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blah. This is not the case.

Rending, if its on a weapon, would not work with HoW.

If the model has rending, then HoW will be rending.

The only thing that is 'specific' about HoW OVER a combat weapon is that no str mods are applied.

Nothing else.

The only way HoW doesnt get rending is if rending is a str mod or HoW is not a cc attack.

HoW is no more 'specific' about how it attacks 'on the charge' than a lance weapon.

I dont even know where this 'specificity' is coming from...

Rending changes the profile of all attacks to ap2. HoW is an advanced rule with a unique profile of AP--. The advanced HoW rule supersedes the more basic rule allowing rending for all the cc attacks.

DevianID wrote:Rending changes the profile of all attacks to ap2. HoW is an advanced rule with a unique profile of AP--. The advanced HoW rule supersedes the more basic rule allowing rending for all the cc attacks.

False. Rending causes wounds that roll a 6 to be resolved at AP2. The weapons profile is not changed.

imweasel wrote:

blah. This is not the case.

Rending, if its on a weapon, would not work with HoW.

If the model has rending, then HoW will be rending.

The only thing that is 'specific' about HoW OVER a combat weapon is that no str mods are applied.

Nothing else.

The only way HoW doesnt get rending is if rending is a str mod or HoW is not a cc attack.

HoW is no more 'specific' about how it attacks 'on the charge' than a lance weapon.

I dont even know where this 'specificity' is coming from...

Specific over general. Pg 7 on Basic vs Advanced rules. Advanced rules override basic rules. Rending is more basic then HoW is. Thus HoW overrides Rending since HoW is more advanced in when and how it is applied compared to rending. The AP - over rides the AP 2 since a HoW attack is auto hit and uses S: user and AP: -.

Why are you saying Rending is a basic rule while HoW is advanced?

Both HoW and Rending require wounds to be resolved at set AP values, how this is resolved is evenly debatable

However all other benefits of Rending would definitely still apply
(+d3 Pen and autowound)

rigeld2 wrote:Why are you saying Rending is a basic rule while HoW is advanced?

HoW is a more specific advanced rule than Rending is. Rending occurs in certain circumstances as does HoW. This attack is granted by HoW thus is must abide by the rules set forth in HoW. Rending occurs on all attacks for a model or weapon that has rending. This is more advanced than say a typical CCW attack or power weapon attack.

If I follow the advanced rule for HoW I must apply the S user and AP - according to the rules in HoW. As soon as I apply the rules for rending I am applying an advanced rule that is not stated in HoW. If HoW gave permission to use other special rules than there would not be an issue but it does not state to use the special rules of any weapons or models. Therefore you must use the attack S and AP given in the rule.

rogueeyes wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Why are you saying Rending is a basic rule while HoW is advanced?

HoW is a more specific advanced rule than Rending is. Rending occurs in certain circumstances as does HoW. This attack is granted by HoW thus is must abide by the rules set forth in HoW. Rending occurs on all attacks for a model or weapon that has rending. This is more advanced than say a typical CCW attack or power weapon attack.

If I follow the advanced rule for HoW I must apply the S user and AP - according to the rules in HoW. As soon as I apply the rules for rending I am applying an advanced rule that is not stated in HoW. If HoW gave permission to use other special rules than there would not be an issue but it does not state to use the special rules of any weapons or models. Therefore you must use the attack S and AP given in the rule.

I have permission to use Rending on all of my attacks.
Hammer of Wrath is an attack.
Hammer of Wrath does not deny permission granted in step 1.

Do you disagree with any of those? I feel like you're trying to obfuscate things and talking in circles. What basis do you have for saying HoW is "more advanced" than rending -or "more specific" as you attempted to prove?

You're acting like "HoW is advanced." is absolute fact and stated somewhere. Can you provide a page number?

False. Rending causes wounds that roll a 6 to be resolved at AP2. The weapons profile is not changed.

I didnt mention weapon profile in the part you quoted, so think your rebuttal needs to be reexamined.

HoW is a special rule that resolves an attack at init 10, s:user, and AP--. You are claiming that your second special rule allows you to change HoW's profile to ap2 on a to-wound roll of 6. However, HoW says your profile is ap--. You can not use both HoW's profile and rendings profile at the same time.

I get what you are trying to say, which seems to be that HoW is yet another attack that the model makes in close combat, thus rules that modify a model's close combat attacks should apply.

However, I disagree with this, partly because HoW is by design already an exception to how a model attacks in CC.

