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I concur with the idea you shouldn't bring logic and physics into 40k. You'd never stop finding problems. For example the earth's oceans pin down the continental plates into place so even if they could boil away, the planet would look more like Venus and everything on it would be swallowed up. The chances of having so many worlds in one galaxy with the right conditions to support human life would be absurd. The Leman russ and chimera tanks as they appear as models would just sit in one place with their tracks spinning, due to no ground clearance where the tracks sit whatsoever. Dreadnoughts would be a useless piece of junk with a centre of gravity way above it's centre. ...and so it goes on.

Glorioski wrote:I concur with the idea you shouldn't bring logic and physics into 40k. You'd never stop finding problems. For example the earth's oceans pin down the continental plates into place so even if they could boil away, the planet would look more like Venus and everything on it would be swallowed up. The chances of having so many worlds in one galaxy with the right conditions to support human life would be absurd. The Leman russ and chimera tanks as they appear as models would just sit in one place with there tracks spinning, due to no ground clearance whatsoever. Dreadnoughts would be a useless piece of junk with a centre of gravity way above it's centre. ...and so it goes on.

My thoughts exactly. I've said this before in the past: 40k isn't science fiction. Not even remotely. Its science fantasy. The former makes the improbable sound possible (a good example is Star Trek). The latter makes the impossible sound probable (a good non-40k example is Star Wars).

It doesn't matter if something is fantasy or hard science fiction. There are still internal rules to be kept to and 40K is meant to be the real world layered on top with the magic of the warp and comic book soft future physics. However the rest of the world in realspace is still generally operating according to the same familiar principles known in the real world. Planets orbit stars. Things don't randomly fall upwards. Humans need to eat to survive because they metabolize food to release its energy...etc... To say simply that 40K is science-fantasy and therefore no science or logical thinking should be applied is simply incorrect. Like any fictional universe, some suspension of disbelief is always needed to some extent, as is required even in "hard" science fiction universes, but suspension of disbelief does not equate to accepting every ridiculous thing.

Lord of the Rings is pure fantasy and yet that doesn't mean people can float wherever they want or that being hit with a sword doesn't hurt or cut flesh. Just because something is a fictional universe doesn't mean it becomes Loony Toons and anybody can write any ridiculous thing and expect it to be taken seriously. Someone couldn't claim a bolter blew up an entire planet and expect that to be accepted purely because "hey it's 40K and no rules of logic apply so I can write anything!"

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

Great. Just what we need. Instead of incomprehensible, inhuman, Lovecraftian horrors stalking the stars, we get textbook villains.

Tyranids already are "textbook villains". They're rip-offs from the Starship trooper bugs, who's only driving force for doing anything is "nomnomnom". Having a mindless lust for destruction is not "Lovecraftian".

BlaxicanX wrote:Tyranids already are "textbook villains". They're rip-offs from the Starship trooper bugs, who's only driving force for doing anything is "nomnomnom". Having a mindless lust for destruction is not "Lovecraftian".

Not completely. The novel Arachnids were actually civilized, the only reason they went to war with the Federation in the first place was because the Federation was encroaching on their territory - the Tyranids' only purpose is to devour everything in the galaxy. I can safely assume that if the Tyranids aren't stopped, not even the Powers of Chaos will survive.

I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Going on the 'tau as battle brothers' I would hazard a guess that the latter is probably the case.

Annnnd thread derailed. Can we keep to the discussion on new/changes to the background instead of discussing how Tyranids fair on weight watchers or whatnot.

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

What? Where? What page?

Arclaw wrote:I was most suprised to see a direct reference to the Squats by name, even though it's not much... After all the trouble they went to removing all the references to them..

WHERE

BlaxicanX wrote:

Lynata wrote:Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Shhhhhhhh, 40K fanboys get butthurt when you point out that Games Workshop copies all their concepts from other universes, too.

I think that is the best explanation, though. I think GW is definitely trying to make their factions have a lot more "depth" to them, starting with the Necrons, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did begin modeling Tyranids after the Zerg. Zerg are basically just more interesting Tyranids anyway.

So your theory is that GW is going to base the Tyranids on the Zerg which are themselves based on the Tyranids...go on...

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Exactly what I said, but also missing the point. How does one decide the strongest of the Hives, in this case?

Lynata wrote:In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Exactly what I said.

