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katfude wrote:Super simple. Yes, I believe the hit shouldn't take place. The necrons are advanced enough they can design a portal that would prevent this. Unfortunately, the rules do not support this. Fortunately, Scythes are still super-badass and are still totally relevant.

Agreed 100%.

rigeld2 wrote:does the "no hit" side want to post some actual rules that back their position up?

Sure! As pointed out by the poster I quoted . . .

digital Necron Codex (provided by a previous poster) wrote:"If the Night Scythe is destroyed the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike).

pg. 81 wrote:If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, it's flaming debris rains down on the battlefield. Centre the large blast marker over the Flyer - it then scatters 2D6". And model under the blast marker's final position suffers a strength 6, AP - hit. The Flyer is then taken off the board. If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a strength 10 hit with no armour sames allowed.

If we're following the RAW and the order of operations on pg. 81 it'd go:

1) Flyer destroyed
2) unit enters reserve
3) large blast marker placed - scatters 2D6"
4) models under take str 6 AP - hit
5) Flyer taken off the board.

Except you're not quoting the relevant rules. The rules you quoted have absolutely nothing to do with when the unit leaves the Flier. Try the rules for Fliers that are also Transports that I already quoted.

Bylak wrote:
If we're following the RAW and the order of operations on pg. 81 it'd go:

1) Flyer destroyed
2) large blast marker placed - scatters 2D6"
3) models under take str 6 AP - hit
4) flyer is taken off the board
5) embarked unit takes s10 hit
6)embarked unit is placed within 3" of crater, but is instead placed into reserve due to codex

FTFY

You severely replaced the order of operations.

And that works great (splitting it into a sequence of rulings), if and only if you want to seperate the single 'crash and burn' transport rule into three or four separate sub-rules? and then apply the nightscythes' more advanced rules instead of the last two of them.

Unfortunately there is no (RAW) reason to do this as they are all listed as part of one rule, not several. They both try to do 'something' right when the vehicle explodes and you cannot both 'put a unit in reserves' and 'hit the unit a bunch of times, then put the unit on the table next to a blast marker, then kill any which you cannot place in this fashion' at the same time.

I still don't get this.

I know you WANT BEYOND ALL HOPE for the happy little robots to stay on the other side of the portal. Really, I do. I want my huggable little cuddle bunnies.

Please just follow the order of events. The book doesn't say "all this crap happens at the exact same time and you get to choose what happens first because you're a cool guy and I love you". It says this happens. This happens. This happens. Etc. The end. I have listed everything in the order that is was printed in the book.

The ONLY THING that codex entry supercedes is that instead of putting them on the table after everything else resolves per the rulebook, they go back to start and wait their turn.

katfude wrote:

The ONLY THING that codex entry supercedes is that instead of putting them on the table after everything else resolves per the rulebook, they go back to start and wait their turn.

What's worse is that they don't even pass go or collect $200.

As above.

Mordrak changes the DS rules - so you ignore the DS rules entirely, accoridng to some, as you are not allowed to split up the DS rule into the relevant parts.

McNinja wrote:

katfude wrote:

The ONLY THING that codex entry supercedes is that instead of putting them on the table after everything else resolves per the rulebook, they go back to start and wait their turn.

Funny thing is to watch how peoples digging like lawyers in the book and analyse word by word… , even if they know what the intentions (Rules as Intend) of the writers where… logically thinking, that rule is completely pointless if you play it as peoples read it (well in fact is still disputed how to play it)

…ask yourself, why would writer gave the Scythes this special rule, if not to avoid the 6ed S10 AP1 hit? At the end don’t forget the Necrons Codex is written by Super Duper Mat Ward and he does things like this (Read: PO)

IMHO, in situation where we can dispute what the rule actually says (RAW) vs Codex: the precedence should take Rules as Intend. At the end of the day in 95% of occasions when the FAQ comes out is clarifying that initial thinking (RAI) where correct, so making a fool of myself and defending something just because one Word / unclear sequence says this is (IMHO) pointless and childish.

Again this is my thinking, and if I engage Necrons, I will definitely allow to my opponent to move the squad back to reserves after destroying his Scythes without taking damage, just because: “It should be played that way (IMHO)”.

Anyway, my 2 cents to this thread, this’s “You Make da Call”, and this is how I am making it. So please be polite to me , accept my thinking and maybe take in consideration what I said.

