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Tactica wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:you are applying logic to 40k instead of rule text and therefor have lost he argument and are grasping for straws

Incorrect. The rules as quoted by multiple parties seem to dictate. This is not a debate with a winner and loser. This is a discussion. There is no reason to be derrogatory and it doesn't help convince me of your position.

Had you not mentioned "run" and "charge" as part of the discussion, then there would be no reason to respond to such points. I believe your post only further supports the already quoted rules above in opposition to your line of thinking.

My response was not a matter of arguing logic at all, I only responded to your quoted text.

Cheers,

i meant no offence. its just how i look at things when i'm no longer quotign rules i figure i have lost my ground to stand on . I'll look into the text on your next post though and see fi it changes things

FAQ Squigs must use a fire point.

Page 78 fire points
not going qoute the book you can look but squigs use fire points there a shooting attack

Unoffical if you came over to my table with rocket squids we would for sure use a random dice and 4d6 for range hitting what ever vechile they come across be fun.

Tactica wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:you are applying logic to 40k instead of rule text and therefor have lost he argument and are grasping for straws

Incorrect. The rules as quoted by multiple parties seem to dictate. This is not a debate with a winner and loser. This is a discussion. There is no reason to be derrogatory and it doesn't help convince me of your position.

Had you not mentioned "run" and "charge" as part of the discussion, then there would be no reason to respond to such points. I believe your post only further supports the already quoted rules above in opposition to your line of thinking.

My response was not a matter of arguing logic at all, I only responded to your quoted text.

i think it depends again on if "released" means fire

"Releasing a Squig" has a range... it has a S of attack... You cannot do it if you cannot make a normal shooting attack... It happens in the shooting phase with all other shooting attacks... It doesn't require a BS...

The book states that Flyers may only be 'shot' at with Snap Shot. The BRB further only permits one alternative, Sky Fire.

The ork unit and Squigs do not have Sky Fire special rule. Therefore, the only way you are going to cause damage to the Flyer in the Shooting phase is to use Snap Fire rules.

Snap Shot says you become BS 1 and you may not use some kind of a special attack that doesn't use BS to hit.

For what it's worth, that's all I can offer for consideration here...

Cheers,

as to the second part It is again getting to the crux of the issue.

is a squigg a shooting attack? is has a range yes, it has a str yes, it even has a roll to hit on a 2+ but nothign if fired the wording is released.

RAW i somewhat agre with jidmah they would possibly either need to be out of the vehicle or move at combat speed to release a squig. but raw i still am understandign it as a bomb squig as it is wargear ability and not a shooting attack

G00fySmiley wrote:i meant no offence.

None taken, we're good.

Cheers,

i went ahead and threw it up as a suggestion for INAT. in either case i'm going to model my squig models (mayeb just one) with sang guard wings, a death company jetpack and a gretchen because i think it'd make a funny model. and if it turns out squigs can't fly i'll use it as my squig model for old zogwart's curse

Let's have a look at the full rules for Bomb Squigs:

...A Tankbusta may release a Bomb-squig instead of shooting. Roll a dice. On the roll of a 2+ the Bomb-squig will run straight into the nearest enemy vehicle within 18" and detonate, causing a S8 hit on the section of the vehicle facing the Tankbusta. On the roll of a 1 the squig will run straight into the nearest friendly vehicle within 18" and detonate there instead. ...

Key points:

1. The bomb-squig does not have a shooting profile. It is not listed as "Range 18" S8 AP- Vehicle Hunter" or anything similar (indeed, it is not given an AP value at all).
2. The bomb-squig is released "instead of shooting" (emphasis mine), not "instead of shooting the rokkit" or "instead of shooting the Tankbusta's weapon", but "instead of shooting".
3. While bomb-squigs are released in the shooting phase, there are many non-shooting abilities used in the shooting phase (e.g.: a Mek's ability to repair a vehicle is done "at the beginning of his Shooting Phase ... instead of Shooting".)
4. It is never even remotely referred to as a shooting attack. There's no "treat this like a shooting attack", "as a shooting attack with the following profile" or any such verbage.


Do I think RAI it is intended for squigs to hit flyers? Probably not. Does it seem to fit RAW? Until we get an updated FAQ, I would argue yes, it does. It appears to simply be an overlooked relic of a 40k system that had no flyers.

Yeah it does say "release" instead of "shooting". It even goes as far as saying, "may release instead of shooting".