@Irancundus: Thank you for making sense. I know far too many people who believe "it's fantasy/sci-fi/fiction, therefore nothing applies". Which is absolutely absurd for all the reasons you stated. Everything does make sense, to a degree, in 40k. You don't get Librarians shooting lightning from their faces "just because" - they're explained by the existence of the Warp, which, by its nature, alters the laws of reality. The Warp is an enabling factor in many of the more impossible aspects of 40k that can't (or aren't) be handwaved with "technology so advanced we can't begin to explain" or even "nobody knows". Ork weapons, for example, make no sense - but are explained by the 'Waaagh!'. If ork weapons worked without an enabling pseudomagical factor, then sure, everything goes. But it doesn't. If it did, it's a writing nightmare - and then Marneus Calgar grew wings from nowhere and nobody thought it was daemonic in the slightest because spontaneous mutations are totally possible without any logical sense in the universe! Let's apply Earth logic to LoTR. No wonder the Nazgûl make no sense! You so derp! But the Nazgûl do make sense. In LoTR, such things are possible. In LoTR, there are enabling factors that are not present in the real world. In LoTR, mystical things are readily explained by mysticism being an integral part of the universe. They don't just simply exist; they're undead wraiths, turned into such by powerful magic and the like. The Nine didn't one day decide "Let's be wraiths for a bit, chaps!" and then they suddenly were.

So no, you can't say "logic doesn't apply". Logic always applies. Even magic in fiction (unless intended by the author to not) makes sense within the context of itself. As it follows that igniting something creates fire (logic), so too does it follow that casting a fire spell also creates fire - in settings where magic exists, of course. Sure, Dreadnoughts have an absurd design, but it's not impossible. We can assume (with LOGIC) that the high centre of mass is counteracted by some means. We can assume (with LOGIC) that they're not made of cheese and sunshine, and their guns don't fire laser plasma microwave LSD-beams that turn everyone into watermelons. And while we're at it, let's throw in some Sorcerers of Khorne and 20ft-tall Imperial Guardsmen.

Venerable Dreadnought-Brother Giganticus Maximillius of the Friendship Smiles Chapter wrote:
LET THE PROMETHIUM BURN THEM TO A MAGIC SPARKLY-FLOOF

Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

As a biologist, the Tyranid ability to generate 100% efficiency is a bit... silly, but then again, they generally only generate 100% biomass, not calories. They can and do get those from elsewhere, as stated previously. Although this doesn't explain how come they can still do it while stranded without a Fleet - I like to pretend that their bodies are just designed to be broken down again. It wouldn't necessarily be 90% energy loss, anyway, because real-world organisms are totally autonomous. Tyranids, on the other hand don't have reproductive systems, and it can be assumed that the rest of their physiology is similarly stripped-down. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually lacked digestive systems. The only thing we know they do have is a respiratory and circulatory system. Maybe Tyranid cannibalism is achieved through some special enzyme action which takes extraordinarily low energy to accomplish, or something.

However, never mind all these fancy 'could be' explanations - I think the more likely excuse is that the original author who came up with this concept fails basic biology forever.

Who thinks that Segmentum Pacificus' next fluff update will be "and then the Imperium Exterminatused every single world in it"? Because, you know, so grimdark (!!!) and trillions and trillions of humans (on one planet) all died in horrible agony (!!!) oh the grimdaaaark!(!!) And then their souls were eaten by Chaos because grimdark!!

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Nor do I, as too me, this doesn't make much sense. They are all part of one mind after all, why would they fight each over resources? Surely the Hivemind would be able advise one fleet to leave another alone and let it do it's own thing. I hope they don't do anything like that. It makes Tyranids less scary and less of a threat if you ask me. Countless billions of slavering creatures controlled by one conscious, devouring what ever gets in it's way becomes a many factioned, less coherent force that does what it wants. It's what made the Tyranids unique. Every other race has it's rebellious parts, as they have free thought, the Tyranids are one mind.

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

There's a small bit in the White Dwarf article on Behemoth when they released the Tervigon kit, saying unlike other Hive Fleets, Behemoth expended more biomass than it could replace since it just did a juggernaut push fighting all the way. This hints that a Hive Fleet likely doesn't even break even on taking a highly defended planet. Either that, or Behemoth wasn't particularly careful with its biomass and just expended it as fast as possible to win a planet.

