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So they don't use psychic powers and use the "power of fenris" yet they're given specifically labelled psychic powers in 6th edition.
Hmmmph.

It was annoying as is when they were called "power of fenris" to begin with. Loop holes and such I had the fun of encountering when playing SoB with their save against powers in their last codex. It works when some librarians shoot lightning, but apparently doesn't if they change their name to rune priests and gain the added effect of wasting my time.

Perhaps fluffwise they have their own name for all of these powers. Which more or less appear to be psychic powers as normal, but with the wolves being stubborn with their fingers in their ears.

I think GW should break it to the wolves that they're actually drawing on the warp, and fenris is actually a giant hole in the warp.

Could, but it'd take away some of their "special snowflake" vibe all the marine chapters apparently need to function.

It's one of those things that just makes it easier from a gameplay perspective. The 5th edition Tyranid codex states that Tyranid psykers don't use the warp in any way we can understand, but manifest the will of the Hive Mind as their powers.

While it's dumb fluff (it's Cruddace, it's to be expected), they're still psychic powers for gameplay concerns. It makes it easier concerning, well, anything affecting psychic powers.

-Loki- wrote:It's one of those things that just makes it easier from a gameplay perspective. The 5th edition Tyranid codex states that Tyranid psykers don't use the warp in any way we can understand, but manifest the will of the Hive Mind as their powers.

While it's dumb fluff (it's Cruddace, it's to be expected), they're still psychic powers for gameplay concerns. It makes it easier concerning, well, anything affecting psychic powers.

Also says in the same book that they do use warp powers too... stupid nid dex contradicting itself and what not

Just to show you btw "Tapping into the warp isnt without its dangers" from zoanthropes, "unleashing a blast of pure warp energy" from the psy powers.. and "warp field" and also "warp lance" from the psy powers, they channel it through the hive mind but tis still useing the warp, i also find it funny that "tyranids dont use the warp in anyway we can understand" when you see eldar, space marines, orks and even imperial guard blasting stuff with warp powers... dumb book lol

I did say it's dumb fluff. This is the same guy that invented the Narvhal for them.

-Loki- wrote:I did say it's dumb fluff. This is the same guy that invented the Narvhal for them.

yeah and i agree with you 100% too

n0t_u wrote:Could, but it'd take away some of their "special snowflake" vibe all the marine chapters apparently need to function.

A cut above the rest, yet they don't have as many rivets as my orks. A small win in my mind

They could write it like they do WHFB Dwarfs. They don't use magic either, instead they inscribe weapons and armour with runes that give them magic-like properties. Mind you, giving a weapon +2 strength (for example) with a rune is a little more believable than summoning D6 lightning bolts from the sky, or spontaneously open a chasm in the ground underneath an opponent's feet.

I really don't understand all of the butt hurt that people seem to get on about when dealing with SW and their psychers.

Why can't people just let it go that they do do things differently. Its like people take things as a personal attack against themselves when dealing with this subject.

All of the SW powers with the exception of Fury of the Wolf spirits are elemental/nature based. Everything that happens can be found in nature by itself. And Fury of the wolf spirits has that Native American totem come fight for me vibe going for it.

Its not like their powers are modifying their bodies. Its not like they are giving them clairvoyance into the future events. Or even turning someone into something else on a biological level. You know stuff that would require and unknown and uber powerful source of energy (the warp).

Yes in game terms they are called psychic powers and follow the rules for psychic powers but thats just because its a game mechanic. How much more lube would people need if SW had to have their own mechanics, just because they do things differently.

Jayden63 wrote:All of the SW powers with the exception of Fury of the Wolf spirits are elemental/nature based. Everything that happens can be found in nature by itself. And Fury of the wolf spirits has that Native American totem come fight for me vibe going for it.

I think it comes down to whether or not people want to accept that there is "unexplainable space magic" in "their" setting or not. Usually, unnatural phenomena get explained via psychic powers, the warp and demonic influence - for a lot of people, myself included, there just isn't anything else.

And "doing stuff differently" just for the heck of it and as the sole exception to what seems like a general rule just isn't a good enough explanation for me. It would be different if we had accounts of other species using elemental/nature magic, or any sort of shamans in native populations. Yet whenever we read about the latter, it turns out he actually is a psyker.

Yes, maybe the Space Wolves are the one big exception from a rule that otherwise encompasses the entire galaxy. There are a lot of other rules the Space Wolves break, too. But it should be understandable that this trait makes them look like Special Snowflakes even amongst the Space Marines, and that people who like a certain degree of consistency do not appreciate such things.

