM's power armour would be able to reduce the damage, as well as being a shield.

But in all fairness, that's what AP is for, and the missile makes even power armour useless as it is so strong, if the bullet can punch through the armour then the Ork and the SM are the same when it comes to how tough they are, the Captain can only withstand more fire at a less strength, but even something as strong as a missile would kill him outright.

You make sense, but going back to my point, Captain Sicarius is a special character in the vanilla marine codex, and is seen as second to Calgar himself (Ultramarines Chapter Master). Why would a veteran of thousands of battles, toughened up by his Artificer Armour (Like terminator armour, but more mobile) and his Iron Halo (4+ invuln), be killed in one blow?

my rational is that these characters mostly named and long lived would have to have the experience to survey the battlefield and see the missiles or melta guns and would actively avoid. the enemy would try to hit but whereas a newly minted space marine new to his proto glands or a ork boy/nob hasn't been around enough battles to take everything in. the EW imo would represent their reaction to said weapons oh they are aiming at us no time to yell or call alarm but as second nature they'd jump and hit the deck or get behind cover to try and avoid being hit.

nobz are good and all stat wise but really they are kind of like the ork Sergeant more than anything else. but a ork big mek or warboss would have had to have some way of living long enough to be the biggest the meanest and the greenest

Exactly. The more veteranised they are, the less easy to kill they should be. They should not be as easy to kill as a standard trooper, otherwise, we may as well save about 75+ points by not using heroes, and just buy another squad.

Actually that view of EW makes sense in an abstract system. There's nothing saying they actually got hit.

In a setting as populated as 40k there is bound to be some people who have just survived through sheer odds. I don't see any reason they'd be tougher than normal.

erikwfg wrote:Actually that view of EW makes sense in an abstract system. There's nothing saying they actually got hit.

In a setting as populated as 40k there is bound to be some people who have just survived through sheer odds. I don't see any reason they'd be tougher than normal.

yea i kind of liken my interpretation of eternal warrior to be either hyper awareness or sheer luck

i remember a book, forget the name but it was a world where earth was starting to colonize other worlds and each crewman was selected for their special skills except one random woman who nobody knows why she is there... she is just really lucky and somebody recognized that. in that world if i remember right you can only have one child and enter a lottery to have as second child. she was born from one of those lottery's... as was her mother... and her mothers mother and back several generations and in the book she happens upon alot of useful important things... just like in real life or in the book or in 40k ... no reason something just can't be really really statistically abnormally lucky

G00fySmiley wrote:

erikwfg wrote:Actually that view of EW makes sense in an abstract system. There's nothing saying they actually got hit.

In a setting as populated as 40k there is bound to be some people who have just survived through sheer odds. I don't see any reason they'd be tougher than normal.

yea i kind of liken my interpretation of eternal warrior to be either hyper awareness or sheer luck

i remember a book, forget the name but it was a world where earth was starting to colonize other worlds and each crewman was selected for their special skills except one random woman who nobody knows why she is there... she is just really lucky and somebody recognized that. in that world if i remember right you can only have one child and enter a lottery to have as second child. she was born from one of those lottery's... as was her mother... and her mothers mother and back several generations and in the book she happens upon alot of useful important things... just like in real life or in the book or in 40k ... no reason something just can't be really really statistically abnormally lucky

True, but there is going to be a time when luck just runs out...

Wait. Is that against my previous arguments or not...?

I think that, in a way it's unfair, but if he's in a unit he can just make another guy soak up a missile anyway. But while it is unfair how it is now, it would be more unfair if every character would be able to get EW, some would be really hard to kill as they can have good inv saves and already have good armour saves and the like, and having a 6 Wound MC being immune to ID can pretty much guarantee them winning combat, Most Nid creatures already have Shadow of the Warp and nearly all MC's bar the Harpy i believe cannot be ID'd by weapons double the Toughness, so while I think that more characters should have EW i think it would be unbalanced on the game abit.