You also need to consider that the worlds with major defenses from the major players in the galaxy likely don't represent the majority of the worlds in the galaxy (as you said, things we know to be true - even 1 million worlds in the galaxy is a pittance of what's actually out there). Taking a highly defended world might expend biomass, but be done to open up access to a system with half a dozen undefended worlds.

Tyranids certainly wouldn't number in the tens of millions of hive ships and trillions of smaller organisms if they couldn't keep up their rate of consumption with their rate of expenditure. Science may go against them, but again, yes, this is science fantasy. They state Tyranids have such huge numbers, assumptions need to be made as to how.

The assumption that the majority of the worlds in the galaxy are lightly defended is a plausible one - the Imperium only manages to hold a million worlds, and those are not all heavuly defended. The majority are thought safe and only garrisoned. Orks, while numerous, aren't the concentration of Octarius everywhere. Octarius and Armageddon are the exceptions, not the rule. Outside of Necrons, which are still waking up, no other major players hold a huge amount of planets, and definitely don't defend as many as heavily. There's currently an estimated 10 billion planets in starts habitable zones - and even uninhabitable planets are targets for them, since they take gases, minerals, etc. That's a lot of space for undefended planets for Tyranids to munch through while stmbling on the odd heavily defended system.

AustonT wrote:So your theory is that GW is going to base the Tyranids on the Zerg which are themselves based on the Tyranids...go on...

Aspects of the Tyranids are. Have you compared the visual designs from the very first Tyranids to Starcraft's Zerg, and then the new Tyranid designs? Consider it an "artistic cycle".
In the same vein, GW could have simply started to take more from the 'nids than before, now also extending to how they work.

This doesn't have to be the case, mind you (especially if this already happened before; I haven't heard of it but would not be surprised). I still think one can perfectly explain this with a hive-focused self preservation drive, which simply turns the bugs against another hive before they turn onto their own. An unintentional side-effect of their biology, but one that still works in their favour. Darwinism at work.

Tadashi wrote:I've said this before in the past: 40k isn't science fiction. Not even remotely. Its science fantasy. The former makes the improbable sound possible (a good example is Star Trek). The latter makes the impossible sound probable (a good non-40k example is Star Wars).

Meh, I always found Star Wars somewhat more "scientifical" than Star Trek. The latter has its own examples of mysticism, so the Force does not disqualify SW in this comparison. Star Trek is just better at "hiding" its artistic license with loads of technobabble that is meant to sound as if it makes sense, but really doesn't. We have examples of this in 40k and SW, too, though, even if not as many. "Depleted deuterium" bolter rounds anyone?

But still ... the writers of the German P&P RPG The Dark Eye once used the term "fantastic realism" to describe the setting. I think this applies to most other settings as well, just to varying degrees. 40k does have occasionally things that just boggle your mind, but most often it just has its own rules that are a mix of real world physics and its own laws (primarily concerning the existence of a "warp" and how it is connected to people's minds, I think). Of course, one could say that this is just because the writers are so used to / grounded in real world physics that they automatically let them flow into the writing, but the end result is the same. And last but not least, it is supposed to be the future of "our" universe, in a way.

-Loki- wrote:

Pacific wrote:I don't think it is ever specifically mentioned that the Tyranids get '100%' of their biomass back after an invasion? Why would it say such a thing?
I agree with Iracundus' sentiments; Yes this is Science fantasy, but that doesn't mean that we can just ignore examples of when the described events completely flaunt physical laws that we know to be true.

There's a small bit in the White Dwarf article on Behemoth when they released the Tervigon kit, saying unlike other Hive Fleets, Behemoth expended more biomass than it could replace since it just did a juggernaut push fighting all the way. This hints that a Hive Fleet likely doesn't even break even on taking a highly defended planet. Either that, or Behemoth wasn't particularly careful with its biomass and just expended it as fast as possible to win a planet.

You also need to consider that the worlds with major defenses from the major players in the galaxy likely don't represent the majority of the worlds in the galaxy (as you said, things we know to be true - even 1 million worlds in the galaxy is a pittance of what's actually out there). Taking a highly defended world might expend biomass, but be done to open up access to a system with half a dozen undefended worlds.

Tyranids certainly wouldn't number in the tens of millions of hive ships and trillions of smaller organisms if they couldn't keep up their rate of consumption with their rate of expenditure. Science may go against them, but again, yes, this is science fantasy. They state Tyranids have such huge numbers, assumptions need to be made as to how.

