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Its there somewhere. It gets quoted in most of these type of threads.

But I agree, its just one passage of one author saying its one way. Just like its one passage with one author saying its another way.

GW fluff goes round and round like this because each book is written from the POV of one factor or another and I'm sure each BL author doesn't consult with all the others about every aspect they are writing to avoid cross fluff roadblocks.

This is also true, and it's why we have such weird sliding scales of Space Marine representation in general from "big gruff infantrymen" to "religious demi-gods"

Vaktathi wrote:This is also true, and it's why we have such weird sliding scales of Space Marine representation in general from "big gruff infantrymen" to "religious demi-gods"

To orks, and other people/races/species that see them often enough, they are big gruff infantrymen, which is how most of us see them as they are a common army to us.

To everyone else who has only heard the stories, the fact that you'd likely never see but hear of their exploits, and the fact that if you do see one it's in power armor (which is rare to even IG) It's far taller than you (Standing a head or two above you), and it's only devotion is to kill the enemies of the emporer and heretics (Woe betide anyone who gets the Black Templars or Dark Angels at their home) They'd be religious demi-gods.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:This is also true, and it's why we have such weird sliding scales of Space Marine representation in general from "big gruff infantrymen" to "religious demi-gods"

To orks, and other people/races/species that see them often enough, they are big gruff infantrymen, which is how most of us see them as they are a common army to us.

To everyone else who has only heard the stories, the fact that you'd likely never see but hear of their exploits, and the fact that if you do see one it's in power armor (which is rare to even IG) It's far taller than you (Standing a head or two above you), and it's only devotion is to kill the enemies of the emporer and heretics (Woe betide anyone who gets the Black Templars or Dark Angels at their home) They'd be religious demi-gods.

Well, I meant more that, in some BL books and fluff stories, they act somewhat like normal humans and, while tough, aren't 1-man armies,, whereas in other books they are portrayed engaging foes literally hundreds, thousands or more times their number, often directly, and emerging victorious.

I think its this round a bout and undefined way that SM are portrayed that allow each of us to grab onto a faction and make it our own.

For myself, SW will still be space vikings regardless of the number entries that have "wolf" in their name.

They are an army of unique heros who all have their exploits written in prose on the walls of the Fang. They believe in the earth mother and her gifts. They honor those who fight with them in song and deed. They are not shackled by others rules that they themselves had no part in writing. Truly free adventures who go out to fight the good fight.

However, I can see why people might find everything I love about them as something to hate. We each have our perceptions of what SM are supposed to be and when fluff or books come out that contradict what we want SM to be we tend to not like them.

Myself, I hate all SM armies. I find their stoic representation limiting and quite frankly suicidal in a world where conflict rages at all time. But I'm more attracted to the idea of skirmishers instead of rank and file. And I see SW as the army of guys who fight the type of fight that I find attractive.

So yeah, in my personal fluff and cannon. Rune Priests harness the power of the earth mother and those who have come before them.

That and ultimately its just a setting that exists solely with in our imagination. And we are each allowed to imagine it as we see fit.

Vaktathi wrote:Since when?

Since always.

Gork and Mork are Chaos in your head? Where are their daemons? Where are their cultists? Where does anyone mention the four Ruinous Powers plus Gork and Mork?

Find one shred of evidence stating that everything in the Warp is part of Chaos.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Since when?

Since always.

Gork and Mork are Chaos in your head? Where are their daemons? Where are their cultists?

The entire Orkish race is their cultists. Just because it's a warp entity doesn't mean it *has* to have daemons.

Where does anyone mention the four Ruinous Powers plus Gork and Mork?

They don't, that doesn't mean they aren't still Chaos gods of their own, it just means that they aren't all-encompassing like the big 4 are. Gork and Mork draw their strength from, and pretty much only affect, Orks, they are the Orkish gestalt in the Warp, just as the Emperor does with humans. The big 4 draw from all races since their emanations are universal.

Find one shred of evidence stating that everything in the Warp is part of Chaos.

The fact that GW has said it is and uses the term interchangabely?

You're running into an issue of how Chaos is conventionally used as opposed to what it actually applies to. Chaos is the psychic energy that defines the warp, that's the exact phrasing GW has used to describe it. If it's drawing psychic power from anything, Chaos is inherently involved.