This pretty much removes the entire point of ID. characters, HQ's, MC's aren't meant to be invincible, against most weapons they will only take 1 wound, but there's just some things that are too damn powerful even for them to survive. ID was meant as a hard-counter to such units to prevent them from just being thrown willy-nilly into anything without some sort of real worry. If you give EW to them all, you might as well just remove ID altogether and bump their cost.

Wrakkar wrote:

You make sense, but going back to my point, Captain Sicarius is a special character in the vanilla marine codex, and is seen as second to Calgar himself (Ultramarines Chapter Master). Why would a veteran of thousands of battles, toughened up by his Artificer Armour (Like terminator armour, but more mobile) and his Iron Halo (4+ invuln), be killed in one blow?

Because it's powerful enough to turn his armor and body into tiny flaming pieces and a fine mist?

Vaktathi wrote:This pretty much removes the entire point of ID. characters, HQ's, MC's aren't meant to be invincible, against most weapons they will only take 1 wound, but there's just some things that are too damn powerful even for them to survive. ID was meant as a hard-counter to such units to prevent them from just being thrown willy-nilly into anything without some sort of real worry. If you give EW to them all, you might as well just remove ID altogether and bump their cost.

Wrakkar wrote:

You make sense, but going back to my point, Captain Sicarius is a special character in the vanilla marine codex, and is seen as second to Calgar himself (Ultramarines Chapter Master). Why would a veteran of thousands of battles, toughened up by his Artificer Armour (Like terminator armour, but more mobile) and his Iron Halo (4+ invuln), be killed in one blow?

Because it's powerful enough to turn his armor and body into tiny flaming pieces and a fine mist?

Well played, sir. Well played

Yeah, that's the sort of thing ID is supposed to represent. Epic heroes can take many blows that my fell lesser men and creatures, but without some sort of divine intervention (which in this game is quite possible for some characters, hence why EW does exist for some) that siege cannon shell isn't going to leave much to look at if it lands nearby, epic hero or not, ultimately they're still flesh and blood (in most cases, one will notice the Daemons of the Warp care not).

Vaktathi wrote:Yeah, that's the sort of thing ID is supposed to represent. Epic heroes can take many blows that my fell lesser men and creatures, but without some sort of divine intervention (which in this game is quite possible for some characters, hence why EW does exist for some) that siege cannon shell isn't going to leave much to look at if it lands nearby, epic hero or not, ultimately they're still flesh and blood (in most cases, one will notice the Daemons of the Warp care not).

Agreed, Also that's what invulnerable saves are for, so they can try and avoid it, you'll see in the fluff some Invs involve dodging out of the way, others just have a force field, and this is how they can survive such a blast.

Vaktathi wrote:Yeah, that's the sort of thing ID is supposed to represent. Epic heroes can take many blows that my fell lesser men and creatures, but without some sort of divine intervention (which in this game is quite possible for some characters, hence why EW does exist for some) that siege cannon shell isn't going to leave much to look at if it lands nearby, epic hero or not, ultimately they're still flesh and blood (in most cases, one will notice the Daemons of the Warp care not).

I love how Calgar with his EW and 4+ invuln can easily take shots from titan weaponry XD Just the picture of him sitting in a giant crater makes me smile

If you ask me (you are asking me right?) the problem is not that some named characters lack eternal warrior, but that eternal warrior exists to begin with. Some obvious exceptions are allowed. I think C'tan should be exempt from ID. Daemons probably too.

I don't care how special of a snowflake he feels he is, Chapter Master Fakelatinnamicus SHOULD die if he eats the output of a lascannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even certain MCs I think should die from ID, though usually their high T usually prevents this except form force weapons, which I am on the fence about.

Because you nicked a set of capillaries on the foot of a carnifex does not mean you should be able to blow apart the entire 'fex.

