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ZebioLizard2 wrote:

xttz wrote:I have a feeling Necrons will be FOTM, at least until more Skyfire options appear. It's possible to spam basically nothing but warriors (with glancing gauss attacks buffed by the rapid fire changes) and many flyers (which need 6's to hit and act as very fast transports).

Until they hit a flying nid or flying daemons army, a bloodthirster cares not for your flyers and will vector strike them till they explode.

So you're saying that some lists aren't effective against other lists written specifically to counter them? Who knew! Isn't the definition of an unbalanced list one that you can't beat without tailoring your own list for?

Flying MC's can only vector-strike 1 target per turn, and generally cost more than most regular flyers. Without tailoring a list specifically there's unlikely to be more than 2 of them around, and flyers with Skyfire will just as much damage back. The same applies to IG... that lone Hydra will be strafed to death on turn 2.

Alll of this is moot however, because while 3 of these armies can field some form of counter, that still leaves another dozen army books with far less effective options (outside of allies). Until GW release more new shinies of course...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

It lists Flakk missiles in the main rulebook but says they will be an optional upgrade in future codexes. They're not in any of the current books so noone can take them at present.

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

So above or below pre-5th FAQ black templars?

I'd say above Pre-FAQ, but still a kick at a wounded army. Our troops are still of pretty questionable usefulness for anything other than objective camping. Losing rerolls hurt us to our core, as Rage only works if you're aggressive. Rerolls in CC let's you take a charge statistically as well as Space Wolves, whereas now we're more or less Orks in Power Armour.

On the plus side, our Power Fists aren't on Sergeants, so no challenges to eat it.

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

xttz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

It lists Flakk missiles in the main rulebook but says they will be an optional upgrade in future codexes. They're not in any of the current books so noone can take them at present.

Just re-read that, you're right.

Still, we're basically a Marine Codex away from Fliers being no where near as good as they look now. Basically I know I won't go drop a couple hundred dollars buying and spend the hours painting fliers just for them to become easy targets for every Dev squad with 4 ML.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

xttz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

It lists Flakk missiles in the main rulebook but says they will be an optional upgrade in future codexes. They're not in any of the current books so noone can take them at present.

Just re-read that, you're right.

Still, we're basically a Marine Codex away from Fliers being no where near as good as they look now. Basically I know I won't go drop a couple hundred dollars buying and spend the hours painting fliers just for them to become easy targets for every Dev squad with 4 ML.

I thought it was another option for ML, like for the frag and krak rounds. It makes more sense like that.
Hasn't it been FAQ'd yet?

Won't tyranids be unbelievably strong in the situation of challenges? I've had a warrior prime destroy a lone wolf with power sword and storm shield in close combat before the lonewolf could even react.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

xttz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

It lists Flakk missiles in the main rulebook but says they will be an optional upgrade in future codexes. They're not in any of the current books so noone can take them at present.

Just re-read that, you're right.

Still, we're basically a Marine Codex away from Fliers being no where near as good as they look now. Basically I know I won't go drop a couple hundred dollars buying and spend the hours painting fliers just for them to become easy targets for every Dev squad with 4 ML.

I thought it was another option for ML, like for the frag and krak rounds. It makes more sense like that.
Hasn't it been FAQ'd yet?

Nope. It's an option that COULD be available for missile launchers, depending on codex. As yet, no codex has it. We can assume that the new Imperial codexes will have access to it.

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

Yes, they do that...by writing a new codex. The FAQ is not a codex; its purpose is not to completely rewrite the old codex to be 6th compliant. Its merely to make the old rules compliant with 6th ed in order to avoid any misunderstandings or manipulation of loopholes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

xttz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

It lists Flakk missiles in the main rulebook but says they will be an optional upgrade in future codexes. They're not in any of the current books so noone can take them at present.

Just re-read that, you're right.