The assumption that the majority of the worlds in the galaxy are lightly defended is a plausible one - the Imperium only manages to hold a million worlds, and those are not all heavuly defended. The majority are thought safe and only garrisoned. Orks, while numerous, aren't the concentration of Octarius everywhere. Octarius and Armageddon are the exceptions, not the rule. Outside of Necrons, which are still waking up, no other major players hold a huge amount of planets, and definitely don't defend as many as heavily. There's currently an estimated 10 billion planets in starts habitable zones - and even uninhabitable planets are targets for them, since they take gases, minerals, etc. That's a lot of space for undefended planets for Tyranids to munch through while stmbling on the odd heavily defended system.

I think people are misunderstanding the issue here. Getting back 100% of the energy content expended is impossible due to thermodynamics, but this is for a closed system. Planets and the Tyranid consumption ecosystem are not closed systems. There are energy inputs from the sun and from geothermal sources.

However, science also shows the staggering amount of resources gained from just an agri-world. From the old Sherman Bishop WD article:

...

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

Ponder for a moment the amount of energy that can be extracted from such resources. The Imperium and even the Orks are not really extracting the energy content of the entire planet's soil, atmosphere, and oceans beyond the most superficial amounts through farming and fishing. The Tyranids don't need to care about sustainability for a planet because they strip everything. Topsoil has no particular value to the Imperial war machine. Even growing crops on it takes time, whereas we know from the Codex Tyranids that Tyranid flora has accelerated growth and reproduces rapidly (depleting the soil in the process) in order to be harvested in successive waves by Rippers. The Tyranids thus accomplish rapid extraction of the nutrient and energy content of soil and lands not usable by the Imperium. This means the wastelands and uninhabited areas of worlds are not as easily exploited by other races compared to the Tyranids.

Just one lightly defended world like an agri-world can yield enormous return for the Tyranids. In fact, that is exactly what the splinter fleets of Kraken are said to be doing in previous Tyranid codices. They have bypassed the main heavily defended planets and are picking off random isolated worlds. The average lightly populated agri-world is unlikely to be able to hold out without support, and this is often not available in time.

Lynata wrote:Aspects of the Tyranids are. Have you compared the visual designs from the very first Tyranids to Starcraft's Zerg, and then the new Tyranid designs? Consider it an "artistic cycle".

I have compared them, and aside from the Ravener being a very obvious Hydralisk impersonation, there's very little similarity between Tyranids and comparitive Zerg units. 'Bug-like with chitin and claws' isn't enough to claim either company is copying each other. Even the large quadrupedal units, which would be the easiest to draw comparisons between (Ultralisk compared to Heirophants, Tervigons, Tyrannofexes) show no similarities other than being large quadrupedal bugs with, again, armour and chitin.

Mr Morden wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

I don't want to sound like I'm being facetious, but can you remember which codex Mr Morden? In my own mind this concept of Nids turning on each other is a completely new spin on the background, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can point out something I have missed!

Iracundus wrote:I think people are misunderstanding the issue here. Getting back 100% of the energy content expended is impossible due to thermodynamics, but this is for a closed system. Planets and the Tyranid consumption ecosystem are not closed systems. There are energy inputs from the sun and from geothermal sources. [...]

Yeah - and who says they would need to get back 100% from eating themselves, anyways? It's not a matter of the Tyranids being a biological perpetuum mobile, but rather that in times of need they consume themselves in order to sustain the hive long enough until they reach another external food source, at which time the swarm will start growing again.
Hell, the human body does this, too.

If two hives attacking each other is a sign of nutrient starvation or simple Darwinism - with the stronger swarm "assimilating" the weaker one's biomatter and using it to breed more creatures of the superior strain - is debatable, but I believe both ideas have some merit.

-Loki- wrote:and aside from the Ravener being a very obvious Hydralisk impersonation [...]

That's what I meant, yes. I'm no expert on neither Tyranids nor Zerg, so I was unable to cough up the names myself (and too lazy googling for them )

Pacific wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:

Pacific wrote:
Also, I remember no mention of Tyranids fighting each other - ever. The only time this might happen is if the Tyranid hive-mind control has been somehow blocked, and they revert to their basic instincts. Is there the possibility that they may be trying to introduce more 'character' (as with the Necrons), or it is just a fluff justification for players having Tyranid on Tyranid battles?

Not got my books with me but IIRC there were mentions in previous Tryanid Codexes of worlds where they were fighting each other.