Maybe the solution isn't that EW gets bandied even more than it is, but perhaps that ID gets reined in a bit. Consider this: Drop EW on ALL models. Wait! Hear me out. Instead of ID, double S causes 1d3 wounds. Now, Captain Fancypantus and the Snowflake squad can heroically avoid getting killed because they managed to jump out of the way last minute.... or not. Additionally, a single Purifier can't vaporize two carnifexen on a lucky roll.

I think that giving every IC and his dog EW would turn the game into herohammer. Except under a few circumstances, if you get hit by my demolisher cannon, I think that should kill you.

daedalus wrote:If you ask me (you are asking me right?) the problem is not that some named characters lack eternal warrior, but that eternal warrior exists to begin with. Some obvious exceptions are allowed. I think C'tan should be exempt from ID. Daemons probably too.

I don't care how special of a snowflake he feels he is, Chapter Master Fakelatinnamicus SHOULD die if he eats the output of a lascannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even certain MCs I think should die from ID, though usually their high T usually prevents this except form force weapons, which I am on the fence about.

Because you nicked a set of capillaries on the foot of a carnifex does not mean you should be able to blow apart the entire 'fex.

Maybe the solution isn't that EW gets bandied even more than it is, but perhaps that ID gets reined in a bit. Consider this: Drop EW on ALL models. Wait! Hear me out. Instead of ID, double S causes 1d3 wounds. Now, Captain Fancypantus and the Snowflake squad can heroically avoid getting killed because they managed to jump out of the way last minute.... or not. Additionally, a single Purifier can't vaporize two carnifexen on a lucky roll.

Purty good idea..
Titan weapons that atomise anything it hits should be doing at least some extra damage to heroes

Grammarz sux doznt it?

In the game you can put the named character in a squad that will take some of the damage aimed at him.

Just get rid of EA and ID. They're cheesy as hell and nothings worse than paying a huge amount of points for a hero/monster with tons of wounds only to be insta-gibbed by something silly. 40k is heroic and these moments are just plain lame.
You can't say, oh, a captain taking a lascannon to the chest should instant kill because then it should make no difference than if he took a bolter to the head. The idea is that a captain can take 3x the fatal punishment his lesser marine brothers can take because he's badass and a captain. A bolter to the visor would fatally wound a redshirt marine as much as a captain "IRL" so lets avoid realism arguments.

I don't mind the idea of critical damage but loosing all wounds at once is too much. Maybe have ID stuff do D3 wounds instead of insta-gib and have REALLY big guns do D6.

Protip: The less rolls you add to the system, the better. Standardize your critical hits: 2 Wounds, 3 Wounds.

terranarc wrote:Just get rid of EA and ID. They're cheesy as hell and nothings worse than paying a huge amount of points for a hero/monster with tons of wounds only to be insta-gibbed by something silly. 40k is heroic and these moments are just plain lame.
You can't say, oh, a captain taking a lascannon to the chest should instant kill because then it should make no difference than if he took a bolter to the head. The idea is that a captain can take 3x the fatal punishment his lesser marine brothers can take because he's badass and a captain. A bolter to the visor would fatally wound a redshirt marine as much as a captain "IRL" so lets avoid realism arguments.

I don't mind the idea of critical damage but loosing all wounds at once is too much. Maybe have ID stuff do D3 wounds instead of insta-gib and have REALLY big guns do D6.

Rumour has it something like this is happening with Instant Death anyways. If it's correct, any Instant Death hit that is equal to or under the target's Toughness causes 2 Wounds while anything exceeding the target's Toughness causes 3 Wounds.

If it's true it may not be perfect but at least it's a step in the right direction.

terranarc wrote:Just get rid of EA and ID. They're cheesy as hell and nothings worse than paying a huge amount of points for a hero/monster with tons of wounds only to be insta-gibbed by something silly. 40k is heroic and these moments are just plain lame.
You can't say, oh, a captain taking a lascannon to the chest should instant kill because then it should make no difference than if he took a bolter to the head. The idea is that a captain can take 3x the fatal punishment his lesser marine brothers can take because he's badass and a captain. A bolter to the visor would fatally wound a redshirt marine as much as a captain "IRL" so lets avoid realism arguments.