Still, we're basically a Marine Codex away from Fliers being no where near as good as they look now. Basically I know I won't go drop a couple hundred dollars buying and spend the hours painting fliers just for them to become easy targets for every Dev squad with 4 ML.

I thought it was another option for ML, like for the frag and krak rounds. It makes more sense like that.
Hasn't it been FAQ'd yet?

Nope. It's an option that COULD be available for missile launchers, depending on codex. As yet, no codex has it. We can assume that the new Imperial codexes will have access to it.

Well, that's silly. They could have at least added that option into the FAQs.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, that's silly. They could have at least added that option into the FAQs.

Sup, we added flyers. They're 6s to hit, unless you have an imperial codex, in which case you already have missile launchers and can pretty much ignore them.
I'd be pretty unfair to non-Imperials.

Testify wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, that's silly. They could have at least added that option into the FAQs.

Sup, we added flyers. They're 6s to hit, unless you have an imperial codex, in which case you already have missile launchers and can pretty much ignore them.
I'd be pretty unfair to non-Imperials.

Yeah, ok, you have a point there.
Just wanted some consistency, you know?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Unfortunately not by the looks of it. First it looks like Tau, than DA, and Chaos in the mix of those two, since all the rumors for the starter set came out, the out look for a BT codex in the coming years is poor. If we're lucky we'll get it late 2013.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Unfortunately not by the looks of it. First it looks like Tau, than DA, and Chaos in the mix of those two, since all the rumors for the starter set came out, the out look for a BT codex in the coming years is poor. If we're lucky we'll get it late 2013.

Oh wow...that really sucks.
I thought it was just after chaos. Derpy me

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

Yes, they do that...by writing a new codex. The FAQ is not a codex; its purpose is not to completely rewrite the old codex to be 6th compliant. Its merely to make the old rules compliant with 6th ed in order to avoid any misunderstandings or manipulation of loopholes.

Tell me more about how they release a new codex for every army every edition. 8 )
But yes that's exactly that. the FAQ COULD update codices, but it doesn't..
(ok, in a way it does that allready, like taking wargear away from tau because it makes space marines look bad... B | )

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

Yes, they do that...by writing a new codex. The FAQ is not a codex; its purpose is not to completely rewrite the old codex to be 6th compliant. Its merely to make the old rules compliant with 6th ed in order to avoid any misunderstandings or manipulation of loopholes.

Tell me more about how they release a new codex for every army every edition. 8 )
But yes that's exactly that. the FAQ COULD update codices and in a way it does that allready (like taking wargear away from tau because it makes space marines look bad... B | )

It depends, how long after the edition are we talking about? I've been waiting for an necron update for 10 years (And I finally got it.) xD

But yeah, the wait sucks, but in the end its usually pretty awesome. I'd rather have a proper codex than some last minute FAQ. Just ask any SoB player.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

Yes, they do that...by writing a new codex. The FAQ is not a codex; its purpose is not to completely rewrite the old codex to be 6th compliant. Its merely to make the old rules compliant with 6th ed in order to avoid any misunderstandings or manipulation of loopholes.

Tell me more about how they release a new codex for every army every edition. 8 )
But yes that's exactly that. the FAQ COULD update codices and in a way it does that allready (like taking wargear away from tau because it makes space marines look bad... B | )

It depends, how long after the edition are we talking about? I've been waiting for an necron update for 10 years (And I finally got it.) xD

But yeah, the wait sucks, but in the end its usually pretty awesome. I'd rather have a proper codex than some last minute FAQ. Just ask any SoB player.

yea that is true.
(I'm waiting for tau 6 years now and i hope it will be equally awesome^^)
but yea, some minor point adjustments, and additional rules here and there with every FAQ would solve a lot of problems,
but appearently GW is just to lazy to do that.. ><

I mean, imagin a pc game that never gets a balance update.. XD

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IPS wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Odinson wrote:As a Black Templar player this rule book has made playing my army a living hell. Before the rule FAQs were released I was happy, having my infantry and walkers able to re-roll failed hits and wounds on a roll of a 1 was almost OP! I was supprised to see that my team would be getting such a boon. However reading over the FAQ made me want to cry, completely loosing any re-rolls and just getting an additional +1 to attach on the charge.

