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So for the people advocating that Rending works, would hte special rules for Boneswords work? If they do, does that include the special rule for ignoring armour saves?

Janthkin wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Lobukia wrote:Permissive rule set, where does it say you can?

From the codex. HoW is an Attack. MotW means CC Attacks from that model are Rending. Permission grnted

Find where it is removed, with actual rule quotes

Forget rending, it means Monstrous Creatures HoW at AP 2, and Gargoyles get their poison.

No, the Smash ability specifies that it doesn't apply to HoW attacks.

For anyone who somehow doesn't think that HoW attacks are close combat attacks, look at the facts:

• It is called an attack.
• It is resolved at an initiative step.
• It has to specifically say that it doesn't allow a pile-in move.
• It has to be specifically forbidden from benefiting from Smash (since Smash normally applies to all of a model's attacks).


Basically the 'smash' exception is precisely what each special rule for a model would need to deny that special rule from working with a HoW attack. Again, WEAPONS carried by the model do not benefit HoW attacks, but any base abilities the model has would still apply.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:So for the people advocating that Rending works, would hte special rules for Boneswords work? If they do, does that include the special rule for ignoring armour saves?

Again, any benefits provided to a model by using a weapon would not apply to HoW attacks because the model is not using any weapons to make this attack (just his base strength).

However if the model has an innate special ability that grants him something like Rending or Poison to all of his attacks then this would apply to HoW attacks as well.

However if the model has an innate special ability that grants him something like Rending or Poison to all of his attacks then this would apply to HoW attacks as well.

I agree 100%.

I disagree with you Maelstrom808 that HoW rending would grant the D3 extra penetration but not the AP2. It does grant the AP2 if your wound roll is a 6. If you need examples from elsewhere, the AP of TWC' and Wraiths' attacks is already '-' untill they roll a 6 on the wound and therefore modify the attack's final AP to 2. HoW hits operate in the same way, like Yakface described.

I don't think this rule is ambiguous in the slightest.

Someone explained HoW as the 40k equivalent of Impact Hits in Fantasy.

If you look at it that way--

"Finally, as Impact Hits are a close combat attack (albeit of an unusual type) any unsaved wounds they inflict count towards combat resolution, just as any more conventional close combat attacks would." pg 71

Consider that HoW wounds count towards Assault Results i'm willing to bet that somebody left out a similar, yet crucial, paragraph from HoW as written in the rule book.

Good luck either way you try to play it!!

yakface wrote:

Again, any benefits provided to a model by using a weapon would not apply to HoW attacks because the model is not using any weapons to make this attack (just his base strength).

Where is said that a model is making an HoW attack without a weapon? Many melee weapons are resolved using your base strength. In fact, all MC CC weapons are resolved at base strength unless using the Smash rule to boost your strength. The fact that a HoW attack is only resolved using your base Strength in no way implies a weapon is not being used.

In fact, even being AP - does not imply that a Bonesword is not being used, since Boneswords do not have an updated profile. They are AP * where * = ignores armor saves. They have no assigned AP value. Not a big deal in 5th since they were power weapons, and all power weapons were de facto AP 2. And also no big deal being AP 2 since AP 2 conferred no bonus anywhere (edit: except for determining whether or not you get a FNP roll). Not so in 6th.

Furthermore, when reading the Bonesword rule, it says the insta-kill effect is only triggered on unsaved Wounds. If I am not rolling to resolve a Wound with a HoW attack, what am I rolling? If you are not rolling to save against a Wound, what are you rolling? If you do no save, is that an unsaved Wound or not?

yakface wrote:However if the model has an innate special ability that grants him something like Rending or Poison to all of his attacks then this would apply to HoW attacks as well.

Agreed.

The other question is the "competing set value" issue with Rending and HoW. Both are set AP values . One is set to AP -, and the other is set to AP 2. Wouldn't that trigger a roll-off if Rending applies to HoW attacks?

Note that for Nids, all CC Weapons apply to all attacks - so allowing Rending allows Boneswords.

And both are worded similar to Poison (all CC attacks...).

rigeld2 wrote:Note that for Nids, all CC Weapons apply to all attacks - so allowing Rending allows Boneswords.

Agreed. The question is then does the Rending AP 2 set value count, or does the AP - HoW set value count? Rending would still auto-wound in all situations regardless, but which set value would take precedence? Would this be a roll off situation?

Edit to add: All Nid CC weapons apply to all CC attacks only. If a Vector Strike is not a CC attack, then CC weapons would not apply.

We aren't discussing Vector Strike - were discussing Hammer of Wrath.

I think Rending is more specific than HoW, so it would override the AP -, but I'm biased so I've been trying to stay out of the discussion.

