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For the RAI peoples or fluff bunnies, if you want to justify it, standing in front of an open portal where the other end explodes may cause nasty feedbackness and even wreckage flying through the gateway striking them on the head.

Or somesuch.

Compel wrote:For the RAI peoples or fluff bunnies, if you want to justify it, standing in front of an open portal where the other end explodes may cause nasty feedbackness and even wreckage flying through the gateway striking them on the head.

Or somesuch.

rigeld2 wrote:They're standing at a portal, waiting to step through. Feedback caused by the crash surges through the portal, causing a small explosion. The leftover Necrons are ordered through a different portal and materialize at the board edge.

Great minds? :-)

You assume this portal is open all the time i don't

In the 5th this rule hurt the Necrons as they could not fly up to an objective last turn and still have units contesting if the Scythe was wreaked unlike every other skimmer /Flyer

Now in the 6th where this rule actually benefits the Necrons meaning they are safe until put on the board everyone looks for RAW interpretations to remove that advantage .

This is a simple case of you cant do that its not fair .

snakel wrote:You assume this portal is open all the time i don't

In the 5th this rule hurt the Necrons as they could not fly up to an objective last turn and still have units contesting if the Scythe was wreaked unlike every other skimmer /Flyer

Now in the 6th where this rule actually benefits the Necrons meaning they are safe until put on the board everyone looks for RAW interpretations to remove that advantage .

This is a simple case of you cant do that its not fair .

That's absolutely false. In 6th the rules changed. We now apply those rules.
You're still asserting bias and trying to use fluff to override actual rules.
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion like that.

If you can provide a rule supporting your viewpoint, it'd be great to see.

Honestly people arguing that they don't disembark are missing the point. Damage occurs before and regardless of disembarkation.

This is true for non-flyer transports as well. These rules are found on p80 and p81.

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:You assume this portal is open all the time i don't

In the 5th this rule hurt the Necrons as they could not fly up to an objective last turn and still have units contesting if the Scythe was wreaked unlike every other skimmer /Flyer

Now in the 6th where this rule actually benefits the Necrons meaning they are safe until put on the board everyone looks for RAW interpretations to remove that advantage .

This is a simple case of you cant do that its not fair .

That's absolutely false. In 6th the rules changed. We now apply those rules.
You're still asserting bias and trying to use fluff to override actual rules.
It's impossible to have a constructive discussion like that.

If you can provide a rule supporting your viewpoint, it'd be great to see.

Heres the rule .RAW means exactly that and i and many others read those rules differently to you


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jms40k wrote:Honestly people arguing that they don't disembark are missing the point. Damage occurs before and regardless of disembarkation.

This is true for non-flyer transports as well. These rules are found on p80 and p81.

You are not nor ever disembarking you are being thrown out of the flyer as it has exploded hence placing surviving models 2D6 from the normal point you would place models getting out of a flyer .

Show me the rule where it say these models are disembarking after a crash and burn !!!

if you believe that is disembarking then i would not like to see you get off a plane

I figure i may was well add my 2 bits. I agree with the 'The models go back into reserve rather than take the hit' crowd, and here is why:

1) Necron Codex (Nightscythe rules): If the model is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve.
2) 6th Ed BRB (dedicated transport Embarking rules): ...forced to disembark if their Transport is destroyed...
3) 6th Ed BRB (Flyer rules): If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast
marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.


So we have a nightscythe flying along, mind it's own business, and out of nowhere *bam* it gets blown out of the sky by a skyfire quadgun on a bastion. At this point a few things try to happen, based on the rules above.

1) The nightscythe is destroyed so the models within are placed in reserve.
2) The models within are forced to disembark.
3) The models within take str 10 'no armor saves allowed' hits and are then placed within coherancy of the blast marker.


The flier 'crash and burn' rules supersede the regular transport rules. (advanced trumps basic) so rule 3 trumps rule 2. However the 'takes a str 10 hit 'and' goes back into reserve camp seems to be applying 'half' of the third rule, and ignoring the other half. Given that Codex trumps Basic Rule Book, shouldn't the entire 'crash and burn' transport rule be superseded by the Necron codex 'Nightscythe embarked unit go into reserve' rule?

What you folk are saying is just as rules-valid as saying they go into reserve without the hit and 'then' can deploy within 3 inches of the blast marker for the downed plane. You don't get to cherry-pick a portion of a the 'Crash & Burn' rules that you prefer and ignore the other half, either the rule for it is in effect or it is not.

you have to remember the necron codex was written with 6th edition in mind. Rules as written says if there are embarked and the night scythe is destroyed the models are not allowed to disembark but must enter reserves(not allowed to deep strike)

in the BRB it says under explodes and wrecked vehicles "the vehicle is destroyed"

perfectly clear that they are allowed to enter reserves

Neorealist wrote:
So we have a nightscythe flying along, mind it's own business, and out of nowhere *bam* it gets blown out of the sky by a skyfire quadgun on a bastion. At this point a few things try to happen, based on the rules above.

