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dogma wrote:Sure, but it won't happen. People still bought liquor during Prohibition and they'll still buy marijuana, cocaine, meth, etc. no matter the penalty.

I have to agree with this. Man at his worst is a selfish creature that puts his own comfort and pleasure above the health and safety of others.
It's like the "Natural Man", as wrtitten about in the Bible.

Jihadin wrote:

as soon as marijuana is legalized they will mostly all go away

I see a lot of employers implementing piss test

Most jobs don't want you to show up drunk either but they don't make everyone clocking in take a breathalyzer. I always remember when I worked at a liqour store there was a crane operator that would come in every day at lunch and buy two small bottles of vodka.

Ahtman wrote:

Relapse wrote:Sometimes the simple solutions are best. In this case, not buying drugs eliminates most of the money cartels operate on.

Creating an unrealistic goal is probably not the the simplest solution. That is like saying that getting no teens to ever have sex again is the simplest way to cure teen pregnancy. Both ignore the fact that neither (absolute teen celibacy or getting no one to want to take drugs) are going to happen. If there is a simplest way, it would be to regulate some drugs that illegal in the same way we regulate some drugs that are. Making Marijuana legal and controlled would be a huge blow.

I don't think recognizing that we play a part in the drug business is really damning us as much as trying to understand the problem. Blame isn't all that helpful as much as recognizing the issues and how they are connected. Mexico, through their own set of problems, allowed the cartels to set up shop there and run roughshod over them just as much as we encourage them to run a risky business by offering such high levels of return on their investment. They would take the risk if there ws no reward, and if the environment wasn't suitable to begin with they wouldn't have been able to penetrate so deeply into the country that they can't be displaced. It is going to to take effort on both sides to do something about it, assuming we actually want to do something about it instead of feeling like we are doing something.

I know it will probably never happen, but if they don't get the money, they don't prosper. It's as simple as not doing drugs.

I have to say though, disagreeing with Relapse I suppose, but rather than blame Americans for this problem (Americans that take drugs) surely to feth, the real people to blame are fething Mexicans!

Soldiers are somewhat one dimensional creatures who like to lop the head off the snake I know, but at the end of the day, we have a handle on drugs and drug dealers in both of our respective nations, sure it happens, but not with impunity. The blame mostly lies with the mother fething Mexican drug dealers, the mother fething Mexican officials that are ridiculously corrupt, and the mother fething Mexican police that suck and take bribes.

So rather than take the more circumspect route and blame the American user, or the American government, or anybody else, why not simply say..

Mexico. Sort your fething gak out!

Jihadin wrote:

as soon as marijuana is legalized they will mostly all go away

I see a lot of employers implementing piss test

because they also give random breathalyzers?


once it is LEGALIZED it will become taxed and the gov will be thanking their lucky stars for the untold billions of annual income that they will now be blessed with.

seriously folks, wake up. 1/3 of the states and DC have medical marijuana, there is tons of proof that it helps, none that shows it hurts. Not everything you have learned or thought about it is true. This is a plant "god" wanted us to use, that is why it naturally grew on almost every single landmass.

everyone who is against it just needs to smoke some good herb and realize it is harmless. I get more health risks riding my bike in downtown Portland than you get from smoking herb all day.

Frazzled wrote:
Thats still not relevant to the topic. Are you going to actually discuss the OP which you submitted or play weird side games? If so I'm out.

I am discussing it. How much you will spend to protect the lives of people you don't know (Mexicans, Texans, etc.) is absolutely relevant to the matter because its not only a matter of willingness, its a matter of money; or more properly willingness to spend it in certain cases.

Are you going to take money out of your coffers in order to pay border guards? That sounds absolutist, because it is, but the reality is you're fighting people over their money and while its nice to say you want secure borders, they do cost money; lots of money.

And to preempt: You can't just stick tanks on the border. What are they going to shoot at?

Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

Well, I suppose they can shoot at those things. Whether or not they'll actually hit them though...

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

you do realize we changed the line, and "TOOK THEIR LAND" RIGHT?" They are just trying to get "home".


Americans have no fething right, we stole everything in the first place, so we owe it to the Mexicans and the Natives. I mean come on, we fething stole everything we have, invented biological warfare even.

mattyrm wrote: I have to say though, disagreeing with Relapse I suppose, but rather than blame Americans for this problem (Americans that take drugs) surely to feth, the real people to blame are fething Mexicans!