I'm playing it as it's written in the USR, a hit resolved at S(user) AP -.

My opponents will thank me. If someone pulls this rending HoW against me, I'll just pick my models off the table, clearly winning is too important for this guy.

Therion wrote:

However if the model has an innate special ability that grants him something like Rending or Poison to all of his attacks then this would apply to HoW attacks as well.

I agree 100%.

I disagree with you Maelstrom808 that HoW rending would grant the D3 extra penetration but not the AP2. It does grant the AP2 if your wound roll is a 6. If you need examples from elsewhere, the AP of TWC' and Wraiths' attacks is already '-' untill they roll a 6 on the wound and therefore modify the attack's final AP to 2. HoW hits operate in the same way, like Yakface described.

I don't think this rule is ambiguous in the slightest.

Yeah, I flipped my view on that and agree, but didn't bother to post earlier as I think it was already covered pretty well.

lord_bobbington wrote:The rules tells you what you can't do during the attack, it says unmodified strength, no AP, but if you got no bonuses or abilities, then why not say it?

Why should it have to tell you again that you can use the units own abilities?

It's a permission based game. That means, a player can't do it unless the rule says you can.

Example: Movement phase doesn't say you can't shoot with your weapons or assault that your model has... It just tells you what you CAN do and that is, how you move. You don't get to use your gun or your psykic ability, assault distance etc until the rule says you can... that is, until you are permitted by the rules.

This is a special rule, the BRB doesn't tell you what you CANNOT do... it just tells you what you CAN do.

The whole game works that way.

Cheers,

Is the rending rule granted by a close combat weapon? Then no rending for you on HoW.

Is the rending rule granted by unit entry or by a piece of generic (non weapon) wargear?
Congrats, you have a sharped face/head with which to bash your enemies.

Yeah, I would also say HoW doen't allow special rules stacked on it. If so, say hello to my Shrikes with their Dual Boneswords IDing on LD rolls of 3D6 at I10

I wouldn't allow it simply because there are so many ways this can be abused really badly.

60mm wrote:Yeah, I would also say HoW doen't allow special rules stacked on it. If so, say hello to my Shrikes with their Dual Boneswords IDing on LD rolls of 3D6 at I10

I wouldn't allow it simply because there are so many ways this can be abused really badly.

So you're arguing RAI or HYWPI, not RAW? That's fine - but you should say so up front.

rigeld2 wrote:

60mm wrote:Yeah, I would also say HoW doen't allow special rules stacked on it. If so, say hello to my Shrikes with their Dual Boneswords IDing on LD rolls of 3D6 at I10

I wouldn't allow it simply because there are so many ways this can be abused really badly.

So you're arguing RAI or HYWPI, not RAW? That's fine - but you should say so up front.

I'll make sure to say completely obvious things up front for now on sir.

Slackermagee wrote:Is the rending rule granted by a close combat weapon? Then no rending for you on HoW.

The Rending special rule is only triggered on a To Wound roll. Are you or are you not rolling To Wound on a HoW attack?

If we look on Page 423 at the Hallucination power on a 5-6 it states

"using that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapon."

Now I mention this because it specifically states that when this unit attacks itself it uses the special weapons in these attacks. Hammer of wrath states that:

"makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model's unmodified Strength with an AP of -. "

Rending states that "for each To Wound rule of a 6 the target automatically suffers a Wound regardless of Toughness."

Now if you used your unmodified Strength of 4 and assault a T8 model you could not cause a wound since the To Wound chart states that you require - which means it's unable to wound. However since you've got rending you cause a Wound on a 6. Is this modifying your strength? In a way it is giving your Strength a special rule that is modifying the Strength allowing you to wound anything you normally would not be able to wound. Since it is a modification of Strength which is used in the To Wound roll you are not allowed to use it.

Basically modifications of Strength are not just additions or subtractions it is also special rules.

rogueeyes wrote:If we look on Page 423 at the Hallucination power on a 5-6 it states

"using that model's own Strengths, but using the Strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of their most powerful close combat weapon."

Now I mention this because it specifically states that when this unit attacks itself it uses the special weapons in these attacks. Hammer of wrath states that:

"makes one additional Attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model's unmodified Strength with an AP of -. "

Rending states that "for each To Wound rule of a 6 the target automatically suffers a Wound regardless of Toughness."

Now if you used your unmodified Strength of 4 and assault a T8 model you could not cause a wound since the To Wound chart states that you require - which means it's unable to wound. However since you've got rending you cause a Wound on a 6. Is this modifying your strength? In a way it is giving your Strength a special rule that is modifying the Strength allowing you to wound anything you normally would not be able to wound. Since it is a modification of Strength which is used in the To Wound roll you are not allowed to use it.