1) The nightscythe is destroyed so the models within are placed in reserve.
2) The models within are forced to disembark.
3) The models within take str 10 'no armor saves allowed' hits and are then placed within coherancy of the blast marker.

Here's the problem. The rule book specifically says to take the damage then place the models. Your order is wrong.


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Ub3rb3n wrote:you have to remember the necron codex was written with 6th edition in mind. Rules as written says if there are embarked and the night scythe is destroyed the models are not allowed to disembark but must enter reserves(not allowed to deep strike)

in the BRB it says under explodes and wrecked vehicles "the vehicle is destroyed"

perfectly clear that they are allowed to enter reserves

They enter reserves instead of being placed, sure. It doesn't matter, though, because damage happens before the "forced disembarkation" or placing of models occurs.

jms40k wrote:

They enter reserves instead of being placed, sure. It doesn't matter, though, because damage happens before the "forced disembarkation" or placing of models occurs.

When does the crash and burn rule mention disembarkation or forced disembarkation ?

They are thrown from the flyer hence the damage or Str 10 hits

If the Necron troops embarked upon a Night Scythe take damage, then the entire third paragraph of fluff in the Night Scythe entry is completely irrelevent. You might as well take a sharpie to your codex and redact that paragraph.

Also, the codex says if the HS is destroyed, the units go straight into reserves.

Consider the following:

The order is Wrecked/Explodes>back to reserves> blast marker scatter>S6/S10 hits. Why? Because The codex says that once the NS is destroyed, the units go into reserves. There's no lag between "boom" and resverves. When one happens, the other instantly happens. After the Flyer is destroyed via wrecked/explodes result, the large blast marker placement happens before the S10 hits do, though the S6 hits and S10 hits occur at the same time.

Neorealist wrote:I figure i may was well add my 2 bits. I agree with the 'The models go back into reserve rather than take the hit' crowd, and here is why:

1) Necron Codex (Nightscythe rules): If the model is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve.
2) 6th Ed BRB (dedicated transport Embarking rules): ...forced to disembark if their Transport is destroyed...
3) 6th Ed BRB (Flyer rules): If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast
marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.


So we have a nightscythe flying along, mind it's own business, and out of nowhere *bam* it gets blown out of the sky by a skyfire quadgun on a bastion. At this point a few things try to happen, based on the rules above.

1) The nightscythe is destroyed so the models within are placed in reserve.
2) The models within are forced to disembark.
3) The models within take str 10 'no armor saves allowed' hits and are then placed within coherancy of the blast marker.


The flier 'crash and burn' rules supersede the regular transport rules. (advanced trumps basic) so rule 3 trumps rule 2. However the 'takes a str 10 hit 'and' goes back into reserve camp seems to be applying 'half' of the third rule, and ignoring the other half. Given that Codex trumps Basic Rule Book, shouldn't the entire 'crash and burn' transport rule be superseded by the Necron codex 'Nightscythe embarked unit go into reserve' rule?

What you folk are saying is just as rules-valid as saying they go into reserve without the hit and 'then' can deploy within 3 inches of the blast marker for the downed plane. You don't get to cherry-pick a portion of a the 'Crash & Burn' rules that you prefer and ignore the other half, either the rule for it is in effect or it is not.

Someone beat me to it! This is exactly right.

snakel wrote:

jms40k wrote:

They enter reserves instead of being placed, sure. It doesn't matter, though, because damage happens before the "forced disembarkation" or placing of models occurs.

When does the crash and burn rule mention disembarkation or forced disembarkation ?

They are thrown from the flyer hence the damage or Str 10 hits

"...or placing of models occurs..."

Just read the updated necron codex for 6th and you will see they don't take any hits. you can get this digtialy or from GW or wait for your game store to sell out on necron codex's and get the new ones in

Really? updated necron codex in print and not horribly expensive Apple-only digital versions? That'd be swell.

captain-crud wrote:Just read the updated necron codex for 6th and you will see they don't take any hits. you can get this digtialy or from GW or wait for your game store to sell out on necron codex's and get the new ones in

Can you quote anything relevant?

freind has it on his Ipad covered lot things for example the axes with shields aint axes and there ap 3 in profile. The night flyer says models are counted as being left in reseerves from beging of game if it is destroyed. cant do aculty qoute off head right now. so basically way it reads if plane is destroyed they have never ented game so I am thinking they cant be hit by anything.

Dont have Ipad so I cant get the download also if you unistall l the marines digital codex and reinstall its updated for 6th.

'The night flyer says models are counted as being left in reserves from beginning of game if it is destroyed.'

This would certainly solve the issue as they would never count as being embarked on the NS, of course thats if it is true and i hope it is.
If you could check with your friend and put up the exact quote to stop the circular motion of yes they do, no they dont arguments we are currently experiencing it would be greatly appreciated, many thanks.

So my units are now safe in the nightscythe as they always were (sorry to the its not fair so i will use RAW to twist it my way brigade)

Glad we sorted that out :

snakel wrote: (sorry to the its not fair so i will use RAW to twist it my way brigade)

Please stop falsely representing the entire other side of the argument.