Vak, but is Chaos/Warp inherently evil or is it just a gateway. Thats more of a question for me. Yes, the corrupted Space Marines have Chaos there but they fell to the gods of Chaos. With conversations like this tend to end of philspohy(sp?) decussions.

In the 40k universe the Warp/Chaos is shaped by the unconscious minds of living beings (except Tau). The big four have their power because they're expressions of the most common mental states.

The Realm of Chaos is not innately evil, if everyone was focused on kindness and altruism then the expressions of the Warp would look like Mother Theresa. However I can't see us playing a game of "help the leper" so it's probably better that people are bad m'kay?

Jayden63 wrote:What I also find amusing is that people complain that all SMs are the same and none of them deserve their own codex. Yet here both novelists and codex writers are trying to make an SM faction that IS different. Works different, feels different, and is organized differently. Almost as if trying to make a different race and yet, get all this hate.

That's the thing, though, isn't it? "A different race." There are few things about the Wolves that actually scream "Space Marine" - in fact, few things that scream "Imperial force".

Of course, everyone will have his or her own opinion on the Space Marines and if they really need all their Codices. I'm a bit torn myself. I do not believe any Chapter needs its own Codex. Not because they aren't different enough (because they are - and I'm referring to the Black Templars and the Blood Angels now, not the extreme end of the scale, i.e. the Wolves), but because so many other Codices are put on the long bench because of them. There are so many Guard regiments that are just as varied and do not get their own Codex either, too. But of course this is also coming from someone whose army hasn't received a proper Codex since about a decade, so I won't claim that I am impartial on the subject.

My personal point, however, is that to be an Imperial force you have to conform to some standards. By constantly flipping all other Imperial organisations the finger, the Wolves make a mockery of the Imperium's oppressive image. Their excessive heroics let them appear like invulnerable warrior gods single-handedly saving the galaxy from damnation. They are a Chapter of Captain Americas in pelts. In short: with their whiteknighting and their untouchability they're trying to take the Grimdark out of "my" 40k. That's my reason for not liking them. Which is a shame, actually, because I do like their basic concept of "vikings in space". It's a real shame that it has been twisted into the current image.

Jayden63 wrote:But I can understand the wish for consistency, however, GW has proven that they are anything but consistent, so I'm not sure why this is such a big shock.

I don't think it's a shock - more like wishful thinking and continued disappointment.

Jayden63 wrote:GW fluff goes round and round like this because each book is written from the POV of one factor or another and I'm sure each BL author doesn't consult with all the others about every aspect they are writing to avoid cross fluff roadblocks.

That is correct.

"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

Me, I'm putting studio fluff above licensed products, since the consistency is a great deal more stable there (likely simply because it's largely the same pool of authors, plus unlike novel authors they actually talk to each other). This is just a personal choice, however, and merely one way to work with what we're given.

KewlImp wrote:Vak, but is Chaos/Warp inherently evil or is it just a gateway. Thats more of a question for me.

Aye, looking at the Eldar it does seem more like a neutral space, doesn't it? If daemons are the product of raw emotion, if Slaanesh was born by an orgasmic explosion of lust and depravity, then ... well, not all emotions are bad, are they?
In fact, my own pet theory for Living Saints hinges on the warp being able to produce more than just evil demons.

At the end of the day, however, the Imperium is still going to condemn anything that they think comes out of the warp. The Wolves just don't condemn themselves because they are apparently convinced they don't tap this source. But ... well ...

"Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

A good quote, to bad it's from someone who's so consistently awful at making codex's.

I have a few more from Andy Hoare and Aaron-Dembski Bowden, too, just in case I get into a discussion with someone who wants to tell me that their BL novel or FFG RPG trumps my Codex.

[edit]In fact ...

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

I think many a heated debate would be much less fierce if the general fandom would finally accept that "the notion of canon is a fallacy" and that it all comes down to individual interpretation.
And yes, that was another quote.

Jayden63 wrote:They believe in the earth mother and her gifts.

Heresy.

They are not shackled by others rules that they themselves had no part in writing.

Treason.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:A good quote, to bad it's from someone who's so consistently awful at making codex's.