Basically modifications of Strength are not just additions or subtractions it is also special rules.

Excepting that is not what rending is at all.

Rending in no way ever modifies Str.

Also, since we are on the subject, take a Look at the Chariot Special Rules: The Chariot itself has the Hammer of wrath special rule, but gains d6 attacks rather than one and resolves them at Str 6 AP -, unless otherwise stated.

SO here we have a model tat does not have a Strength Stat and that gets to make Hammer of wrath Attacks at a Strength of 6 via Special rule.

So obviously Special rules based on the Model itself can alter the Hammer of Wrath Special rule.

And again Rending does not alter strength; you still make an attack based on your model's base Strength, but get the advantage of Auto -wounding regardless of Toughness on a roll of 6.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

And again Rending does not alter strength; you still make an attack based on your model's base Strength, but get the advantage of Auto -wounding regardless of Toughness on a roll of 6.

I would argue that there would also be a roll-off to decide if the Rend is AP 2 or AP -.

You already had something more restrictive than a roll-off.

You had a 1-in-6 chance to change the AP- to AP2 when you rolled to wound.

Most of the models we are talking about already are striking with an AP- at their regular I step, so unless you think you should roll-off every time you rend with normal attacks; then you wouldn't need to roll off when rending on a HoW attack.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You already had something more restrictive than a roll-off.

You had a 1-in-6 chance to change the AP- to AP2 when you rolled to wound.

Most of the models we are talking about already are striking with an AP- at their regular I step, so unless you think you should roll-off every time you rend with normal attacks; then you wouldn't need to roll off when rending on a HoW attack.

Yeah, that's true. Chain Swords and Close Combat Weapons are also set values at AP-. And I don't think anyone would argue those have to be rolled off every time you get a Rend. Same with Assault Cannons at AP4.

This is one (maybe the only one) area of the game where Nids have an advantage.

None of their weapons are weapons as much as biomorphs. It only matters that you have it, not that you are using it. If you have boneswords, they work even if you are attacking with Rending claws, or scything talons, etc.

This is ridiculous. Honestly, people are trying to imply that HoW denotes rending and poison and whatever else? It's a user Str auto hit resolved with AP-...that's all it is.

I feel that if the rule says you use str and ap--, and you use str and AP2, even if you say its from rending you still broke the rule and used an AP other than ap--.

Why not also argue its ap3 with a power weapon? Hammer of Wrath does NOT say you dont use a weapon. In fact, if you have a power fist, why not use that to make your attack ap2?

DevianID wrote:I feel that if the rule says you use str and ap--, and you use str and AP2, even if you say its from rending you still broke the rule and used an AP other than ap--.

Why not also argue its ap3 with a power weapon? Hammer of Wrath does NOT say you dont use a weapon. In fact, if you have a power fist, why not use that to make your attack ap2?

Because it is permissive. It states that it makes one additional attack that hits automatically. Nowhere is it said to use your weapons for this special attack.

This special attack is granted by a specific set of rules HoW. Rending is granted for all attacks for a model with the special rule. All attacks is more general than a specific attack granted by a special rule at s and ap -. Since this is a specialized attack and does not state that yoi use the special abilities or wepons of the model then it will always be done at s user and ap -.

If you were able to use special rules for this attack the rule would state that you are granted an additional attack with any spedial weapons or special rulws available to the model. since you are given a strength and ap profile you must use this strength and ap regardless. Even if you roll a 6 to wound and rending kicks in that is more generalized rule that would happen for any attack rather than a specialized how attack that states it hits at ap of -.

rogueeyes wrote:

DevianID wrote:I feel that if the rule says you use str and ap--, and you use str and AP2, even if you say its from rending you still broke the rule and used an AP other than ap--.

Why not also argue its ap3 with a power weapon? Hammer of Wrath does NOT say you dont use a weapon. In fact, if you have a power fist, why not use that to make your attack ap2?

Because it is permissive. It states that it makes one additional attack that hits automatically. Nowhere is it said to use your weapons for this special attack.

This special attack is granted by a specific set of rules HoW. Rending is granted for all attacks for a model with the special rule. All attacks is more general than a specific attack granted by a special rule at s and ap -. Since this is a specialized attack and does not state that yoi use the special abilities or wepons of the model then it will always be done at s user and ap -.

If you were able to use special rules for this attack the rule would state that you are granted an additional attack with any spedial weapons or special rulws available to the model. since you are given a strength and ap profile you must use this strength and ap regardless. Even if you roll a 6 to wound and rending kicks in that is more generalized rule that would happen for any attack rather than a specialized how attack that states it hits at ap of -.

So then how do you resolve a Chariot's HoW?