HoW does not say if you do or do not get to use a weapon, for example, just the same as it says you do not get to use rending. But I feel it doesnt need to. HoW is fully contained in HoW, excepting additional special rules that state they specifically work with HoW like the chariot rules. When there is a conflict, such as ap-- versus ap2 with rending like you get on your normal attacks, we are to use the more advanced rule. The more advanced rule is clearly HoW.

DevianID wrote:

False. Rending causes wounds that roll a 6 to be resolved at AP2. The weapons profile is not changed.

I didnt mention weapon profile in the part you quoted, so think your rebuttal needs to be reexamined.

HoW is a special rule that resolves an attack at init 10, s:user, and AP--. You are claiming that your second special rule allows you to change HoW's profile to ap2 on a to-wound roll of 6. However, HoW says your profile is ap--. You can not use both HoW's profile and rendings profile at the same time.

I get what you are trying to say, which seems to be that HoW is yet another attack that the model makes in close combat, thus rules that modify a model's close combat attacks should apply.

However, I disagree with this, partly because HoW is by design already an exception to how a model attacks in CC.

HoW does not say if you do or do not get to use a weapon, for example, just the same as it says you do not get to use rending. But I feel it doesnt need to. HoW is fully contained in HoW, excepting additional special rules that state they specifically work with HoW like the chariot rules. When there is a conflict, such as ap-- versus ap2 with rending like you get on your normal attacks, we are to use the more advanced rule. The more advanced rule is clearly HoW.

2 things:

First your argument seems to return to the Claim that Rending when making attacks with a Normal CCW(such as Mark of the Wulfen Rending requires) Is always going to Be AP-(Same with the Assault Cannon always being AP4); because that is the profile on the weapon. This is of course not the case.

Second; The More Advanced rule is in no way the rule that gives a Blank all the time profile, it is clearly the rule that alters to profile on a given roll(Rending).

When you have a Special rule that has a Basic State, and you have a rule that alters or modifies that state, the Altering or modifying rule is the more advanced rule, If the altering/Modifying rule only functions after a specific Dice roll then it is doubly more advanced.

rigeld2 wrote:I have permission to use Rending on all of my attacks.
Hammer of Wrath is an attack.
Hammer of Wrath does not deny permission granted in step 1.

Do you disagree with any of those?

I do disagree with the first premise. You do not have permission to use rending on all of your attacks. You have permission to use rending when you attack with a close combat weapon. HoW is not a close combat attack with a close combat weapon, it is a special attack that is used when charging an enemy unit. There is a huge difference. Just because the weapon in question is a part of your model's body does not mean it is not a weapon for the purpose of this discussion. If your special rules involving close combat weapons could be used there would be no need to add that the HoW attack is made at user str and ap- because you would already know what your str and ap would be. If this was considered a close combat attack the wording would have said "This is an automatic hit that is resolved at Initiative 10." Why did they specify the str and ap of this attack? Because it is not a normal close combat attack but a special attack made with special rules, and those special rules are limited to what is written under that special rule.

Like I said earlier, the HoW attack is the impact of the charge not an attack they do when they get there.

No HoW is very much a Close combat attack(a special one, but still it is one); it is done at the Initiative 10 step, along with any other Initiative 10 models attacking. The reason it has a Stated Strength and AP is that it is not made with any weapons your model has(which could have other Strengths and AP values, along with certain special rules granted by the weapon).

Not that it matters, Thunder wolf Mounts and Mark of the wulfen grant rending to Attacks made in Close Combat(Which HoW is undeniably one of); not "Close combat Attacks".

Also to quote the necron codex under wraiths "Phase Attacks: Close combat attacks made by Canoptek Wraiths have the rending special rule."

If a wraith makes a HoW attack, which is a close combat attack, then the HoW attack has the rending special rule.

If another rule is worded differently you may have a case, however for wraiths HoW has rending.

Captain Antivas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I have permission to use Rending on all of my attacks.
Hammer of Wrath is an attack.
Hammer of Wrath does not deny permission granted in step 1.

Do you disagree with any of those?