Soldiers are somewhat one dimensional creatures who like to lop the head off the snake I know, but at the end of the day, we have a handle on drugs and drug dealers in both of our respective nations, sure it happens, but not with impunity. The blame mostly lies with the mother fething Mexican drug dealers, the mother fething Mexican officials that are ridiculously corrupt, and the mother fething Mexican police that suck and take bribes.

So rather than take the more circumspect route and blame the American user, or the American government, or anybody else, why not simply say..

Mexico. Sort your fething gak out!

They are trying to sort things out, even sending in the army to fight the drug cartels, and it broke out into a mini war. Right now, it's kind of like a tar baby where they can't get unstuck from the situation. You are right that corruption runs deep and a serious sweep needs to be made, but right now people down there don't know who to trust. On their part it's going to take some truly Herculian efforts to cut out the bad, and I don't honestly know what can be done to accomplish this out side of people buying drugs honestly caring about the fact that they are funding murderers and not buy the gak.
It's an extremely naive and unrealistic thought, I am the first to admit, but that's about all I can think to suggest.

DIDM wrote:
Americans have no fething right, we stole everything in the first place, so we owe it to the Mexicans and the Natives.

And the natives owe their language to the Spanish, and the natives are probably from somewhere in Central Asia via Africa.

DIDM wrote:
I mean come on, we fething stole everything we have, invented biological warfare even.

No we didn't. It predates the discovery of the New World by a lot.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

Well, I suppose they can shoot at those things. Whether or not they'll actually hit them though...

HE doesn't need to hit...

DIDM wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

you do realize we changed the line, and "TOOK THEIR LAND" RIGHT?" They are just trying to get "home".


Americans have no fething right, we stole everything in the first place, so we owe it to the Mexicans and the Natives. I mean come on, we fething stole everything we have, invented biological warfare even.

Sounds like the beginning of another good thread.
By the way, during warfare in the middle ages and earlier, plague victims were often catapulted over city walls to sicken the defenders.

DIDM wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

you do realize we changed the line, and "TOOK THEIR LAND" RIGHT?" They are just trying to get "home".

NO. Thats nonsense and stupid to boot. If they were born here they wouldn't need those boots for walking now would they.


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DIDM wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

Americans have no fething right, we stole everything in the first place, so we owe it to the Mexicans and the Natives. I mean come on, we fething stole everything we have, invented biological warfare even.

Dude wrong pipe. You want the pipe marked "weed."

dogma wrote:

DIDM wrote:
Americans have no fething right, we stole everything in the first place, so we owe it to the Mexicans and the Natives.

And the natives owe their language to the Spanish, and the natives are probably from somewhere in Central Asia via Africa.

DIDM wrote:
I mean come on, we fething stole everything we have, invented biological warfare even.

No we didn't. It predates the discovery of the New World by a lot.

we used it to wipe a nation off the map

we turned a culture to dust with smallpox

it was maybe used, but not in a fashion like it was when we landed.

and when the people started migrating across the ice sheets they were then the natives of an uninhabited land. They set up civilizations, and then started heading south. The funny thing about the people who inhabited the lands, they KNEW none of it belonged to them.

we used it to wipe a nation off the map

Whats this we gak and whats this nation you're referring to?
NOTE: NONE OF THIS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM OF CARTELS RUNNING DRUGS FROM MEXICO AND KILLING MEXICANS.

we turned a culture to dust with smallpox

I feel I have to restate. Whats this we gak and whats this nation you're referring to?
NOTE: NONE OF THIS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM OF CARTELS RUNNING DRUGS FROM MEXICO AND KILLING MEXICANS.

it was maybe used, but not in a fashion like it was when we landed.

I feel I have to restate. Whats this we gak and whats this nation you're referring to?
NOTE: NONE OF THIS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM OF CARTELS RUNNING DRUGS FROM MEXICO AND KILLING MEXICANS.

and when the people started migrating across the ice sheets they were then the natives of an uninhabited land. They set up civilizations, and then started heading south. The funny thing about the people who inhabited the lands, they KNEW none of it belonged to them.

No it was inhabited. Before the first European crossed the Bering Strait, before the first polynesian boated along and reach America, TBone was already here, with a ball.

DIDM wrote:we used it to wipe a nation off the map

we turned a culture to dust with smallpox

it was maybe used, but not in a fashion like it was when we landed.

