Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

mercury14 wrote:- Wave Serpents are worse at dropping off Fire Dragons because they're so easy to kill while doing it. A Wave Serpent moving 42" with the intent disembarking Dragons the following turn is hit on a 3+ in assault - to the AV10 back armor. Simple Tac Marines packing krak grenades are now a huge threat since they remove a hull point on a 2+. For reference, they were hit on a 6+ in 5e.

- Falcons are broken because they're dead after 3 glances. In 5e with holo fields they were extraordinarily durable against glances (and pens). Now they're not. And they 're super flimsy in CC just like Serpents. But they still cost a ton of points as if they were very still very durable. Fire Prisms and Night Spinners are the same way. And Spinners which put units in dangerous terrain are nerfed to hell since dangerous terrain no longer ignores armor.

- Guide and Fortune have a 6" range. People love to talk about how they're such a great option but in reality they're not nearly that usable unless they're physically inside the Skimmer.

Eldar do not have a lot to fall back on. Almost all their Aspect Warriors are absurdly overcosted and/or underpowered. Guardians are unplayable with 5+ cover. Banshees/Scorpions/etc are unplayable due to Wave Serpents being unsuited for delivering CC troops. Besides, Banshees are AP3 now anyway. Outside of Eldrad and Farseers there are no HQ units that are suitable for the modern game.

The simple solution there is don't drop them in assault range! (or if you have to, make give it a 4++ save first). A 42" range means plenty of scope for movement, and you still get a decent threat range the following turn (6" from the serpent, 6" disembark move, 6" melta range). The whole point of a move like that is to strike where your opponent is vulnerable, which often means behind his advancing assault troops. And if they're forced to turn back and engage you, that's one less issue for your main force to deal with.

Holo-fields were only ever protection against being destroyed in one-hit, they did nothing to prevent Shaken results from glances that force you to skip a turn of firing. Right now the first 2 glances will do nothing to stop you, and if they're landing more hits than that in one turn chances are that Falcon is going down anyway. Cover saves are also much easier to get for vehicles now, they only need 25% rather than 50%.

Guide and Fortune do indeed have a 6" range. Prescience on the other hand does the same thing as Guide, with a 12" range and can be chosen without needing to roll for it. Although while you're rolling for Divination powers, you can also get 4++ saves, the ability to use full BS on overwatch, or a much better version of Doom that forces the enemy to re-roll their saving throws instead of failed wounds.

Harlequins and Banshees are still very effective melee troops - just because they can't hurt Terminators as well doesn't mean that all other units are invulnerable to them. Their amazing speed makes them ideal for keeping behind your main force and counter-charging anyone who tries to move you.
And if you do encounter Terminators? Break out the walkers! Warithlords and Starcannon War Walkers can be nasty, especially when well-supported with the new psychic powers.

Honestly I think some people encounter a problem then just give up. Do you jump on a plane home if it rains on the first day of a holiday?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

xttz wrote:

And why are Falcons suddenly 'broken'? Glances were just as bad for them in 5e as it meant they had to skip a turn of shooting and/or moving. At least now they can snap-shot instead.

Nobody took Falcons for their ability to shoot, they took them because they are really hard to kill with Holo-Fields. Now, with Hull Points, they really aren't any harder to kill than anything else. Hull Points are typically going to kill vehicles more than penetrating hits will, and in that regard a kitted 200pt falcon is no harder to put down than a 55pt Chimera.

...why would you take a 200pt Falcon to start with? If glances make all the difference why not spend those points on 2 vanilla Falcons that can move crazy-fast to get a good firing position, then lay down a bunch of S8/S6 shots to glance things in return?

xttz wrote:

mercury14 wrote:- Wave Serpents are worse at dropping off Fire Dragons because they're so easy to kill while doing it. A Wave Serpent moving 42" with the intent disembarking Dragons the following turn is hit on a 3+ in assault - to the AV10 back armor. Simple Tac Marines packing krak grenades are now a huge threat since they remove a hull point on a 2+. For reference, they were hit on a 6+ in 5e.

- Falcons are broken because they're dead after 3 glances. In 5e with holo fields they were extraordinarily durable against glances (and pens). Now they're not. And they 're super flimsy in CC just like Serpents. But they still cost a ton of points as if they were very still very durable. Fire Prisms and Night Spinners are the same way. And Spinners which put units in dangerous terrain are nerfed to hell since dangerous terrain no longer ignores armor.

- Guide and Fortune have a 6" range. People love to talk about how they're such a great option but in reality they're not nearly that usable unless they're physically inside the Skimmer.

Eldar do not have a lot to fall back on. Almost all their Aspect Warriors are absurdly overcosted and/or underpowered. Guardians are unplayable with 5+ cover. Banshees/Scorpions/etc are unplayable due to Wave Serpents being unsuited for delivering CC troops. Besides, Banshees are AP3 now anyway. Outside of Eldrad and Farseers there are no HQ units that are suitable for the modern game.

The simple solution there is don't drop them in assault range! (or if you have to, make give it a 4++ save first). A 42" range means plenty of scope for movement, and you still get a decent threat range the following turn (6" from the serpent, 6" disembark move, 6" melta range). The whole point of a move like that is to strike where your opponent is vulnerable, which often means behind his advancing assault troops. And if they're forced to turn back and engage you, that's one less issue for your main force to deal with.

Holo-fields were only ever protection against being destroyed in one-hit, they did nothing to prevent Shaken results from glances that force you to skip a turn of firing. Right now the first 2 glances will do nothing to stop you, and if they're landing more hits than that in one turn chances are that Falcon is going down anyway. Cover saves are also much easier to get for vehicles now, they only need 25% rather than 50%.