I do disagree with the first premise. You do not have permission to use rending on all of your attacks. You have permission to use rending when you attack with a close combat weapon. HoW is not a close combat attack with a close combat weapon, it is a special attack that is used when charging an enemy unit. There is a huge difference. Just because the weapon in question is a part of your model's body does not mean it is not a weapon for the purpose of this discussion. If your special rules involving close combat weapons could be used there would be no need to add that the HoW attack is made at user str and ap- because you would already know what your str and ap would be. If this was considered a close combat attack the wording would have said "This is an automatic hit that is resolved at Initiative 10." Why did they specify the str and ap of this attack? Because it is not a normal close combat attack but a special attack made with special rules, and those special rules are limited to what is written under that special rule.

Like I said earlier, the HoW attack is the impact of the charge not an attack they do when they get there.

False. According to the Tyranid codex all of my close combat attacks have Rending. Nothing is mentioned restricting it to weapons.

DevianID: when you say "profile" what do you mean other than the attacks profile? Which, of course, Rending doesn't alter.

My search isn't working, so I'm not sure of this has been mentioned, but the Smash SR specifically exclude HoW attacks from using its enhanced AP2. The Rending SR does not make this same exclusion. Possible prescedence and demonstration of intent here?

So out of (idle) curiosity, I have some way of giving a pyrovre HoW (hypothetically of course). It has a special rule that states it's close combat attacks ignore armour saves. So would HoW ignore Armour saves?

The same way that Shrikes with Boneswords ignore armor saves, yes.

Oh BTW, rigeld, in case you didn't ntice, they finally fixed the Spre Cloud typo in the FAQ.

You had me excited. I thought by "fixed the typo" you meant "removed that question entirely because it's slowed"

Wait, what typo??

I thought you meant the 'lose attacks' BS....

coredump wrote:Wait, what typo??

I thought you meant the 'lose attacks' BS....

Before the latest update, the Venomthrope FAQ said "Spre Cloud" and had a few other misspelled words.

Once again, 40k is a permissive ruleset... meaning, if it doesn't say you can then you can't. It doesn't say you can use USR's then you can't. No rending, no preferred enemy, no fleshbane or armorbane, etc.
As a person who plays destroyer lords and wraiths... I hope I'm wrong.

They should have included the statline for a cc weapon

Range S AP Type
Hammer of Wrath Attack - user - Melee
Chariot HoWA - 6 - Melee D6

Anpu-adom wrote:Once again, 40k is a permissive ruleset... meaning, if it doesn't say you can then you can't. It doesn't say you can use USR's then you can't. No rending, no preferred enemy, no fleshbane or armorbane, etc.


They should have included the statline for a cc weapon

Range S AP Type
Hammer of Wrath Attack - user - Melee
Chariot HoWA - 6 - Melee D6

Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

So along that train of thought a Monstrous Creature has AP2 on his HoW attack and not AP- ?

rigeld2 wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:Once again, 40k is a permissive ruleset... meaning, if it doesn't say you can then you can't. It doesn't say you can use USR's then you can't. No rending, no preferred enemy, no fleshbane or armorbane, etc.


They should have included the statline for a cc weapon

Range S AP Type
Hammer of Wrath Attack - user - Melee
Chariot HoWA - 6 - Melee D6

Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

Find where it says that Hammer of Wrath is a close combat attack. RAW just says 'it makes one additional Attack', while during close combat... it doesn't say that it's a close combat attack.

The rules say that my HT has 'preferred enemy' and gets to reroll all 1's on failed wound rolls.

So why would that not apply? Permissive ruleset means it would apply (as would rending if on the model).

Anpu-adom wrote:Find where it says that Hammer of Wrath is a close combat attack. RAW just says 'it makes one additional Attack', while during close combat... it doesn't say that it's a close combat attack.

Yakface addressed that earlier in the thread. If you want to continue along that line of argument, you might start by addressing his points.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

So along that train of thought a Monstrous Creature has AP2 on his HoW attack and not AP- ?

Read the HoW rule.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

So along that train of thought a Monstrous Creature has AP2 on his HoW attack and not AP- ?

No. Smash gives me AP2. HoW specifies AP -. If HoW specified that no special rules applied, I'd be down. It doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yes, 40k is a permissive ruleset.
I have permission to use Rending on all close combat attacks.
HoW is a close combat attack.
Find the rule that denies my permission to use Rending.

So along that train of thought a Monstrous Creature has AP2 on his HoW attack and not AP- ?

No. Smash gives me AP2. HoW specifies AP -. If HoW specified that no special rules applied, I'd be down. It doesn't.

No.

Smash Specifies that it does not function during HOW attacks.

Smash's AP vs HOW's AP is the single worst comparison of APs one could use to argue against other Special Rules coming into use alongside HOW.