I don't want to sound like I'm being facetious, but can you remember which codex Mr Morden? In my own mind this concept of Nids turning on each other is a completely new spin on the background, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can point out something I have missed!

It's in the 3rd ed nid codex. Hive fleets compete with each other as a roundabout way of reorganising biomass and strengthening by effectively cross breeding. There's supposedly no loss to the nids from this because of the 100% thing.

Iracundus wrote:

Omegus wrote:Yes, let's apply Earth biology to extragalactic insectoid monsters.

It's not a matter of just one planet's biology but one of thermodynamics. There is and can never be 100% efficiency in any form of process or energy conversion. Even if one gives the Tyranids some greater efficiency compared to Earth's biology, they can never reach 100%.

Yes, lets apply Earth biology and physics to extragalactic insectoid monsters in a universe where your dreams and nightmares manifest and try to eat your soul.

This is starting to sound a lot more than stupid.

The ability of Titans and Heirophants to support their own weight.
Your argument is invalid.

Frozen Ocean wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't buy the concept of the Tyranids fighting each other for resources. It's apart of Tyranid psychology to eat itself -they do it every time they conquer a planet- thus if they actually "fought" each other that would imply that one side of the Tyranids would be trying to not get eaten. That goes against the Tyranid concept. Tyranids eating Tyranids would basically just be one force dunking itself into a gestation pool of its own volition while the other force waited to eat.

Exactly what I said, but also missing the point. How does one decide the strongest of the Hives, in this case?

Lynata wrote:In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Exactly what I said.

@Irancundus: Thank you for making sense. I know far too many people who believe "it's fantasy/sci-fi/fiction, therefore nothing applies". Which is absolutely absurd for all the reasons you stated. Everything does make sense, to a degree, in 40k. You don't get Librarians shooting lightning from their faces "just because" - they're explained by the existence of the Warp, which, by its nature, alters the laws of reality. The Warp is an enabling factor in many of the more impossible aspects of 40k that can't (or aren't) be handwaved with "technology so advanced we can't begin to explain" or even "nobody knows". Ork weapons, for example, make no sense - but are explained by the 'Waaagh!'. If ork weapons worked without an enabling pseudomagical factor, then sure, everything goes. But it doesn't. If it did, it's a writing nightmare - and then Marneus Calgar grew wings from nowhere and nobody thought it was daemonic in the slightest because spontaneous mutations are totally possible without any logical sense in the universe! Let's apply Earth logic to LoTR. No wonder the Nazgûl make no sense! You so derp! But the Nazgûl do make sense. In LoTR, such things are possible. In LoTR, there are enabling factors that are not present in the real world. In LoTR, mystical things are readily explained by mysticism being an integral part of the universe. They don't just simply exist; they're undead wraiths, turned into such by powerful magic and the like. The Nine didn't one day decide "Let's be wraiths for a bit, chaps!" and then they suddenly were.

So no, you can't say "logic doesn't apply". Logic always applies. Even magic in fiction (unless intended by the author to not) makes sense within the context of itself. As it follows that igniting something creates fire (logic), so too does it follow that casting a fire spell also creates fire - in settings where magic exists, of course. Sure, Dreadnoughts have an absurd design, but it's not impossible. We can assume (with LOGIC) that the high centre of mass is counteracted by some means. We can assume (with LOGIC) that they're not made of cheese and sunshine, and their guns don't fire laser plasma microwave LSD-beams that turn everyone into watermelons. And while we're at it, let's throw in some Sorcerers of Khorne and 20ft-tall Imperial Guardsmen.

Venerable Dreadnought-Brother Giganticus Maximillius of the Friendship Smiles Chapter wrote:
LET THE PROMETHIUM BURN THEM TO A MAGIC SPARKLY-FLOOF

Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

As a biologist, the Tyranid ability to generate 100% efficiency is a bit... silly, but then again, they generally only generate 100% biomass, not calories. They can and do get those from elsewhere, as stated previously. Although this doesn't explain how come they can still do it while stranded without a Fleet - I like to pretend that their bodies are just designed to be broken down again. It wouldn't necessarily be 90% energy loss, anyway, because real-world organisms are totally autonomous. Tyranids, on the other hand don't have reproductive systems, and it can be assumed that the rest of their physiology is similarly stripped-down. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually lacked digestive systems. The only thing we know they do have is a respiratory and circulatory system. Maybe Tyranid cannibalism is achieved through some special enzyme action which takes extraordinarily low energy to accomplish, or something.