Ghaz wrote:Except you're not quoting the relevant rules. The rules you quoted have absolutely nothing to do with when the unit leaves the Flier. Try the rules for Fliers that are also Transports that I already quoted.

Um, everyone else has been harping on about pg. 81 and how it applies to units taking the str 10 hit? You're right that I didn't quote the last half of the rule when it talks about the str 10 hit and units being placed within 3" of the wreck but that part of the rule isn't relevant to the point I was trying to make

katfude wrote:I still don't get this.

I know you WANT BEYOND ALL HOPE for the happy little robots to stay on the other side of the portal. Really, I do. I want my huggable little cuddle bunnies.

Please just follow the order of events. The book doesn't say "all this crap happens at the exact same time and you get to choose what happens first because you're a cool guy and I love you". It says this happens. This happens. This happens. Etc. The end. I have listed everything in the order that is was printed in the book.

The ONLY THING that codex entry supercedes is that instead of putting them on the table after everything else resolves per the rulebook, they go back to start and wait their turn.

I'm pretty sure that's the way I laid it out? It makes a lot more sense (especially with the revision to the digital version of the Necron codex) to consider the Night Scythe transport rule as an addition to the order of operations when a Flyer is going down.

When all is said and done though I agree with Mcninja as well on this one. The RAI and the background of the Night Scythe make it seem like GW's intention was for the transported unit to avoid the str 10 hit. That's the way I'd want to play it, but if my opponent disagrees as vehemently as some of you here then I'll play the game as if they do take the hit. Ultimately I think this is going to continue to be an issue until a FAQ comes out explicitly stating one way or the other what happens.

god.ra wrote:…ask yourself, why would writer gave the Scythes this special rule, if not to avoid the 6ed S10 AP1 hit?

a) doesn't matter
b) To fit the fluff
c) to protect the models that survive from being shot/assaulted

IMHO, in situation where we can dispute what the rule actually says (RAW) vs Codex: the precedence should take Rules as Intend. At the end of the day in 95% of occasions when the FAQ comes out is clarifying that initial thinking (RAI) where correct, so making a fool of myself and defending something just because one Word / unclear sequence says this is (IMHO) pointless and childish.

That's a false assumption - that your interpretation of RAI is the correct one.
Who would have ever guessed that SitW would've been FAQed not to affect units inside a transport?
Or that Spore Cloud would've not caused the initiative drop in assault because "it's not real terrain" - contrary to the actual 5th ed rules?

Neorealist wrote:And that works great (splitting it into a sequence of rulings), if and only if you want to seperate the single 'crash and burn' transport rule into three or four separate sub-rules? and then apply the nightscythes' more advanced rules instead of the last two of them. Unfortunately there is no (RAW) reason to do this as they are all listed as part of one rule, not several. They both try to do 'something' right when the vehicle explodes and you cannot both 'put a unit in reserves' and 'hit the unit a bunch of times, then put the unit on the table next to a blast marker, then kill any which you cannot place in this fashion' at the same time.

Yet that is how you do it with every single rule in the rulebook. Or are you telling us that all of the rules in the main rulebook are in no specific order and are a jumbled mess? I don't think so.

I feel like at this point this is no longer a discussion. We have come to re-stating the same points continuously and neither side is making headway with the other completly convinced that they are right. At this point the discussion is moot because a consensus is not going to be reached.

not sure if this has been said yet but if you look on page 7 of the 6th edition rule book, it talks about Basic Rules and Advance rules, and it states, that the advance rules are normaly located in the codex and advance rules take precedence over basic, so i'd say you follow the codex on a night scythe getting destroyed.

The argument is what in the basic rules is being replaced. Some people belive that the entire rule is replaced, others belive only the relating part is replaced.

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I feel like at this point this is no longer a discussion. We have come to re-stating the same points continuously and neither side is making headway with the other completly convinced that they are right. At this point the discussion is moot because a consensus is not going to be reached.

Except one side is stating rules, and the other side believes that fluff should win out.

oh when i get time i'll read all the postings from font to back, personaly i like the fluf but i would have to rule on "rules" even if they don't work in my favor,

rigeld2 wrote:

Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I feel like at this point this is no longer a discussion. We have come to re-stating the same points continuously and neither side is making headway with the other completly convinced that they are right. At this point the discussion is moot because a consensus is not going to be reached.

Except one side is stating rules, and the other side believes that fluff should win out.

Dosent change the fact that no one is going to win this.