Lynata wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:All of the SW powers with the exception of Fury of the Wolf spirits are elemental/nature based. Everything that happens can be found in nature by itself. And Fury of the wolf spirits has that Native American totem come fight for me vibe going for it.

I think it comes down to whether or not people want to accept that there is "unexplainable space magic" in "their" setting or not. Usually, unnatural phenomena get explained via psychic powers, the warp and demonic influence - for a lot of people, myself included, there just isn't anything else.

And "doing stuff differently" just for the heck of it and as the sole exception to what seems like a general rule just isn't a good enough explanation for me. It would be different if we had accounts of other species using elemental/natura magic, or any sort of shamans in native populations. Yet whenever we read about the latter, it turns out he actually is a psyker.

Yes, maybe the Space Wolves are the one big exception from a rule that otherwise encompasses the entire galaxy. There are a lot of other rules the Space Wolves break, too. But it should be understandable that this trait may not make them look good to people who value a certain degree of consistency.

Either that, or the Wolves are lying to themselves.

I'm going with that option, as all evidence points to it(the Thousand Sons even point it out in the HH novels that it's actually powered by the warp).

Platuan4th wrote:Either that, or the Wolves are lying to themselves.

Probably the best way to explain this if one wanted to merge mechanics with fluff, aye.
Space Marines are fallible, and it isn't very far-fetched to simply assume they'd refuse to see the truth if it really was psychic powers. Hubris is a trademark of the Imperium as a whole.

Multiple secondary sources make it very clear that rune priests ARE psykers, they just won't admit it. See A Thousand Sons and Battle of the Fang. Even the codex admits that it is a spark of psychic power. Wolves simply view it as a gift of Fenris. Hypocritical? Of course. What Imperial entity isn't prey to at least a bit of that?

KrimsunBaron wrote:So they don't use psychic powers and use the "power of fenris" yet they're given specifically labelled psychic powers in 6th edition.
Hmmmph.

The whole "Power of Fenris" thing is the Space Wolves deliberately being ignorant, as other said they are lying to themselves, and not wanting to confront/admit the real source of the power (while condemning others for essentially doing the same thing but not making up fairy tales about it), and they've always been psychic powers.

Lynata wrote:
Yes, maybe the Space Wolves are the one big exception from a rule that otherwise encompasses the entire galaxy. There are a lot of other rules the Space Wolves break, too. But it should be understandable that this trait makes them look like Special Snowflakes even amongst the Space Marines, and that people who like a certain degree of consistency do not appreciate such things.

What I also find amusing is that people complain that all SMs are the same and none of them deserve their own codex. Yet here both novelists and codex writers are trying to make an SM faction that IS different. Works different, feels different, and is organized differently. Almost as if trying to make a different race and yet, get all this hate.

Maybe things would be different if they were no longer space marines but say werewolves in space that was another T4 3+ save army. Just seems a little hypocritical on the side of gamers much like they accuse the wolves of being.

But I can understand the wish for consistency, however, GW has proven that they are anything but consistent, so I'm not sure why this is such a big shock.

Jayden63 wrote:
What I also find amusing is that people complain that all SMs are the same and none of them deserve their own codex. Yet here both novelists and codex writers are trying to make an SM faction that IS different. Works different, feels different, and is organized differently. Almost as if trying to make a different race and yet, get all this hate.

Primarily because they end up being "Marines+1" with better stats but pretty much identical wargear/vehicles/types of units/organization/etc, and aren't different enough that they couldn't be handled with a page or two of list modifications. It also doesn't help that their fluff, especially of late, has been...controversial in quality to put it lightly.

Maybe things would be different if they were no longer space marines but say werewolves in space that was another T4 3+ save army.

That's half the problem people have with them.

No. They hate sorcery. There's a substantial difference.

DarknessEternal wrote:No. They hate sorcery. There's a substantial difference.

Depends entirely on who is defining Sorcery at the time


The Black Templars would define just about anything Warp related as Sorcery, most SM's would declare any Xenos using psychic powers to be Sorcery, etc.

Oh how wrong you are Jayden. (I don't take it as a "personal attack" i'm just trying to establish some reasons why it could make sense to GW)


So when you said they don't use anything that changes them biologically because that would require warp energy then why to they have the biomacy psychic power?

I'm not fussing about their actual powers in the book. Even the JOTWW isn't anything like what could happen on the world.

Simples

Well, the Space Wolves define sorcery as using Chaos power. This does not include all warp-based power.

