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Neorealist wrote:By RAW? they do not take the hits. RAW = Necron Codex overrules the 'Crash and Burn' transport rules, so they end up in reserve instead of taking the hits 'and' being placed on the table 'or' being removed as casualties for not being placed on the table.

Question for you: If you'd like to continue to apply only part of the flier rules to the hypothetical situation, why are you neglecting to add that last part to it? You know, the part that says that any models which cannot be placed on the table are removed as casualties? Obviously a unit in reserve cannot be placed that way (or at least it'd require mixing up both the rules in an unusual fashion), so that would mean (using your logic) that they should all be destroyed each and every time a necron nightscythe suffers that fate?

By RAW the codex overrides only rules that are directly contradicted by the rulebook. The rulebook tells you that you place models after taking the hits. The NS rule ONLY tells you what you do INSTEAD of placing the models.

ONLY the part which directly contradicts the BRB is ignored.

RAW, you take the hits. That is the correct, current rule. In addition until we get a page and para of this supposed "new" necron codex, or a FAQ is released errata-ing these rules, that is the rules as it stands.

Userarm wrote:The flyer rules tell us ' If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.'

The NS rule is 'If the NS is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark but instead enters reserve.

The unit is within the NS as they have to be embarked to use it as stated quite cleary under the transport rules pg78 on numerous occasions, since the unit is embarked you take the S10 hit with no armour saves as the Flyer rule emphasises this first before the disembarking part (note the Survivors are placed, so the hit comes first before the disembarking), however after the hits are taken the NS rule then takes precedence because instead of disembarking as would normally be required the unit enters into reserve instead.

I would also note that since they would be removed as casualties due to the S10 hit while they were embarked (classed as on the table) they would also get their RP at the end of that turns shooting phase and would add any who got back up to the their unit that is now in reserve, RP is only negated if they made a fallback move which the NS rule is not classed as, so in my opinion and based on the wording they would get it unless the unit was completely wiped out by the S10 hit or only a character was left.

So you are happy that they don't take a LD test if they lose 25% which happens at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ,you are also happy that they get their RP roll at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ?

If so then you are happy to break the rules by RAW to allow them to take tests and other such abilities they may have when they are not in play .

By your logic they would be destroyed no matter how many lived, as RAW states you place the models where the blast scatters any models not able to be placed are destroyed ,you are picking where to enact the NE special rule with no basis or RAW ruling to do so .

No where in the Crash and burn rule does it say disembarkation or emergency disembarkation ,you are choosing to use it since you wont accept a unit in a flyer is being thrown out not disembarking .

Logic would dictate flyer goes bang unit inside gets scattered to the wind yet the Necrons rule says they just go in to reserve ,so flyer goes bang Necrons are immediately in reserve you then say a unit in reserve suffer hits which is not allowed by RAW!!!

Disembarkation states models must be within 1" of the transport doors or its base yet the Crash and burn rule says place models withing 3" of where the blast markers final position is which could be anything up to 6" away and possibly more IE they are not the same thing .

Last you cant by any stretch of RAW or imagination disembark something that is no longer there as it has been blown up !!!!!!

It is not possible for the models to take the S10 hits because the invasion beam is destroyed and would no longer function.

Userarm wrote:I would also note that since they would be removed as casualties due to the S10 hit while they were embarked (classed as on the table) they would also get their RP at the end of that turns shooting phase and would add any who got back up to the their unit that is now in reserve, RP is only negated if they made a fallback move which the NS rule is not classed as, so in my opinion and based on the wording they would get it unless the unit was completely wiped out by the S10 hit or only a character was left.

Even though you are allowed to make the RP rolls, you automatically lose the models, because they cannot be placed according to RP's own rules.

snakel wrote:So you are happy that they don't take a LD test if they lose 25% which happens at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ,you are also happy that they get their RP roll at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ?

If so then you are happy to break the rules by RAW to allow them to take tests and other such abilities they may have when they are not in play .

By your logic they would be destroyed no matter how many lived, as RAW states you place the models where the blast scatters any models not able to be placed are destroyed ,you are picking where to enact the NE special rule with no basis or RAW ruling to do so .