I agree with the above, we seem to have been going in circles. I'm one of the people that has been saying that the nightscythes' 'goes back into reserves' rules replaces the entire transport crash and burn rule, not just parts of it. I've done this by quoting relevent rules, not by arguing the fluff. If people wish to continue to dissect the crash and burn transport rule and only apply the parts of it that they like, feel free.

As both rules try to modify the events which occur at the moment he nightscythe is destroyed, we can only follow one of them since they are mutually contradictory. As i've already stated multiple times, Codex > Basic Book, so the nightscythe rule wins out.

I'm not sure how much more clear i can make it to be honest.

Neorealist wrote:I'm one of the people that has been saying that the nightscythes' 'goes back into reserves' rules replaces the entire transport crash and burn rule, not just parts of it. I've done this by quoting relevent rules, not by arguing the fluff.

So how does Mordrak Deep Strike? (and many other units that modify the deep strike rules)

He has specific rules that modify the Deep Strike rules. If we take the "modifications replace all rules" stance, there are not Deep Strike rules to follow anymore.

Also, your interpretation causes NS's to not drop a blast marker when destroyed.

rigeld2 wrote:So how does Mordrak Deep Strike? (and many other units that modify the deep strike rules)

He has specific rules that modify the Deep Strike rules. If we take the "modifications replace all rules" stance, there are not Deep Strike rules to follow anymore.

Also, your interpretation causes NS's to not drop a blast marker when destroyed.

Any advanced rule which incorporates aspects of a more basic rule (and there are many that do so) explicitly states such: Mordrak's deepstrike and reserves rules explicitly say they modify some aspects of the basic deepstrike and reserve rules. The nightscythe's rules on the other hand make no mention of using the Crash and Burn transport rules.

To use your example: If Mordrak's special rules did not tell you to use the deepstrike rules, then yes his rule would overwrite the normal rules for such entirely as they'd then contradict.

Neorealist wrote:To use your example: If Mordrak's special rules did not tell you to use the deepstrike rules, then yes his rule would overwrite the normal rules for such entirely as they'd then contradict.

They don't. They say if he deploys by Deep Strike, he doesn't scatter and arrives in the first turn.
Vanguard Veterans - if you deploy by Deep Strike, you can declare a Heroic Intervention.

Both of them *modify* the base rules - if they *replaced* they wouldn't work at all.

Want me to keep looking for examples? There's probably hundreds throughout the book.
Can you give me one line that says the Night Scythe replaces the entire Crash and Burn section? So that you don't place a marker when the Scythe explodes?

Where are you getting permission to replace the entire section?

I wonder if you could argue that by stating "the unit enters reserves..." and not stating it as "the surviving members of the unit enters reserves..." tells us the rules intention. Aren't there 40k rules written as the later?

rigeld2 wrote: They don't. They say if he deploys by Deep Strike, he doesn't scatter and arrives in the first turn.
Vanguard Veterans - if you deploy by Deep Strike, you can declare a Heroic Intervention.

Yes, they do. Both of those rules tell you right in your quote even to use the deep-strike rules, except as modified by the specific more advanced rule. Dozens of other advanced rules use a similar wording if they meant you to include aspects of the more basic rule they are superceding.

Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: They don't. They say if he deploys by Deep Strike, he doesn't scatter and arrives in the first turn.
Vanguard Veterans - if you deploy by Deep Strike, you can declare a Heroic Intervention.

Yes, they do. Both of those rules tell you right in your quote even to use the deep-strike rules, except as modified by the specific more advanced rule. Dozens of other advanced rules use a similar wording if they meant you to include aspects of the more basic rule they are superceding.

What wording do you require for the "override"? Since it's your assertion that the Night Scythe does it, what sentence is giving you permission to completely ignore Crash and Burn?

The problem to your argument is that the codex only permits you to place the unit into reserve when they are not allowed to disembark.

Disembarking is the last step in crash and burn.

It does not say ANYTHING remotely like, "immediately place in reserve," or, "place in unit in reserve, then resolve..." That would show that you are PERMITTED to ignore the hits. There is nothing permitting you to ignore all the actions that occur before disembarking the unit inside in the codex entry.

There's close to a million 3 word phrases they COULD HAVE put in the codex entry but did not. Whether that is by design or incompetence, I am not sure. Until MAYBE another FAQ comes out, by nature of the wording of all relevant entries in codex and rulebook, I will continue to apply the hits to my deathmarks if my night scythe doesn't kick them out fast enough.

katfude wrote:The problem to your argument is that the codex only permits you to place the unit into reserve when they are not allowed to disembark.