Everything he has ever written is terrible. He never outgrew his angsty teenager phase.

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:And yet there is BL/novel cannon fluff where it states that Rune Priests seem to be a little more protected than other psychers. That there is something to their powers/defenses that is safer than your average practitioner.

(Don't ask me where this is, just look in one of the other score of SW hate threads. Someone has quoted/referenced it before)

O_o I don't recall that in any of the HH books, the SW trilogy, any SW codex or any previous edition fluff off the top of my head. Trying to do a search on something like that here would be a nightmare. I don't recall Rune Priests having any more protection than any other Librarian-esque figure.

The closest thing I can think of is in Thousand Sons, Ahriman notes that all of the various fetishes and bones and other tribal crap hanging from the Space Wolves' armor created a kind of protective haze around them. He then dismisses it as something encountered before in "other primitive cultures".

You guys should read "Prospero Burns" for the fluff. The Rune Priests ARE calling on the warp and they know it. But supposedly there are lines they are not supposed to cross.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:
My personal point, however, is that to be an Imperial force you have to conform to some standards. By constantly flipping all other Imperial organisations the finger, the Wolves make a mockery of the Imperium's oppressive image. ..... Which is a shame, actually, because I do like their basic concept of "vikings in space". It's a real shame that it has been twisted into the current image.

Vikings are - by nature - non-conformists. They do whatever the hell they want and murder anyone who gets in their way. So if you want an "imperial" force composed of Space Vikings, it has to be some kind of space marine since - as you say - guard cannot be non-conformist in an oppressive imperial regime. So the Space Wolves are born.

Their excessive heroics let them appear like invulnerable warrior gods single-handedly saving the galaxy from damnation. They are a Chapter of Captain Americas in pelts. In short: with their whiteknighting and their untouchability they're trying to take the Grimdark out of "my" 40k. That's my reason for not liking them.

You need to read the novels. They aren't saving the galaxy from anything. They're the emperor's most loyal chapter because THE EMPEROR is captain america and the SW follow strong personalities. Short of a direct order from the emperor, they do what they please - including flipping the finger to the Inquisition and the Sigilite.

And as for ruining your Grim-Dark, what period of actual human history is Darker or more Grim than "The Dark Ages". At time that was more or less punctuated by the threat of vicious viking raiders coming from the ocean at any moment to kill your entire clan?

-Loki- wrote:It's one of those things that just makes it easier from a gameplay perspective. The 5th edition Tyranid codex states that Tyranid psykers don't use the warp in any way we can understand, but manifest the will of the Hive Mind as their powers.

While it's dumb fluff (it's Cruddace, it's to be expected), they're still psychic powers for gameplay concerns. It makes it easier concerning, well, anything affecting psychic powers.

Orks psycers don't use the warp etheir they just shoot beam of pure orkishness out of every orofis, thats why they live away from othere orks in Weird huts so they don't get all doped up on orkishness!

Grugknuckle wrote:
Vikings are - by nature - non-conformists. They do whatever the hell they want and murder anyone who gets in their way. So if you want an "imperial" force composed of Space Vikings, it has to be some kind of space marine since - as you say - guard cannot be non-conformist in an oppressive imperial regime.

Umm...Savlar Chem dogs, Athonian tunnel rats, Kanak skull takers, etc?

And as for ruining your Grim-Dark, what period of actual human history is Darker or more Grim than "The Dark Ages". At time that was more or less punctuated by the threat of vicious viking raiders coming from the ocean at any moment to kill your entire clan?

When you take it and exaggerate it to the point of parody and tack on "wolf" to everything, it stops being grimdark.

DA SPEED FREEK wrote:

-Loki- wrote:It's one of those things that just makes it easier from a gameplay perspective. The 5th edition Tyranid codex states that Tyranid psykers don't use the warp in any way we can understand, but manifest the will of the Hive Mind as their powers.

While it's dumb fluff (it's Cruddace, it's to be expected), they're still psychic powers for gameplay concerns. It makes it easier concerning, well, anything affecting psychic powers.

Orks psycers don't use the warp etheir they just shoot beam of pure orkishness out of every orofis, thats why they live away from othere orks in Weird huts so they don't get all doped up on orkishness!