As a team which is completely unable to use any magic or magic-ish (Necrons) skills I would like to have something to make up for it.

My Emperor's Champion is now muchless powerful than before, and he doesn't count as a warlord either! So I HAVE to take him in my army and then have to dish out for a Marshal/Castallian if I want to gain access to warlord traits.

Fail!

Oh and here's the link to the FAQ page if anyone is interested.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Dude...you do realize that you are getting a new codex, right? I mean, the BT dex should be right around the corner.
No reason to rip apart a rule set that's only 3 days old...

Dude...you do realise that this is no excuse for GWs inability to properly update old codices so that they fit new editions?...
(and don't tell me it would be impossible to do so -.-)

Yes, they do that...by writing a new codex. The FAQ is not a codex; its purpose is not to completely rewrite the old codex to be 6th compliant. Its merely to make the old rules compliant with 6th ed in order to avoid any misunderstandings or manipulation of loopholes.

And yet they felt the need to aim some kicks at Black Templars in the FAQ, just because.

Just be happy you're not playing Eldar.

mercury14 wrote:Just be happy you're not playing Eldar.

Well with the nerf to pyscic hoods they have free reign over the battlefield and are the only ones with protection from Perils.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

xttz wrote:I have a feeling Necrons will be FOTM, at least until more Skyfire options appear. It's possible to spam basically nothing but warriors (with glancing gauss attacks buffed by the rapid fire changes) and many flyers (which need 6's to hit and act as very fast transports).

Until they hit a flying nid or flying daemons army, a bloodthirster cares not for your flyers and will vector strike them till they explode.

IIRC, (my rulebook is currently held up by my entire country taking a day off work!), Flying MC's only need to be hit and then they're forced to test for grounding, making them alot easy to shoot down than proper flyers. And you have to test per squad that shoots you, meaning that with a concentrated effort, anyone can bring your gribblies down with just basic guns. (again, no book due to national holiday, so please correct me if I'm wrong!)

If that's the case, then Daemons & 'Nids are seriously weaker than anyone who can spam proper flyers. (Necrons & IG - I'm looking squarely at you guys!)

Overall, I think flyer spam is really going to hurt for the first little while, at least until GW faq's things up and gives everyone some decent anti-air defenses that don't 100% require you to take allies. (because 1 squadron of Hydras isn't going to cut it!)

Testify wrote:

mercury14 wrote:Just be happy you're not playing Eldar.

Well with the nerf to pyscic hoods they have free reign over the battlefield and are the only ones with protection from Perils.

Yeah. And Runes of Warding will make it a huge pain for other armies' psykers.

But Eldar don't have assault vehicles so they have to disembark their CC units and spend a turn out in the open. Then get shot a second time the following turn during overwatch. And that just doesn't work for T3, low-armor models in a game with nerfed cover.

Wave Serpents went from pretty good to dismally pathetic. No ramps and fast skimmers moving fast still have WS1 and are pathetically easy to kill in CC. Falcons and Night Spinners are completely broken now too. And their infantry shuriken weapons are so far behind the curve now that DAs suck and Guardians are completely unplayable.

And our psykers only have access to two disciplines? And Farseers are level 1 psykers? And they nerfed their witchblades too? WTF??? Be glad you're playing BT and not Eldar.

Yeah the assaulting out of transports has made Eldar transports useless. Footdar is just as viable if not stronger, Fire Dragons will still destroy any vehicle they're put near (even flyers), Rangers can seriously feth up enemy infantry.

tgf wrote:How do you figure, PK Nob is one of the best challengers against most models. He is ID capable and has 2 wounds. In our games so far the bad daddy of challenges has been the necron dlord with MSS. I am sure there are others equally as nasty, but the dlord has murdered pretty much everyone, reclusiarch, libby, several sarges.