However, never mind all these fancy 'could be' explanations - I think the more likely excuse is that the original author who came up with this concept fails basic biology forever.

Who thinks that Segmentum Pacificus' next fluff update will be "and then the Imperium Exterminatused every single world in it"? Because, you know, so grimdark (!!!) and trillions and trillions of humans (on one planet) all died in horrible agony (!!!) oh the grimdaaaark!(!!) And then their souls were eaten by Chaos because grimdark!!

I know I'll be derailing the thread even more, but as a physicist and a biologist I need to say this. Thermodynamics aside, the 100% biomass theory is also very bad and wasteful. The reason things in the universe works is because in general things want to be in the lowest energy state. Reactions take advantage of this situation to move a living body (think of using the energy collected from a ball rolling down a hill to move your body). That is why there are energy diagrams, having stable and meta-stable states of a compound. Making a biomass soup would actually consume more energy than it's worth because it would be like rolling the ball manually uphill again. The energy input does not equal the energy output due to friction. In biology this friction would be the binding energies of the chemical reaction. It'll take more energy to break the bonds of a chemical or protein then it would release when chemicals form.

So in terms of physics and biology (they're both the same thing. One explains on a macroscopic level while the other explains on the microscopic level) both are very inefficient. You would need a planet and then some's worth of energy just to digest one planet. That's why solar powered photosynthetic Tyranids sound awesome. They get the unadulterated version of energy in its purest form.

Okay that's my two cents. Also is anyone surprised that The picture of Earth (158 in collector's edition) look very clean and not very grimdarky? And it looks like a semi-decent place to live.

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

**Of course, occasionally terrible writers violate the game's established internal logic, and then just explain it away with "oh, all fiction is alternate realities completely up to the author to interpret", so there is some version of 40K where terminators surf on rhinos and do backflips, and there are versions of 40K where Draigo exists.

I just wanna point it out there that after a successful Tyranid invasion of a planet "reclamation pools" start appearing, and as far as i know if you arnt an important bug you are supposed to get inside of it and be "reclaimed."

So think of biomass like solent green, can be used for anything!

Omegus wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim. If the 40K universe has no logic, then literally anything can be said and nothing can be said to make more sense than anything else, as they will all be just purely arbitrary choices. That is precisely what others have tried to state earlier, that trying to apply logic to science fiction or science fantasy is pointless and that anything whatsoever can be made up.

Dark Eldar and Salamanders allying to take Terra and kill the Emperor? Sure why not? Bolters shooting flowers? Sure. Claiming only "some" logic applies is a arbitrary distinction. There is no a priori reason why gravity existing is any more reasonable to apply over the Dark Eldar and Salamanders being best buddies. Heck, why not have normal humans able to benchpress a Titan? After all as others have said earlier in this thread, no point applying real world physics and science to a made up world right?

The existence of internal rules is necessary to prevent settings from becoming nonsensical. While the Tyranids as space faring aliens using only biotechnology are capable of accomplishing tasks that life on Earth cannot do, they are still generally stated to be operating only normal biological lines. While the exact mechanism of how they accomplish these feats is not elaborated, there is no indication that the Tyranids are free from the constraints of realworld physics anymore than humans in 40K are.

Iracundus wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Frozen Ocean wrote:
Saying that logic does not apply means that all the fan-rage over things like "a Space Marine wouldn't do that! They hate Eldar!" or what-have-you is totally meaningless. If logic doesn't apply, then everything goes. Not a few things which are hypocritically selected out of favour. For example, if there's no logic, why can't Dark Eldar and Salamanders be epic best buddies? There's no logic to state anything against it, after all.

This is, of course, a red herring of an argument. As an educated individual, you really should be ashamed for even attempting it.

The setting has its own internal rules and logic that precludes things like "Dark Eldar and Salamanders being epic best buddies"**. That's very different from applying real-world science to made-up fantasy biotechnology made up by writers who often barely qualify as sentient, much less qualified in the sciences. Certain real-world logic must of course apply to maintain some semblance of sanity and suspension of disbelief (gravity, for example), but getting all anal about something as specific as Tyranid biology is frankly foolish.