No where in the Crash and burn rule does it say disembarkation or emergency disembarkation ,you are choosing to use it since you wont accept a unit in a flyer is being thrown out not disembarking .

Logic would dictate flyer goes bang unit inside gets scattered to the wind yet the Necrons rule says they just go in to reserve ,so flyer goes bang Necrons are immediately in reserve you then say a unit in reserve suffer hits which is not allowed by RAW!!!

Disembarkation states models must be within 1" of the transport doors or its base yet the Crash and burn rule says place models withing 3" of where the blast markers final position is which could be anything up to 6" away and possibly more IE they are not the same thing .

Last you cant by any stretch of RAW or imagination disembark something that is no longer there as it has been blown up !!!!!!

We are discussing RAW on this forum. If you do not, maybe you should take your case to some other (part of this) forum?

Mandor wrote:

Userarm wrote:I would also note that since they would be removed as casualties due to the S10 hit while they were embarked (classed as on the table) they would also get their RP at the end of that turns shooting phase and would add any who got back up to the their unit that is now in reserve, RP is only negated if they made a fallback move which the NS rule is not classed as, so in my opinion and based on the wording they would get it unless the unit was completely wiped out by the S10 hit or only a character was left.

Even though you are allowed to make the RP rolls, you automatically lose the models, because they cannot be placed according to RP's own rules.

snakel wrote:So you are happy that they don't take a LD test if they lose 25% which happens at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ,you are also happy that they get their RP roll at the end of the phase when they are now out of play ?

If so then you are happy to break the rules by RAW to allow them to take tests and other such abilities they may have when they are not in play .

By your logic they would be destroyed no matter how many lived, as RAW states you place the models where the blast scatters any models not able to be placed are destroyed ,you are picking where to enact the NE special rule with no basis or RAW ruling to do so .

No where in the Crash and burn rule does it say disembarkation or emergency disembarkation ,you are choosing to use it since you wont accept a unit in a flyer is being thrown out not disembarking .

Logic would dictate flyer goes bang unit inside gets scattered to the wind yet the Necrons rule says they just go in to reserve ,so flyer goes bang Necrons are immediately in reserve you then say a unit in reserve suffer hits which is not allowed by RAW!!!

Disembarkation states models must be within 1" of the transport doors or its base yet the Crash and burn rule says place models withing 3" of where the blast markers final position is which could be anything up to 6" away and possibly more IE they are not the same thing .

Last you cant by any stretch of RAW or imagination disembark something that is no longer there as it has been blown up !!!!!!

We are discussing RAW on this forum. If you do not, maybe you should take your case to some other (part of this) forum?

Sorry i didn't know stating RAW several times in my post and using RAW to back up my argument was not discussing RAW

Except you havent used RAW, just stated the phrase.

The rulebook says you use codex > rulebook when the rules contradict

You have 2 parts of crash and burn, of which only one is contradicted by the necron codex.

You have no permission to ignore the S10 part, so you may not do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you havent used RAW, just stated the phrase.

The rulebook says you use codex > rulebook when the rules contradict

You have 2 parts of crash and burn, of which only one is contradicted by the necron codex.

You have no permission to ignore the S10 part, so you may not do so.

So if i use RAW to show that if you stick to your interpretation of RAW regarding Necrons and Nightscythes you will then go on to break several other rules If you continue to use RAW .

1 units that suffer 25%casualties must take a LD test at the end of the phase RAW

2 Disembarkation rules stated above using RAW

3 Crash and burn rules used above stating RAW

4 Reserves take no part in the game until they enter play through the reserve rule be it DS out flanking or just moving on the board RAW

so if i am not using RAW what am i using ?

1. Vehicle destroyed
2. Embarked unit suffers damage
3. Unit disembarks

This is the order of things. Currently the Night Scythe rules replaces step 3.
No rules will break, if the unit suffers 25% casualties they are Fearless (p78) at the time the damage occurs.
This may not fit the fluff, and personally I think this will be FAQ'd to prevent the damage soon, but as it stands the unit will suffer damage.