Plus, the orks have jack squat from a ground forces perspective to kill flyers; we really going to deny them the fun of flying squigs?

I'm seeing this as any other non-shooting attack, flyers are only immune to shooting attacks that are not skyfire. There is nothing that says area effects, like Njals stormcalling powers, or another flyer exploding right into another flyer, are not allowed correct?

The FAQ is conflicting, in multiple places it says to release it during shooting phase, but does not call it a shooting attack. Also it cannot be overwatched, it's not a blast, so why not? Because it's not a shooting attack?

I'm not seeing anything here that says they cannot blow up a flyer. The dumb "logic" of it is that the squid is such a big explosion it also hits the flyer lol.

I'd let my opponent do it, because it's funny as heck.

However, I don't use any flyers, so...

Fluff-wise, it would work because the Orks think it should. I would definitely be in the same boat as Crazyterrain. I would allow it, but right noow it ddoesn't affect me anyway.

Jidmah wrote:Bomb squigs have an official model, so that would be moddeling for advantage :p

Even then, per RAW, you would have to disembark to shoot them at planes, since you are not allowed to snap-fire them, and thus can not follow normal shooting rules while embarked.

I don't have them, but let's be honest i'd be perfectly fine if they could hit my flyer, i won't be using fliers anyway so it makes no difference and There's not too much of a problem with it at all as most armies will probs spam fliers and you can only use a bomb squig once.

I love how no one even bothered to argue the rules I provided, but rather made up their own.

The FAQ clearly states that Squigs are, in fact, following shooting rules.

Only in a vehicle. Like many things, squig rules change in vehicles. But they only change, in vehicles. If I count as fearless in a vehicle and then get out of a vehicle, am I still fearless? You have to take into account the entire rules passage, not just the part that proves your point.

So, how about the other four points?

1. They are released during regular shooting, not as regular shooting. This only means that they are used at the same time, it does not mean they are used in the same way

2.
Q. Can a Bomb Squig still be released if the unit
is pinned or locked in combat? What if it is
embarked on a vehicle?
A. Squigs may not be released if the unit is not
allowed to shoot that turn. If the unit is
embarked in a vehicle, they can be released as
long as the releasing model would have been able
to fire a normal weapon. This follows the normal
rules for passengers shooting from vehicles.

Show me how your description of 2 (Especially the ect. part) matches this direct quote at all.

3. has already been discussed

4. I dont have the codex so I cannot argue one way or another

5. I play necrons quite often and I will tell you that these two attacks are two very different attacks. The gateway does not, for one, represent a moving entity, it also requires a test that has already been stated vehicles cannot fail.

6. Found this little tidbit in the FAQ
Q. Can a Tankbusta unit release its Bomb Squigs
first and then shoot later in the Shooting phase?
Do they have to target an enemy unit that is
attacked by a Bomb Squig? Do they then have to
assault that vehicle?
A. Releasing Bomb Squigs is done at the same
time as the unit’s regular shooting. The target of
released Squigs do not affect the mob’s target for
shooting and assaulting.

so you see even in this entry they are not treated like the "normal" shooting attack that you seem so determined to belive they are.

Personally I agree that a bomb squig would be able to hit flyers because of RAW. Remember that bomb squigs used to be able to hit skimmers as well which were also "hovering" above the ground. It makes no sense logically but many of the rules don't use logic at all. I would perceive bomb squigs being used in such a way as cheesy, but not consider it illegal.

Not to mention that orks are such an unorthodox side I can almost picture them strapping an impromptu rocket to a squig and launching it at the flyer. With the squig flailing wildly guiding it towards the flyer.

Jidmah wrote:So, how about the other four points?

If you see in the BGB 5th FAQ they said that non shooting attacks that require LoS use Fire Points, so this is the same case with the squig.

squigs dont require LoS

Personally my interpretation is that they really shouldn't be able to hit flyers, but if someone actually modelled a squig with wings, rocket pack, etc, I would probably let them try it for a laugh until we get an faq ruling about this

Well, I guess you can hit fliers as long as you are disembarked due to multiple rules loopholes.

Makes completely no sense consistency-wise, but oh well.

As said, they could be used to hit skimmers in 5th (and they still can in 6th) so you can hit flyers until GW finally realises (or bothers to) and change it

So yay!

Only if you're disembarked. The FAQ explicitly forces you to follow shooting rules if embarked, in which case you would not be allowed to resolve hits done by the squig against a flier.