It doesn't occur to you that if they have to change the rules in an errataed codex, that RAW before that errata your position is incorrect?

I have the iPad Cron dex--and it states;

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

AgeOfEgos wrote:I have the iPad Cron dex--and it states;

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

So... basically the same?

jms40k wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:I have the iPad Cron dex--and it states;

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

So... basically the same?

I see no difference--nothing under the unit entries either. Although the Hyperphase sword is clarified as Str: As User AP: 3.

So... False alarm? They still take the hits?

rigeld2 wrote:So... False alarm? They still take the hits?

*Shrug*, I think everyone has made convincing arguments both ways--it will need a FAQ. I'm inclined to believe that they do not take the hit--as the Reserve notation, that they spent a paragraph on--would be pretty strange if everyone takes a Str. 10 hit with no save. It also brings up other questions in my mind (Reanimation Protocol--wound allocation--since they cannot be placed per the mainbook rule are they technically destroyed by RAW, etc).

Probably something to end the debate over and just wait for INAT or GW (So, basically the INAT)

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote: (sorry to the its not fair so i will use RAW to twist it my way brigade)

Please stop falsely representing the entire other side of the argument.

It doesn't occur to you that if they have to change the rules in an errataed codex, that RAW before that errata your position is incorrect?

Automatically Appended Next Post:


No it occurs to me some people are so wrapped up ion RAW is LAW they cant see the wood for the trees hence is some cases GW have to change wording to show them the wood

The game has RAW and RAI it is up to the players to choose how to interpret both, you and many others automatically say no you cant no matter what RAW and RAI insinuate .

What should be happening is you state you read RAW this way and would play it as such. not NO you cant there's a full stop here and an exclamation mark there so you are wrong .

Some times RAW needs RIA to be made clear as RAI need RAW to do the same . state what you believe and job done then after several opinions have been post people can choose to go with the majority or not

Raw states they are in reserve, models in reserve cant be hit or take any part in the game till they are on the board while some choose to ignore RAI and logic, if they used all 3 they would come to the same conclusion no hits after crash and burn

So if they take the hit do they take a LD test while in reserve ,do they then if they fail that test ,become destroyed as they are already off the board, your argument relies on people breaking the rules by taking LD test and such for units not in play which you cant do .

Following RAI and RAW after what happens can also tell us if the initial action was right and in this case everything points to taking the hits as wrong .

No, people following the tenets of this sub forum only consider RAW.

RAW they take the hits. Yes, that means other questions pop up - that does not mean its incorrect RAW. If you are bringing intent into the argument, say so. Instead you called everyone on the other side biased Necron haters that just didn't want to see the Night Scythe be good.

In general, models in reserve can't be effected by anything on the board. Models in a Night Scythe aren't in reserve until the flyer blows up. Therefore there is no rule to be broken.

By RAW? they do not take the hits. RAW = Necron Codex overrules the 'Crash and Burn' transport rules, so they end up in reserve instead of taking the hits 'and' being placed on the table 'or' being removed as casualties for not being placed on the table.

Question for you: If you'd like to continue to apply only part of the flier rules to the hypothetical situation, why are you neglecting to add that last part to it? You know, the part that says that any models which cannot be placed on the table are removed as casualties? Obviously a unit in reserve cannot be placed that way (or at least it'd require mixing up both the rules in an unusual fashion), so that would mean (using your logic) that they should all be destroyed each and every time a necron nightscythe suffers that fate?

rigeld2 wrote:No, people following the tenets of this sub forum only consider RAW.

RAW they take the hits. Yes, that means other questions pop up - that does not mean its incorrect RAW. If you are bringing intent into the argument, say so. Instead you called everyone on the other side biased Necron haters that just didn't want to see the Night Scythe be good.

In general, models in reserve can't be effected by anything on the board. Models in a Night Scythe aren't in reserve until the flyer blows up. Therefore there is no rule to be broken.

LOL RAW + what happens next by RAW = breaking the rules by RAW, so which part of RAW are we allowed to use if 1 rule called in to action by another is broken by the first even if as you say its RAW

The flyer rules tell us ' If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.'

The NS rule is 'If the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark but instead enters reserve.

The unit is within the NS as they have to be embarked to use it as stated quite cleary under the transport rules pg78 on numerous occasions, since the unit is embarked you take the S10 hit with no armour saves as the Flyer rule emphasises this first before the disembarking part (note the Survivors are placed, so the hit comes first before the disembarking), however after the hits are taken the NS rule then takes precedence because instead of disembarking as would normally be required the unit enters into reserve instead.

I would also note that since they would be removed as casualties due to the S10 hit while they were embarked (classed as on the table) they would also get their RP at the end of that turns shooting phase and would add any who got back up to the their unit that is now in reserve, RP is only negated if they made a fallback move which the NS rule is not classed as, so in my opinion and based on the wording they would get it unless the unit was completely wiped out by the S10 hit or only a character was left.