As bad as it sounds, fluff is not a valid argument in this thread. Although in fluff necrons arent in the transport they are for game purposes, just like in fluff scarabs replicate when they kill something but in game they dont. RAW the hit is taken before a disembark action, therefor the hit is taken before the necrons are placed in reserve..

snakel wrote:

So if i use RAW to show that if you stick to your interpretation of RAW regarding Necrons and Nightscythes you will then go on to break several other rules If you continue to use RAW .

And? You have to realise that is NOT a rules argument - one rule being the written rule creating other problems isnt an auto pass to forget the written rule.

snakel wrote:
1 units that suffer 25%casualties must take a LD test at the end of the phase RAW

Cannot take part in the game, so cannot take a check. More specific rule overriding the more general rule

snakel wrote:
2 Disembarkation rules stated above using RAW

Nope, just an assertion. If claiming "RAW" please actually quote some rules.

snakel wrote:
3 Crash and burn rules used above stating RAW

As above

snakel wrote:
4 Reserves take no part in the game until they enter play through the reserve rule be it DS out flanking or just moving on the board RAW

Yes, so they take no [part in the game *after* they are put in Reserves. Which is AFTER they take the hits.

snakel wrote:
so if i am not using RAW what am i using ?

Currently youre not actually using rules, just making assertions. Please follow the rules of this forum

grendel083 wrote:1. Vehicle destroyed
2. Embarked unit suffers damage
3. Unit disembarks

You forgot 4. Any unit which cannot be placed is removed as a casualty.

I'm not sure why people keep ignoring that part, but it's as much a part of the 'Crash and Burn' rules as the strength 10 hit and just as applicable to the strange amalgomation of rules people seem to be trying to create with the necron nightscythe rules and the flier 'crash and burn' ones.

nosferatu1001 wrote:By RAW the codex overrides only rules that are directly contradicted by the rulebook. The rulebook tells you that you place models after taking the hits. The NS rule ONLY tells you what you do INSTEAD of placing the models.

ONLY the part which directly contradicts the BRB is ignored.

RAW, you take the hits. That is the correct, current rule. In addition until we get a page and para of this supposed "new" necron codex, or a FAQ is released errata-ing these rules, that is the rules as it stands.

The entire rule directly contradicts what is in the BRB if any part of it does. There isn't (to my awareness) any precident to apply only 'some' of a rule if half of the rule is invalidated by either a more advanced or codex rule which states otherwise.



What i contend is that the necron nightscythe rule about placing the unit in reserve 'replaces' the entire section of the crash and burn rules referring to what normally happens to passenger in zooming flyers since Codex trumps Basic.

Ergo, the 'strength 10 no-armor-saves-allowed hit, the 'place the remaining models within 3 inches of the final location of the blast marker', and the 'remove any models which cannot be placed as casualties' parts of the 'crash and burn' rules No Longer Happen. but are instead replaced in their entirety with the nightscythe rules.

What i'd like to see from folk who believe otherwise is some rules support for dissecting the 'crash and burn' transport rules and only using the 'strength 10 hit' part of it and nothing else...

I like your argument and will repeat it should a problem arise. Should at least give a right to roll off until a FAQ clarifies.

"The entire rule directly contradicts what is in the BRB if any part of it does"


Rules quote for this assertion please. Given it is the entire basis of your argument.

Mordrak DS without scatter, on the first turn. Does this mean we ignore the DS rules entirely, as his rule contradicts the DS rule, or does he only ignore one part of the DS rule? Reserves do not turn up unil turn 2 - does his rule about turning up from reserves in turn 1 replace the entire Reserves rule, or jst the part it contradicts.

There are many, many examples of partial replacements.

Certainly.

6th Edition Main Book - page 7 wrote:Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain siruations. If, however, that rnodel has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.

You'll note that the above rule does not make blanket provisions for only partially applying a rule, or applying only 'part' of a given rule. Either the basic rule applies or the entirety of the conflicting advanced one does. You do not have permission to combine them unless the advanced rule specifically says you can. (like with Mordrak and the Deepstriking and Reserves rules)

On a related note: there are many advanced rules which incorporate aspects of (and refer to) basic ones in order to provide their intended functionality. In this case, the nightscythes do not.