Disembarking is the last step in crash and burn.

This is incorrect in two ways:

1) The wording in the codex tells you to place them in reserve when the nightscythe is destroyed; being prevented from disembarking is part of that, not the cause.
2) placing surviving models within 3 inches of the blast template is not 'disembarking'. (there are seperate rules for that)

I agree this has run its course and no complete answer to change anyone's minds will be found and the reason for that is RAW .

RAW and this sub forum as i keep being told is all that matters ,but as has been found more times than i care to mention RAW itself can not alone answer a rule query (sometimes it can but often not ).

I can say one thing to someone and i can know exactly what i mean yet the other person can and does more often than not misinterpret what i am saying ,I then have to explain what i interned to mean in greater detail as to remove confusion.

Unfortunately we can't ring up the writer of the BRB and any codex to ask them what they meant exactly ,so we are left having to use RAI to add meaning to RAW ,but since this sub forum and many people in it do not allow that, this type of circular argument will carry on and on .

Shout at me tell me i and breaking forum rules ,but the simple fact is RAW alone CAN NOT always make a rule interpretation right or wrong ,only allowing RAW as a valid argument removes logic ,RAI and commonsense .

Rules are guidelines and sometime we have to make use of every thing we have RAW, RAI,logic and commonsense to come to the correct out come .

For the record my interpretation of RAW is the Nightscythe rule = no hits , since i am only allowed to use RAW to back up my belief please do not ask for rules citation, as that would be the same as asking me to fight in a boxing match with both hands tied behind my back .

Neorealist wrote:

katfude wrote:The problem to your argument is that the codex only permits you to place the unit into reserve when they are not allowed to disembark.

Disembarking is the last step in crash and burn.

This is incorrect in two ways:

1) The wording in the codex tells you to place them in reserve when the nightscythe is destroyed; being prevented from disembarking is part of that, not the cause.
2) placing surviving models within 3 inches of the blast template is not 'disembarking'. (there are seperate rules for that)

I understand your logic and your conclusion.

You will most assuredly be correct if/when a faq is released. I want you to be right.

Guys, as I said RAW is that they dont take hits. Rigeld2, I dont get why you are ignoring the order at play here.

The ONLY THING that codex entry supercedes is that instead of putting them on the table after everything else resolves per the rulebook, they go back to start and wait their turn

Also, as mentioned already this is false. Nowhere in the codex does it say that the scythe happens after everything else resolves... where did that idea even come from? Also, likening my RAW reading of the rules to wishing for happy bunnies seems silly.

"If the Night Scythe is destroyed the embarked unit is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters Reserves (when they arrive, they cannot Deep Strike)"

"If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, it's flaming debris rains down on the battlefield. Centre the large blast marker over the Flyer - it THEN scatters 2D6". Any model under the blast marker's final position suffers a strength 6, AP - hit. The Flyer is THEN taken off the board. If the Flyer is also a Transport, any models within suffer a strength 10 hit with no armour sames allowed. Survivors are placed anywhere within 3 of the blast markers final position and in unit coherency."

As I have bolded, there are 'THENS' in the rules... to say that the crash and burn section has no concept of when each rule plays out ignores this.

So we have a codex rule saying that units embarked in the destroyed vehicle go in reserve.

We have the rulebook rule saying that when a flyer is destroyed, first center a blast marker. Then scatter it. Then remove the flyer. Embarked units take damage. Embarked unit gets out of the vehicle (NOT DISEMBARK).

Before the unit embarked in the vehicle gets to where the vehicle takes damage, 3 other things happen. After 3 things happen, we are obviously NOT at the time when the transport gets destroyed, we have moved past that point. The necron rule reads 'If transport destroyed, enter reserve.' Not 'If transport destroyed, do all other relevant rules for what happens AFTER a transport is destroyed, then after resolving all other things after a destroyed result comes up, go back to when the transport was destroyed and apply the necron rule.'

PS: Rigeld, earlier you said

What happens before the unit disembarks from a wrecked flyer?

I forgot to mention it specifically, but you dont disembark when a flyer is destroyed OR when a vehicle explodes. Could our opinions be different because you are using the notion that models are disembarking from a crashed flyer, or was disembark an untended word choice in the quote above?"