I think challenges for the most part are reasonable because you can contain multiple characters in a unit and plan for them. Challenges and flyers will just require people to think a bit more about what/how they play.

I simply mean that although Nobz are awesome, they're still T4, so in single combat against most other characters in the game that would strike first (Against a PK) there is a realistic chance my Nob will not get a chance to retaliate. PKs might become less attractive, and Big Choppas more, because of the initiative bonus over PK.

AnotherNoob wrote:Won't tyranids be unbelievably strong in the situation of challenges? I've had a warrior prime destroy a lone wolf with power sword and storm shield in close combat before the lonewolf could even react.

This is what I'm talking about.

mercury14 wrote:

Testify wrote:

mercury14 wrote:Just be happy you're not playing Eldar.

Well with the nerf to pyscic hoods they have free reign over the battlefield and are the only ones with protection from Perils.

Yeah. And Runes of Warding will make it a huge pain for other armies' psykers.

But Eldar don't have assault vehicles so they have to disembark their CC units and spend a turn out in the open. Then get shot a second time the following turn during overwatch. And that just doesn't work for T3, low-armor models in a game with nerfed cover.

Wave Serpents went from pretty good to dismally pathetic. No ramps and fast skimmers moving fast still have WS1 and are pathetically easy to kill in CC. Falcons and Night Spinners are completely broken now too. And their infantry shuriken weapons are so far behind the curve now that DAs suck and Guardians are completely unplayable.

And our psykers only have access to two disciplines? And Farseers are level 1 psykers? And they nerfed their witchblades too? WTF??? Be glad you're playing BT and not Eldar.

Meanwhile, footdar increase in power and Harlequins get a really nice buff. Vibro Cannons now do nasty things to vehicles and the best psychic potential in the game is a great boon. Runes of Warding remains monstrously powerful while psychic hoods are needed. Access to different lores matter little; you have what is arguably the best psychic powers in the game. Oh no, your Farseers are L1. Guess what? I can't grab any psyker except a Grey Knight Librarian, who is a distrusting ally and requires me to grab a troop as well.

As far as I can see, there's going to be two, possibly three good units in the BT dex. Assault Terminators, Tactical Terminators and possibly Assault Marines. At least footdar is still semi-viable. In conclusion: be happy you're playing Eldar.

In the back of the rule book it has a list of every shooting weapon, the missile launcher has all three sets of missiles. Does this mean that if you have missile launchers then you can take flakk missiles because its in the rule book even though the faq has not said you can? If so SW are the best at killing flyers, they can kill 6 every turn which is twice as many as hydra squadrons and have better chances of hitting the flyers and then once they are finished move on to the infantry with out any penalties. Long fangs suddenly became better the best shooting unit in the game.

Death company are the best close combat unit in the game now - rage does not make them charge straight at anyone,
they can shoot people, relentless, can have jump packs, and a huge range of different wargear to go and kill any target. What draw back do they have now?

Testify wrote:Yeah the assaulting out of transports has made Eldar transports useless. Footdar is just as viable if not stronger, Fire Dragons will still destroy any vehicle they're put near (even flyers), Rangers can seriously feth up enemy infantry.

Nah, footdar is unplayable too. T3 models don't work in a world of 5+ cover and buffed up rapid-fire weapons that outrange us.

Rangers are deadly as hell now. But they can't be the backbone troops of a list.

mercury14 wrote:

Testify wrote:

mercury14 wrote:Just be happy you're not playing Eldar.

Well with the nerf to pyscic hoods they have free reign over the battlefield and are the only ones with protection from Perils.

Yeah. And Runes of Warding will make it a huge pain for other armies' psykers.

But Eldar don't have assault vehicles so they have to disembark their CC units and spend a turn out in the open. Then get shot a second time the following turn during overwatch. And that just doesn't work for T3, low-armor models in a game with nerfed cover.