Must be fun not reading any fluff and just making stuff up!

No, Ork weirdboyz use the warp for their powers, and Gork and Mork are warp entities. They're actually more powerful than the Chaos gods.

The problem with fluff it's that yesterday it said something, today says another thing and we don't know what it'll say tomorrow.

I for one, on the miniature level, was always intrigued on how, except Njal, Rune Priests come without a Psychic Hood.

Dark wrote:The problem with fluff it's that yesterday it said something, today says another thing and we don't know what it'll say tomorrow.

I for one, on the miniature level, was always intrigued on how, except Njal, Rune Priests come without a Psychic Hood.

Because they don't think they're using the warp, they think they're using Fenris Space Magic. Why would they use one?

Not to mention psychic hoods aren't in their wargear options.

Grugknuckle wrote:Vikings are - by nature - non-conformists. They do whatever the hell they want and murder anyone who gets in their way.

You could say the same about the Mongol Horde, and yet the White Scars don't come across as rebellious that they'd actually seem more trouble for the Imperium than they're worth. It is not that hard to create a Space Marine Chapter that has a unique identity without violating Imperial decrees left and right to the point that the IoM stops looking like an oppressive regime.

See, it wouldn't actually be such a problem if there were consequences for these violations. Yet apparently the Imperial Navy doesn't care about the Space Wolves' slapping around the fleets of an entire Segmentum (lol), the Adeptus Terra doesn't care about the geneseed corruption, and the Inquisition doesn't care about the Wolves refusing to acknowledge their mandate. At least the Ecclesiarchy reacted to the murder of its priests, even if of course their reprisal was easily repelled (after all, a skeleton crew of SW was able to defend Fenris for years against millions upon millions of Guardsmen with orbital support - can't have them be beaten now by a measily few Orders of elite troops specialized on killing Marines, can we).

From how it looks to me, the Emperor's most loyal Chapter are the Ultramarines. At least they actually care what happens to the Imperium and cooperate with its Adepta rather than being on the verge of being declared traitors. Which, of course, will never happen, as the Wolves apparently have an endless supply of get out of jail free cards. I do not feel compelled to read their novels whatsoever - there's certainly enough silly stuff going on in the Codex material already; I don't need individual authors adding to it with their personal opinion.

But maybe you're right, maybe they aren't saving the galaxy, even if they apparently have the capacity of single-handedly conquering the Eye of Terror. But the Space Wolves truly seem more busy fighting Imperial forces than fighting the IoM's actual enemies.

Grugknuckle wrote:And as for ruining your Grim-Dark, what period of actual human history is Darker or more Grim than "The Dark Ages". At time that was more or less punctuated by the threat of vicious viking raiders coming from the ocean at any moment to kill your entire clan?

I'm fairly sure that the nations suffering from viking raids actually tried to defend themselves instead of rolling over dead because the vikings are so incredibly awesome.
Also, ironically the vikings only started replacing slavery with serfdom after they converted to Christianity. So the SW aren't even "real" vikings; they're neither evil enough nor are they adherents to the Imperial faith, they are just whiteknights showing everyone how awesome they are.

Matter of perception, of course. But that's just how it looks to me, after having read their Codex and of their appearances in other GW material.

Not sure if this was already posted as I am at work and dont have time to read through the whole thread. But in the HH novels it is specifically stated that "there are no wolves on Fenris." Yet the space wolves ride around on them and have them as attack buddies and play probably play fetch. They are probably nice wolves too, loyal and fun to be around.

THEY ARE DEAMON WOLVES.

How do they all miss this?? I get there are alot of people out there that love space wolves. Its just something about them really grinds my gears. Like they are too cool for school. "Oh we hate psykers" yet have sorts of psykic powers. Even Leman Russ himeself in the first hertic blast a bunch of thousand sons with a Psykic Scream. "Oh we hate the Chaos warp" yet the run around with deamon puppies.

I guess someone ligitamiz the Deamon wolf puppies they roll with. Do that for me.

too cool for school. thats how Space Wolves roll.

Didnt Leman Russ disapear into the eye of terror to go to a rave with Fulgrim?? Yeah, that happened.

Rant Over. That felt good.