If you do not apply its special rules, then it has no Base Str. Its Special rules also Detail that it does D6 Attacks.

Rending, and Poison are Special rules that certain models have. Neither modifies the Str of the model attacking, and Rending only alters the AP on a roll of 6 to wound(the attack was made at an AP-); which is far more specific then Smash, or Power weapons variant APs, or even a Basic CCW(which is also AP-).

You know what, lets go back to that simple CCW. It has a Detailed Profile that you make attacks at a Strength as user, and an AP-.

So can Rending or Poison no longer effect the attacks made by normal CCWs?

Is that what you are trying to claim?

"Many warriors hurl themselves headlong into combat, seeking to crush or trample the foe." BRB page 37 Hammer of Wrath description.

When all else fails turn to the description. It doesn't use weapons because it specifically states the AP and Str rather than leaving it up to what the model is carrying. Since we all seem to agree there are no weapons used for HoW I think we can leave that one alone.

The description states that the model is crushing or trampling the foe. For jump troops this is the impact of them slamming into the ground/boosting forward (a la DoW2/Space Marine). For bikes it is the impact of the bike hitting the enemies. For MC it is the impact of them jumping/stomping the first model it can reach. Since the atttack is clearly not what the model would normally use to do damage in a melee attack but the impact of them charging even the model's special rule should not apply to any HoW attacks.

Yeah, poisoned rending claws wouldn't do anything special when stomping on a bad guy.

Lobukia wrote:No, it allows (permits, also in the word permissive) a given S a give AP, and a given I. That is it.

Ummm...

Then how can any attack (shooting or cc) benefit from the rending usr?

Every single attack has a 'profile'.

Using this interpretation, assault cannons can never rend because their attacks ARE ALWAYS str6 ap4.

Rending either works regardless of the weapon profile or it never works at all.

EDIT
Speaking of which is there a rule anywhere that states you HAVE to use your 'weapons' in cc?

Rending states that it applies to a model's/weapons attacks. It does not state that it applies to a Hammer of Wrath attack.

A chariot specifically overrides the Hamnmer of Wrath rule stating that it does D6 attacks. This is more specific so it over rides the generalized rule.

Here's a little chart to show generalized to specific - note this is often confused by codex trumps rulebook which is not the case.

1. Normal Attack in CC S: user AP: -
2. Normal Attack Overrided by Power Sword since not all models have the Power Sword rule S: user AP: 3
3. To wound with Rending of a 6 overrides Power Sword since it only happens on a to wound role of a 6 but will happen always on a to wound of a 6. This will happen in every single round of combat that a to wound of a 6 happens.
4. Hammer of Wrath happens only when a charge happens by a unit with the Hammer of Wrath rule and it is granted a I10 attack at a specific strength and initiative. This will only happen the first round of combat where you charge. This is more specific then a normal attack, a power weapon attack, or a rending attack. This over rides all other rules in this case leaving you with S: user AP: -.

Why is this reasoning?
Power swords happen in any CC attack equipped with Power Swords granting AP3. This is very general. It can be any round of combat or even when being charged. You do not have to be in base contact.

Rending overrides power swords because it can also happen in any round of combat. You just are required to roll a 6 in the to hit phase. If you roll a 6 you are granted AP2. You can use this rule when being charged.

Hammer of Wrath cannot be used when being charged. It activates when you charge something and land in base to base contact. It gives you a specialized attack at S: User AP: - and automatically hits the opponent during the I: 10 step.

Using this interpretation, assault cannons can never rend because their attacks ARE ALWAYS str6 ap4.

Rending either works regardless of the weapon profile or it never works at all.

Rending over rides an assault cannon rule because rending is more specific then the assault cannon weapon profile that can be used in any type of shooting. Rending kicks in when a shooting or close combat attack with the specific rule happens on a to wound of a 6. Like I said this can be any phase of combat or turn or even when using overwatch.

Rending is more generalized than normal shooting rules or close combat attacks. Even close combat attacks with specific weapons like Power Weapons. A Power Axe on a S2 model will wound a T10 model on a roll of a 6 if it has rending because rending kicks in and it scores an automatic wound because of it.

Hammer of Wrath is more specific. The S: user is never modified (specifically stated in the rule) and other special rules do not apply to it unless they are more specific then it which means that they must be more specific then this:

Model must be charging and have the special rule HoW.
Model must be in base to base contact after the charge move.
Model must use an I:10 attack granted by the rule
Model must use Auto hit with granted I10 attack
Model must roll to wound using specific unmodified Strength of User
Model must use AP: - when rolling to wound.

If hammer of wrath stated that other special rules applied or happened in all cases when the user was attacking then yes Power Weapons would kick in and work. Also, Rending would work. This is not the case.