I don't mind the idea of critical damage but loosing all wounds at once is too much. Maybe have ID stuff do D3 wounds instead of insta-gib and have REALLY big guns do D6.

I believe in ID and less EW, but this post has a few points. Mainly that ID is not a heroic moment, so seems pretty bad in a game like 40k.

terranarc wrote:Just get rid of EA and ID. They're cheesy as hell and nothings worse than paying a huge amount of points for a hero/monster with tons of wounds only to be insta-gibbed by something silly. 40k is heroic and these moments are just plain lame.
You can't say, oh, a captain taking a lascannon to the chest should instant kill because then it should make no difference than if he took a bolter to the head. The idea is that a captain can take 3x the fatal punishment his lesser marine brothers can take because he's badass and a captain. A bolter to the visor would fatally wound a redshirt marine as much as a captain "IRL" so lets avoid realism arguments.

I don't mind the idea of critical damage but loosing all wounds at once is too much. Maybe have ID stuff do D3 wounds instead of insta-gib and have REALLY big guns do D6.

What about titan weapons that do strength "D" because they can basically atomise whatever it hits?

they would count as really big guns, at least

G00fySmiley wrote:
yay grey knights attack, their one wound strips off 4 wounds of a lengendary firugre in 40k because.... matt ward said almsot all grey knights get cool force weapons?

No, Matt Ward is not, and I repeat, NOT responsible for GK force weapons. They have had them since their conception.

Sorry, but that rather rustled my jimmies. On the subject at hand, I would say instant death needs re working - perhaps named characters are immune to it, rather than handing out eternal warrior to everyone. Maybe just SCs are immune to it, scrapping EW. Another thought is that weapons don't case instant death, but D3/ D6 wounds fantasy style, or double wounds.

Maybe Introduce the fantasy system where they have Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow, so only things with Heroic killing blow can kill characters outright.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Maybe Introduce the fantasy system where they have Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow, so only things with Heroic killing blow can kill characters outright.

That could work.

da wut?

Wrakkar wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Maybe Introduce the fantasy system where they have Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow, so only things with Heroic killing blow can kill characters outright.

That could work.

i love giving virtue of heroism to anyone that can take it, heroic killing blow rocks

"oh, you have a slann in CC with my lord who has Heroic killing blow, sweet"

dajobe wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Maybe Introduce the fantasy system where they have Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow, so only things with Heroic killing blow can kill characters outright.

That could work.

i love giving virtue of heroism to anyone that can take it, heroic killing blow rocks

"oh, you have a slann in CC with my lord who has Heroic killing blow, sweet"

Makes his 4+ Ward saves

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

dajobe wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:Maybe Introduce the fantasy system where they have Killing Blow and Heroic Killing Blow, so only things with Heroic killing blow can kill characters outright.

That could work.

i love giving virtue of heroism to anyone that can take it, heroic killing blow rocks

"oh, you have a slann in CC with my lord who has Heroic killing blow, sweet"

Makes his 4+ Ward saves

feth, now he shall pwn the world in the next magic phase...

This rule would make SC much more powerful than they currently are. I dont see anyone taking the regular capitan or archon if you oculd have an EW one for about the same points.


The complaints about Dante are silly. ID does not mean death, it means out of the battle. Many of the mightiest space marines have been downed by a power claw or a krak missile fractureing their leg or knocking them unconsious to fight another day. EW is reserved for characters that are so driven they will fight on with all their bones broken, their brain dripping out of a huge gash in their head, 90% of their blood spilled on the floor and multiple spears running them through. Its about characters that will fight with reckless abandon to the point that they put their lives in more serious danger. They dont have any hope of living to see another day instead they trade their chance to survive another thousand years for another 5 minutes on the battlefield.