I apologize for getting qoute wrong from memoery my bad atleast i rembered the hypersword right lol

Neorealist wrote:Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules

Except you haven't proven that there are any contradicting rules.

i believe i have, but i'll happily restate my argument.

Rule 1 (the flier 'Crash and Burn' transports rule)
If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes... ...If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.


Rule 2 (The Nightscythe rule)
If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve...

They both directly contradict in that they both try to indicate what to do with and where to place models after the nightscythe is destroyed; as the models cannot both be placed into reserves 'and' be placed on the board after being effected by the str 10 hit.

The Night Scythe rule overrides the "cannot be placed" rule - as the unit is now in Reserve, that sentence cannot apply.

But they take the Str10 hit before being put into reserves.

Also, yellow is really hard to read on the mobile theme. Really hard.

Neorealist wrote:i believe i have, but i'll happily restate my argument.

Rule 1 (the flier 'Crash and Burn' transports rule)
If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes... ...If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.


Rule 2 (The Nightscythe rule)
If the Night Scythe is destroyed, the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve...

They both directly contradict in that they both try to indicate what to do with and where to place models after the nightscythe is destroyed; as the models cannot both be placed into reserves 'and' be placed on the board after being effected by the str 10 hit.

Man, I love it when I post something, then it's completely ignored. So fun.

Anyway, the NS rule says that when it is destroyed, the models go into reserves. They don't wait five minutes for you to roll for scatter and to-wound, they simply go into reserves right away. Simple as that. Crash and Burn is not relevant, as there is nothing inside the NS by the time scatter is rolled for.

Hehe, sorry if i missed one of your posts McNinja. From what you seem to be saying it looks like we agree on the results, if not necessarily the reasons for it.

McNinja wrote:Anyway, the NS rule says that when it is destroyed, the models go into reserves. They don't wait five minutes for you to roll for scatter and to-wound, they simply go into reserves right away. Simple as that. Crash and Burn is not relevant, as there is nothing inside the NS by the time scatter is rolled for.

that's not what it says.

It says that they are not allowed to disembark, rather that they enter reserves.
What happens before the unit disembarks from a wrecked flyer?

Neorealist wrote:Hehe, sorry if i missed one of your posts McNinja. From what you seem to be saying it looks like we agree on the results, if not necessarily the reasons for it.

Sorry, I didn't mean you necessarily

rigeld2 wrote:

McNinja wrote:Anyway, the NS rule says that when it is destroyed, the models go into reserves. They don't wait five minutes for you to roll for scatter and to-wound, they simply go into reserves right away. Simple as that. Crash and Burn is not relevant, as there is nothing inside the NS by the time scatter is rolled for.

that's not what it says.

It says that they are not allowed to disembark, rather that they enter reserves.
What happens before the unit disembarks from a wrecked flyer?

Considering I do not have an updated codex, the NS Transport rule says that if the NS is destroyed, the embarked troops cannot disembark and instead enter reserves. They also cannot Deep Strike.

Though this subforum deals wholly in RAW, this rule is (fairly obviously) extremely fluffy. Why would the troops now in reserves not be able to Deep Strike? The third paragraph tells you exactly why. As I said before in my completely missed post, forcing units embarked on a NS to take damage completely ignores the third paragraph in the NS entry. You may as well take a sharpie to your codex and redact that paragraph, because it describes the exact function of how a NS operates. There is a reason it has a rule called "invasion beam," there is a reason why models that enter reserves by means of their NS exploding cannot Deep Strike, and it's in that paragraph.

Honestly, though, the Transport rule does not aptly describe the function of a NS. A better function would have been allowing you to take any unit out of reserves (following the transport restrictions it lists in the NS entry) as if they had disembarked from a vehicle, following the Invasion Beam rule. That way nothing is actually in the NS, but things can "disembark" from it. Alas, Mat Ward didn't write it that way, so here we are, arguing over rules.

Yes, you should absolutely 100% unequivocally ignore a fluff paragraph when having a rules discussion.

There's where your fault lies. You continue to argue RAI and fluff instead of trying to offer rules support.

The rules for the NS all seem to be written rather poorly.

There's also talk of, in the RAW about embarking into a NS.