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, the Space Wolves define sorcery as using Chaos power. This does not include all warp-based power.

Well, what exactly is a Chaos power, given that Chaos is simply another term for the Warp? Chaos is not some distinct entity from the Warp, it's simply what it's referred to when the Warp does bad things.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Oh how wrong you are Jayden. (I don't take it as a "personal attack" i'm just trying to establish some reasons why it could make sense to GW)


So when you said they don't use anything that changes them biologically because that would require warp energy then why to they have the biomacy psychic power?

I'm not fussing about their actual powers in the book. Even the JOTWW isn't anything like what could happen on the world.

Simples

(I know this wasn't an attack on me)

Sadly, I didn't write the rules. Also sadly, I doubt the guy who did write the SW rules, had too much to say in the new psychic powers portion of the new rules. That is one of the problems with having too many writers. Or in this case too many projects for the few writers that they do have.

Also, google or youtube sink holes and tell me that isn't JOTWW in action. Land fissures don't happen just because of high explosives.

Vaktathi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, the Space Wolves define sorcery as using Chaos power. This does not include all warp-based power.

Well, what exactly is a Chaos power, given that Chaos is simply another term for the Warp? Chaos is not some distinct entity from the Warp, it's simply what it's referred to when the Warp does bad things.

That's entirely incorrect. Chaos is not the Warp, it merely is one of the "things" in the Warp.

In addition to other "gods", namely Eldar and Ork gods as well as the God Emperor of Mankind (which isn't necessarily the Emperor), the Warp also contains entities not under any of those headings, such as Enslavers and Watchers in the Dark.

But what the Warp mostly contains is raw energy, whatever that is.

Chaos and Warp are not synonymous.

That's not the fluff as it stands. There is no difference between psychic power and black magic, except in the mind of the practitioner. As always, belief makes all the difference.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, the Space Wolves define sorcery as using Chaos power. This does not include all warp-based power.

Well, what exactly is a Chaos power, given that Chaos is simply another term for the Warp? Chaos is not some distinct entity from the Warp, it's simply what it's referred to when the Warp does bad things.

That's entirely incorrect. Chaos is not the Warp, it merely is one of the "things" in the Warp.

In addition to other "gods", namely Eldar and Ork gods as well as the God Emperor of Mankind (which isn't necessarily the Emperor), the Warp also contains entities not under any of those headings, such as Enslavers and Watchers in the Dark.

But what the Warp mostly contains is raw energy, whatever that is.

Chaos and Warp are not synonymous.

The problem is they also don't condone any librarian or psyker user of the Imperium unless they've gone through the "Sons of Fenris" Rune priest methods, believing them to be heratics and witchcraft that's impure compared to the power of Fenris as they use the warp differently..

Basically, just big ol' hypocrites in that using Warp Power is okay if it's done by their method.

DarknessEternal wrote:
That's entirely incorrect. Chaos is not the Warp, it merely is one of the "things" in the Warp.

Since when?

In addition to other "gods", namely Eldar and Ork gods as well as the God Emperor of Mankind (which isn't necessarily the Emperor), the Warp also contains entities not under any of those headings, such as Enslavers and Watchers in the Dark.

But what the Warp mostly contains is raw energy, whatever that is.

Chaos and Warp are not synonymous.

hrm...

The Warp is a psychic dimension parallel to real space. It is known by many names: Warpspace, the Immaterium, the Empyrean, the Ether, the Sea of Souls, and also as the Realm of Chaos.

Warpspace is a dimension of random energy known as Chaos. It is the domain of the Gods of Chaos.

GW would seem to think otherwise.

And yet there is BL/novel cannon fluff where it states that Rune Priests seem to be a little more protected than other psychers. That there is something to their powers/defenses that is safer than your average practitioner.

(Don't ask me where this is, just look in one of the other score of SW hate threads. Someone has quoted/referenced it before)

I look at it like Biodisel and gasoline. Both with get a car from point A to point B and in pretty much the same fashion. However, the product going in and the product going out are very different.

Jayden63 wrote:And yet there is BL/novel cannon fluff where it states that Rune Priests seem to be a little more protected than other psychers. That there is something to their powers/defenses that is safer than your average practitioner.

(Don't ask me where this is, just look in one of the other score of SW hate threads. Someone has quoted/referenced it before)

O_o I don't recall that in any of the HH books, the SW trilogy, any SW codex or any previous edition fluff off the top of my head. Trying to do a search on something like that here would be a nightmare. I don't recall Rune Priests having any more protection than any other Librarian-esque figure.