Guide and Fortune do indeed have a 6" range. Prescience on the other hand does the same thing as Guide, with a 12" range and can be chosen without needing to roll for it. Although while you're rolling for Divination powers, you can also get 4++ saves, the ability to use full BS on overwatch, or a much better version of Doom that forces the enemy to re-roll their saving throws instead of failed wounds.

Harlequins and Banshees are still very effective melee troops - just because they can't hurt Terminators as well doesn't mean that all other units are invulnerable to them. Their amazing speed makes them ideal for keeping behind your main force and counter-charging anyone who tries to move you.
And if you do encounter Terminators? Break out the walkers! Warithlords and Starcannon War Walkers can be nasty, especially when well-supported with the new psychic powers.

Honestly I think some people encounter a problem then just give up. Do you jump on a plane home if it rains on the first day of a holiday?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

xttz wrote:

And why are Falcons suddenly 'broken'? Glances were just as bad for them in 5e as it meant they had to skip a turn of shooting and/or moving. At least now they can snap-shot instead.

Nobody took Falcons for their ability to shoot, they took them because they are really hard to kill with Holo-Fields. Now, with Hull Points, they really aren't any harder to kill than anything else. Hull Points are typically going to kill vehicles more than penetrating hits will, and in that regard a kitted 200pt falcon is no harder to put down than a 55pt Chimera.

...why would you take a 200pt Falcon to start with? If glances make all the difference why not spend those points on 2 vanilla Falcons that can move crazy-fast to get a good firing position, then lay down a bunch of S8/S6 shots to glance things in return?

You miss the point of Falcons completely. Or you're ignoring it.

Banshees are useless now because they have to stand out in the open for a round now and get mauled, then get shot a second time in overwatch all before assaulting. T3 units with light armor such as these are negatively impacted far more than SM units.

Taking Falcons for their shooting isn't a good idea. Their guns are very average for their points and they're a dismal BS3. Can't shoot, can't survive, can't cap. And they're expensive and take up a valuable heavy slot. Therefore Falcons are broken.

xttz wrote:



...why would you take a 200pt Falcon to start with? If glances make all the difference why not spend those points on 2 vanilla Falcons that can move crazy-fast to get a good firing position, then lay down a bunch of S8/S6 shots to glance things in return?

Because at at 130+pts each with S6 guns, they really aren't exactly cost effective firepower, they've never been a unit you take as a shooting platform, they're a very hard to kill transport that *can* shoot if it needs to. If they're no longer hard to kill, their primary purpose is moot. If you want an Eldar HS tank for killy power, you take a Fire Prism, the Falcon isn't going to do much for you costing almost as much as a Leman Russ tank (if you're loading it with S6 guns) with lower armor and similar BS but with shorter range and no blast ability, ans isn't doing anything that you can't get out of a Wave Serpent.

TedNugent wrote:Orks cannot get any Psychic defense aside from their base 6+ and the gaktastic 5+ you can get with a Weirdboy, who has some of the most inconsistent psychic abilities combined with one of the worst IC statlines in the game and the worst wargear options in the game and no access to any of the Rulebook schools of Psychic abilities, oh and it only applies to the unit he joins, not to any surrounding units.

So you can pay 60-90 points for a more or less terrible IC that gives one unit a 5+ instead of a 6+.

Yeah, it's gonna suck. Especially with Cleansing Flame.

6+ is 16.6% which is a lot better than the 0% in 5th


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all Missile Launchers just get the Skyfire rounds per the new Rulebook?

That's pretty much your AA right there fore Marines, Chaos Marines, and IG.

I dont think so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xttz wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

xttz wrote:I have a feeling Necrons will be FOTM, at least until more Skyfire options appear. It's possible to spam basically nothing but warriors (with glancing gauss attacks buffed by the rapid fire changes) and many flyers (which need 6's to hit and act as very fast transports).

Until they hit a flying nid or flying daemons army, a bloodthirster cares not for your flyers and will vector strike them till they explode.

So you're saying that some lists aren't effective against other lists written specifically to counter them? Who knew! Isn't the definition of an unbalanced list one that you can't beat without tailoring your own list for?

Flying MC's can only vector-strike 1 target per turn, and generally cost more than most regular flyers. Without tailoring a list specifically there's unlikely to be more than 2 of them around, and flyers with Skyfire will just as much damage back. The same applies to IG... that lone Hydra will be strafed to death on turn 2.

Alll of this is moot however, because while 3 of these armies can field some form of counter, that still leaves another dozen army books with far less effective options (outside of allies). Until GW release more new shinies of course...

The flying daemon army is the new king of the hill. It can beat flyers and ground armies. The only thing that really has a chance is an IG army build to take out flyers and nothing else. But as hydras dont have intercept, they now cannot hit regular tanks so that army sucks against anything but flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xttz wrote:

Harlequins and Banshees are still very effective melee troops - just because they can't hurt Terminators as well doesn't mean that all other units are invulnerable to them. Their amazing speed makes them ideal for keeping behind your main force and counter-charging anyone who tries to move you.
And if you do encounter Terminators? Break out the walkers! Warithlords and Starcannon War Walkers can be nasty, especially when well-supported with the new psychic powers.

Quins are pretty good now, at least in the Eldar codex. In DE they didnt get the FAQ so they are not good.
Banshees suck. Depending on whether modeling them with axes for init1 and then thier mask for init 10.

Starcannons are so expensive, and warwalkers die so fast, warwalkers are not the answer.
Wraithlords werent good before and now that you can flee from enemies you cannot hurt AND marines can use str6 grenades on them they are truely awful.

I disagree about Wraithlords. Krak grenades are hardly a worry, a ten man pack of marines wounds once, about every three rounds. You're a character, so you can allocate any hit rolls of a six, and kill their p-fist sergeant. Also, since they have Krak grenades, they can't flee from you.