If the unit is embarked in a vehicle, they can be released as long as the releasing model would have been able
to fire a normal weapon. This follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles.

I dont think the Faq says what you think it means.

"...as long as the releasing model wound have been able to fire a normal weapon. THIS follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles."

How do you determine if a model would normally be able to fire a weapon? Why with the normal rules for shooting from vehicles of course, meaning you need a fire point, the vehicle can only have moved so far, no smoke, ect.

That does NOT read that the squig follows the normal rules for passengers shooting from vehicles. By that reading, the squig would be an 18 inch shooting attack that is s8 ap-- using the orks BS--because those are the normal shooting rules. We know this is not the case, as that is not how you would resolve a squig in a vehicle.

Because the squig rules explicitly override choice of target, LoS and to-hit roll rules. They do not override any other rules, including snap-fire.

Thus your counter-example is wrong.

In addition, you'd only be able to snap-fire a normal weapon if it were applicable for that rule(uses BS, is not blast or template). So, if you're forced to snap-fire for some reason(vehicle moved too fast, for example), you'd not be able to snap-fire the squig.
Which is also perfectly in line with not being able to use squigs on overwatch.

Seems to me that the only reason you look at shooting rules is to determine if the tankbusta could legally fire. if he can legally fire he can then forfeit his shot to instead release a squig. If he could not legally fire he has no shot to forfeit and the squig is not released.
Shooting rules are looked at to determine if the tankbusta can release a squig but the squig follows no such shooting rules itself.

(as for the squigs with wings discussion...I just assumed the nob threw the thing, reliving his glory days on the Bloodbowl gridiron)

Now I want to take one of the Bloodbowl models and convert it so instead of a bloodball, he's throwing a squig.

wana10 wrote:Seems to me that the only reason you look at shooting rules is to determine if the tankbusta could legally fire. if he can legally fire he can then forfeit his shot to instead release a squig. If he could not legally fire he has no shot to forfeit and the squig is not released.
Shooting rules are looked at to determine if the tankbusta can release a squig but the squig follows no such shooting rules itself.

(as for the squigs with wings discussion...I just assumed the nob threw the thing, reliving his glory days on the Bloodbowl gridiron)

The rule doesn't say to look at shooting just for that. If we are RAW-whoring to be able to throw squigs at planes, you have to do it all the way. If you claim that RAW, squigs are not weapons and thus ignore "hard to hit", you can't go on and tell the person that RAI, you are only supposed to look at whether the tankbusta is able to shoot, not actually use the rules.

That's cherry-picking.

Cherry-picking? Nonsense.

Pg 42, Codex Orks, says a squig may be released instead of shooting.

Pg 4, Codex Orks FAQ, clarifies this says that the squig release happens at the same time of shooting and that the tankbusta releasing the squig must have been legally allowed to shoot if he wishes to release a squig. You can not replace shooting with releasing if you could never shoot to start with.

A=shooting
B=squig releasing

Codex Orks says you can replace A with B
The FAQ says you can replace A with B but only if A was a legal option. How to determine if A is an option? Use the standard shooting rules. In the case of embarked orks that would be the passengers shooting from vehicles rules.

Jidmah wrote:If we are RAW-whoring

You mean, if we're reading the actual rules instead of applying what we think is RAI to every situation? Because there is a LOT of that going on in threads concerning what can and can't hit flyers.

And as there was no RAI before 6th concerning flyers........

I like this guys outlook

wana10 wrote:Cherry-picking? Nonsense.

Pg 42, Codex Orks, says a squig may be released instead of shooting.

Pg 4, Codex Orks FAQ, clarifies this says that the squig release happens at the same time of shooting and that the tankbusta releasing the squig must have been legally allowed to shoot if he wishes to release a squig. You can not replace shooting with releasing if you could never shoot to start with.

A=shooting
B=squig releasing

Codex Orks says you can replace A with B
The FAQ says you can replace A with B but only if A was a legal option. How to determine if A is an option? Use the standard shooting rules. In the case of embarked orks that would be the passengers shooting from vehicles rules.

Not really. Pg 4, Codex Orks FAQ says "Squig may not be released if the unit is not allowed to shoot that turn".
According to RAW, is the unit allowed to shoot this turn? If yes, model can release squig.
If the rule was "Squig may not be released if the unit is not allowed to shoot at the target that turn" then you'd have a point. But that restriction is not mentioned.