It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim. If the 40K universe has no logic, then literally anything can be said and nothing can be said to make more sense than anything else, as they will all be just purely arbitrary choices. That is precisely what others have tried to state earlier, that trying to apply logic to science fiction or science fantasy is pointless and that anything whatsoever can be made up.

Dark Eldar and Salamanders allying to take Terra and kill the Emperor? Sure why not? Bolters shooting flowers? Sure. Claiming only "some" logic applies is a arbitrary distinction. There is no a priori reason why gravity existing is any more reasonable to apply over the Dark Eldar and Salamanders being best buddies. Heck, why not have normal humans able to benchpress a Titan? After all as others have said earlier in this thread, no point applying real world physics and science to a made up world right?

The existence of internal rules is necessary to prevent settings from becoming nonsensical. While the Tyranids as space faring aliens using only biotechnology are capable of accomplishing tasks that life on Earth cannot do, they are still generally stated to be operating only normal biological lines. While the exact mechanism of how they accomplish these feats is not elaborated, there is no indication that the Tyranids are free from the constraints of realworld physics anymore than humans in 40K are.

As a physicist and a biologist I need to say this. Thermodynamics aside, the 100% biomass theory is also very bad and wasteful

No actually you did not need to say it. In fact the only reason YOU care is because YOU are a physicist and a biologist. You are applying real world science to a made up science fantasy table top war game fluff written by British writers far less educated on the subject than you yet you are annoyed by their lack of scientific accuracy? lol come on You started and ended your own argument on the matter with real world scientific logic... which might still not apply to how tyranids thermodynamics or biology work... why? simply because the GW developers say so. But hey glad you spent all that time figuring that all out and derailing this thread on irrelevant knowledge to the current new fluff for the 6th ed rule book of warhammer 40k.

By the way I’m a biologist too and while your figuring all that stuff about how fictional biological forms metabolize and develop… I’m going to be over here rolling dice, drinking a beer, and looking at how cool these MODELS look. I'll worry about crunching those numbers in the lab during working hours on stuff thats real.

Long story short lets drop the bs and stay on topic. I personally like the direction there going with the fluff, has a lot more 2nd and 3rd edition feel to it. And as previously stated there are lots of reasons why the tyranids could be eating each other, but I personally don’t believe it’s division in the Hive Mind or hive fleets as win or lose the Hive Mind always wins in these little skirmishes.

Iracundus wrote:It is not a red herring in the least. It is the endpoint consequence of disallowing the application of any logic as other previous posters have tried to claim.

I think you people are talking past each other.

Applying "logic" as in contemporary real world scientific findings and understanding to 40k may not work at all times.
Applying "logic" as an in-setting element should always work, because the setting has its own rules which it should strive to keep to.

Basically, it's an external logic <-> internal logic thing.

Though I have to say, there are very few things blatantly dismissing real world logic in 40k. Mostly they just introduce a new element into the equation, such as the existence of psychic powers. Or the potential existence of "gravitic energy dampers" for those huge Titans, given that Codex material already stated the IoM occasionally puts these into power armour to make them lighter.

Lynata wrote:
Kind of like a simple machine script:
1. eat any non-Tyranids
2a. unless additional biomass is required for upkeep, go back to 1
2b. if no non-'nids are present, eat 'nids from a hive that isn't yours
3. if no other hive is present ,eat yourself

Essentially, the hivemind's self-preservation preventing its organisms from consuming themselves before consuming another hive. In a way, this could even work in favour of the greater self of the Tyranids - the strong weeding out the weak, using their biomass to further improve the superior strain? Mayhaps it could help looking at certain ant species.

Just an attempt at justifying stuff - often times, things conflicting at first can be explained by conjuring excuses that at least partially draw upon the existing fluff. How far you want to go with this (meaning the point where any excuse will just look silly) is a matter of personal interpretation and preferences; we all have our own thresholds where it just becomes too much.

Alternatively, maybe GW just likes the idea of Kerrigan's Swarm War. Given the Tyranid Redesign, it wouldn't be the first time they copy something from Blizz back. In this case, brace yourselves for Newnid Hiveminds with personalities like the Necron Lords.

Older 'nid Codex have talked about Hive fleety fighting Hive fleet to weed out weaker fleets or just to run battle simulations. I mean really, what general would not love to be able to run full out live fire simulations to to test tactics? And in the case of a Hive Fleet, not only can it do so, but it does not even loose any resources to do it.

Newnid Hiveminds??!!???! What a revolting development that would be.