However, the BRB states that you can't embark into a flyer that isn't hovering.

NS can't hoover, so why would the rules speak about being able to embark INTO a NS?

Edit: never mind, it looks like the FAQ completely changed that entry. My mistake.

Hey all, I am a bit confused here.

In the flyer rules, when a transport is destroyed there is an order that things happen. Now, the argument that the "takes the s10 hit" side seems to be saying is that:

The transport is destroyed.
You scatter a large blast template.
The embarked unit takes a s10 hit.
The embarked unit is placed within 3 inches of the blast.

Now, in this thread the new NS rule was quoted saying the unit goes into reserves when the transport is destroyed. Wouldnt the unit be sent to reserve BEFORE you scatter a large blast template, as after the flyer is destroyed but before you take damage there is a template to place?

Also, you never disembark from a destroyed transport in 6th, you are instead placed within 3 inchs of a blast marker. So the new wording of the NS quoted makes more sense now.

rigeld2 wrote:The Night Scythe rule overrides the "cannot be placed" rule - as the unit is now in Reserve, that sentence cannot apply.

But they take the Str10 hit before being put into reserves.

Also, yellow is really hard to read on the mobile theme. Really hard.

That's not possible as the invasion beam would no longer work. I have read your so called fluff explanations as to why they would take the hit but this is in no official. The rules are based upon the actual fluff not how you want it to be.

DevianID wrote:Hey all, I am a bit confused here.

In the flyer rules, when a transport is destroyed there is an order that things happen. Now, the argument that the "takes the s10 hit" side seems to be saying is that:

The transport is destroyed.
You scatter a large blast template.
The embarked unit takes a s10 hit.
The embarked unit is placed within 3 inches of the blast.

Now, in this thread the new NS rule was quoted saying the unit goes into reserves when the transport is destroyed. Wouldnt the unit be sent to reserve BEFORE you scatter a large blast template, as after the unit is destroyed but before you take damage there is a template to place?

Also, you never disembark from a destroyed transport in 6th, you are instead placed within 3 inchs of a blast marker. So the new wording of the NS quoted makes more sense now.

That's a pretty good point for the no hit side I'd think.

From page 81 of the Warhammer 40K 6th edition rulebook, numbered in the order that they appear by myself:

1. If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed.

2. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency.

3. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.

The rules for the Night Scythe where you place the unit in reserve instead of on the table would come after the unit takes damage, not before.

Ghaz wrote:From page 81 of the Warhammer 40K 6th edition rulebook, numbered in the order that they appear by myself:

1. If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a Strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed.

2. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3" of the blast marker's final position and in unit coherency.

3. Any models that cannot be placed are removed as casualties.

The rules for the Night Scythe where you place the unit in reserve instead of on the table would come after the unit takes damage, not before.

Which is exactly my point. thanks for citing the rule before I had a chance to :-)

A) fluff doesn't mean anything - arguments based on the 3rd paragraph of fluff are useless.
B) the unit is embarked. Full stop. Not "well, they aren't in there" - that's fluff. Actual rules say the unit is embarked.
C) the transport explodes, causing the S10 hit. Then the unit goes into reserve.
D) the Necron iBook doesn't change the wording on this at all.

Seriously, ignoring the fluff argument, does the "no hit" side want to post some actual rules that back their position up?

Super simple.

Unit is embarked in the Night Scythe in reserve.

Night Scythe enters play, therefore, so does the unit embarked.

Night Scythe is shot down with embarked unit, by RAW, inside it.

By RAW, the unit takes the S10 hit first.

By RAW, they are then placed.

By codex, they are then put BACK INTO RESERVES.

By RAW, if they sustained 25% casualties, they must take a leadership test to see if they fall back. They are not on the table. and therefore, do not take the test.

By codex, after the leadership test, you may reanimate. For many reasons previously discussed, and most importantly, the unit is not on the table, the reanimation rolls are not allowed to take place.

Super simple. Yes, I believe the hit shouldn't take place. The necrons are advanced enough they can design a portal that would prevent this. Unfortunately, the rules do not support this. Fortunately, Scythes are still super-badass and are still totally relevant.