Wave Serpents went from pretty good to dismally pathetic. No ramps and fast skimmers moving fast still have WS1 and are pathetically easy to kill in CC. Falcons and Night Spinners are completely broken now too. And their infantry shuriken weapons are so far behind the curve now that DAs suck and Guardians are completely unplayable.

And our psykers only have access to two disciplines? And Farseers are level 1 psykers? And they nerfed their witchblades too? WTF??? Be glad you're playing BT and not Eldar.

Eldar assault units took a hit (like most other armies) but they have plenty to fall back on.

Wave Serpents are still great for dropping Fire Dragons precisely where it hurts (complete with buffed Tank Hunters to boot). Hell, Star Engines give them a 42" flat-out move in one turn with a cover save that can easily be buffed by Fortune / Forewarning.

Those two disciplines contain some amazing powers, and Farseers can still take spirit stones to use 2 powers a turn (not to mention Eldrad who can use 3). Eldar infrantry can do some crazy stuff with Guide / Foreboding on Overwatch. I certainly won't be charging any Dire Avengers covered by those in a hurry.

And why are Falcons suddenly 'broken'? Glances were just as bad for them in 5e as it meant they had to skip a turn of shooting and/or moving. At least now they can snap-shot instead.

xttz wrote:

Eldar assault units took a hit (like most other armies) but they have plenty to fall back on.

Wave Serpents are still great for dropping Fire Dragons precisely where it hurts (complete with buffed Tank Hunters to boot). Hell, Star Engines give them a 42" flat-out move in one turn with a cover save that can easily be buffed by Fortune / Forewarning.

Those two disciplines contain some amazing powers, and Farseers can still take spirit stones to use 2 powers a turn (not to mention Eldrad who can use 3). Eldar infrantry can do some crazy stuff with Guide / Foreboding on Overwatch. I certainly won't be charging any Dire Avengers covered by those in a hurry.

And why are Falcons suddenly 'broken'? Glances were just as bad for them in 5e as it meant they had to skip a turn of shooting and/or moving. At least now they can snap-shot instead.

- Wave Serpents are worse at dropping off Fire Dragons because they're so easy to kill while doing it. A Wave Serpent moving 42" with the intent disembarking Dragons the following turn is hit on a 3+ in assault - to the AV10 back armor. Simple Tac Marines packing krak grenades are now a huge threat since they remove a hull point on a 2+. For reference, they were hit on a 6+ in 5e.

- Falcons are broken because they're dead after 3 glances. In 5e with holo fields they were extraordinarily durable against glances (and pens). Now they're not. And they 're super flimsy in CC just like Serpents. But they still cost a ton of points as if they were very still very durable. Fire Prisms and Night Spinners are the same way. And Spinners which put units in dangerous terrain are nerfed to hell since dangerous terrain no longer ignores armor.

- Guide and Fortune have a 6" range. People love to talk about how they're such a great option but in reality they're not nearly that usable unless they're physically inside the Skimmer.

Eldar do not have a lot to fall back on. Almost all their Aspect Warriors are absurdly overcosted and/or underpowered. Guardians are unplayable with 5+ cover. Banshees/Scorpions/etc are unplayable due to Wave Serpents being unsuited for delivering CC troops. Besides, Banshees are AP3 now anyway. Outside of Eldrad and Farseers there are no HQ units that are suitable for the modern game.

xttz wrote:

And why are Falcons suddenly 'broken'? Glances were just as bad for them in 5e as it meant they had to skip a turn of shooting and/or moving. At least now they can snap-shot instead.

Nobody took Falcons for their ability to shoot, they took them because they are really hard to kill with Holo-Fields. Now, with Hull Points, they really aren't any harder to kill than anything else. Hull Points are typically going to kill vehicles more than penetrating hits will, and in that regard a kitted 200pt falcon is no harder to put down than a 55pt Chimera.