Or perhaps (and it's a big perhaps) they tolerate the SW as long as they still think they're loyal and fight against chaos, more akin a "as long as they slap them and not us..."

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:And yet there is BL/novel cannon fluff where it states that Rune Priests seem to be a little more protected than other psychers. That there is something to their powers/defenses that is safer than your average practitioner.

I haven't encountered that, but in A Thousand Sons and Battle of the Fang they mention that the Space Wolves' runes and talismans are very powerful wards against sorcery, simply because of their belief.

As for SW powers, they're clearly from the warp, but they believe that they are tied to Fenris itself. People say its hypocritical, but we're also viewing it from an omnipotent standpoint. Every single Space Wolf grew up on Fenris with zero formal education until they were recruited by the chapter, and they hold an oral tradition in high regard. Really, it would make sense that they would hold some different, supposedly "barbaric" beliefs. And in the fluff, it also depends which era you're talking about - Heresy or 41st Millennium. In the HH they were very intolerant of sorcerers but were basically allowed free reign by the Emperor after Nikea. From reading the first couple books in the Ragnar series (which have been somewhat retconned, so I'm not sure if they're still accurate) in the 41st Millennium they seem to realize that the Rune Priests draw their power from the warp, although they are still wary about psykers in general.

Sidenote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:books in the Ragnar series (which have been somewhat retconned, so I'm not sure if they're still accurate)

The novels, licensed RPGs and even the Codices are in no way meant to "fit" into a consistent setting. Their authors are not required to coordinate with other writers or even stick closely to established GW fluff.

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

The novel is still as accurate ... as you want it to be. Yet just like anything else it will not be able to serve as "evidence" when the other side of the argument doesn't accept it for their own interpretation of the setting. I know, it sucks.

Lynata wrote:The novel is still as accurate ... as you want it to be. Yet just like anything else it will not be able to serve as "evidence" when the other side of the argument doesn't accept it for their own interpretation of the setting. I know, it sucks.

Good Form.

Sadly that is the official stance on the canon.

This is one of the things that I like about the Space Wolves - they're so nonconformist that they're borderline CSM, yet they're still loyal to a degree. Too bad with the allies rules SW and CSM can't pair up. Adding a squad of Khorne Berzerkers and saying that they were once Blood Claws who became so power hungry that they couldn't overcome the lure of chaos is plausible fluff.

Vaktathi wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:
Vikings are - by nature - non-conformists. They do whatever the hell they want and murder anyone who gets in their way. So if you want an "imperial" force composed of Space Vikings, it has to be some kind of space marine since - as you say - guard cannot be non-conformist in an oppressive imperial regime.

Umm...Savlar Chem dogs, Athonian tunnel rats, Kanak skull takers, etc?

Right. So then I guess the poster I was responding to is just plain wrong about imperial forces needing to be "conformist". Maybe he should play Tau instead.

And as for ruining your Grim-Dark, what period of actual human history is Darker or more Grim than "The Dark Ages". At time that was more or less punctuated by the threat of vicious viking raiders coming from the ocean at any moment to kill your entire clan?

When you take it and exaggerate it to the point of parody and tack on "wolf" to everything, it stops being grimdark.

StoneRaizer wrote:This is one of the things that I like about the Space Wolves - they're so nonconformist that they're borderline CSM, yet they're still loyal to a degree. Too bad with the allies rules SW and CSM can't pair up. Adding a squad of Khorne Berzerkers and saying that they were once Blood Claws who became so power hungry that they couldn't overcome the lure of chaos is plausible fluff.

I see Blood Angles as much more closer to Chaos than SW. Mephiston has the stats of a DP. The sanquinor comes and goes like a GD. They are all blood thirsty lunitics where they will all eventually fall to rage.

As for who the SW fight. They constantly defend the common man and all reaches of the IOM. They constantly engage the enemies of the Imperium and do so with honor and comradery with all who fight along their side. They only end up fighting against the IOM forces when they feel a grievous wrong on a humanitarian level has been committed or a faction of the IOM picks a fight with them first.

Even back in 3rd ed codex (never read the 2nd edition SW book) Rune Priests never had psychic hoods as wargear. Its always been a runic staff, or runic weapon (that pulled double duty), or wolf tail talisman.

Thank you.