You seem to not really understand what you are talking about. There was an instance of Smallpox blankets given to one group by a British officer, but that in no way encompasses even close to to 99% of immigrant native/relations, and it certainly didn't wipe any nation off a map. The diseases that wiped out the native populations arrived well before the Europeans did; viruses and bacteria don't need ships to travel. I think you have conflated the pre-'discovery' diseases with the small pox story.

Well in his defense smallpox did come with foreign interaction. That would have occurred no matter what explorer reached the continent and wasn't part of human conquest. (bug conquest you betcha however).


Of course, when the real biogenocide occurred, everyone thought smallpox was caused by bad air etc. When we all know its caused by people giving you the evil eye.

Frazzled wrote:Well in his defense smallpox did come with foreign interaction.

The problem is in overstating it. It neither wiped a nation out, nor did it represent every interaction between the different groups. It is like pretending that becuase an illegal immigrant killed someone that all illegal immigrants are killers, and that they have all wiped out small towns of people. It is silly, and it muddies the actual discussion.

Ahtman wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well in his defense smallpox did come with foreign interaction.

The problem is in overstating it. It neither wiped a nation out, nor did it represent every interaction between the different groups. It is like pretending that becuase an illegal immigrant killed someone that all illegal immigrants are killers, and that they have all wiped out small towns of people. It is silly, and it muddies the actual discussion.

Agreed on all points.

Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

I aint "guilty white man" type Frazz, but some of the stuff you type is flat out ridiculous.

Blow up every single person (with tanks?!) who attempts to cross the border. Really?

The vast majority of American soldiers would be aghast at the idea of butchering every single human that attempted to cross into the US, and you know it anyway! So, why even suggest it?

mattyrm wrote:I aint "guilty white man" type Frazz, but some of the stuff you type is flat out ridiculous.

Blow up every single person (with tanks?!) who attempts to cross the border. Really?

The vast majority of American soldiers would be aghast at the idea of butchering every single human that attempted to cross into the US, and you know it anyway! So, why even suggest it?

Thats what the trained chimpanzis are for. Use apes and gorillas for physical contact. What could go wrong?


Ape shall not kill Ape...

I have strong doubts about the legalization argument, only because there are already enough issues with alcoholism and DUI's. Adding marijuana would cause more substance abuse issues.

Well a M1/Bradley/Apache/Warrior or whatever can nail a vehicle (which we call a technical) coming across the border. It'll be no issue. As for putting arm troops on the border would be insane. Majority of the military is combat oriented due from multiple deployments. I for one though rather not have a doctor, nuclear plant operater. train engine operator, bus operator, aircraft pilot or someone in a field that could cost some lives being doped the hell up.

Back to troops on border. I be for it incase the cartel war spills across into our side of the border. I've no issue applying 9lbs to make a drug cartel employee have a bad day/night

mattyrm wrote: I have to say though, disagreeing with Relapse I suppose, but rather than blame Americans for this problem (Americans that take drugs) surely to feth, the real people to blame are fething Mexicans!

Soldiers are somewhat one dimensional creatures who like to lop the head off the snake I know, but at the end of the day, we have a handle on drugs and drug dealers in both of our respective nations, sure it happens, but not with impunity. The blame mostly lies with the mother fething Mexican drug dealers, the mother fething Mexican officials that are ridiculously corrupt, and the mother fething Mexican police that suck and take bribes.

So rather than take the more circumspect route and blame the American user, or the American government, or anybody else, why not simply say..

Mexico. Sort your fething gak out!

Easy to blame corruption in Mexico. But how many people do YOU know who would turn down a hundred thousand dollar bribe to look the other way - knowing that if you don't take it, you stand a very real risk of having a handful of thugs kick in your door, shoot your kids, rape your wife, and torture you to death? It's called "Silver or Lead" (I forget how it goes in Spanish, something like Plata y plato or some such); either take the money... or take a bullet.

It's American money that allows the cartel to pay the bribes, and American money that allows the cartels to hire and arm the thugs. It's not all Mexico - or Coulmbia, or whatever country south of the border -'s fault.


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Frazzled wrote:Anything that crosses the border, or t put it better, an HE round at anything that flies in the air, swims in the stream or squats in the mud that crosses that imaginary line.

Tanks aren't exactly cheap, neither are HE rounds. And neither are infallible, because most drugs come in not on foot through the backcountry, but hidden in vehicles and shipments. What are you going to do, outlaw ALL traffic between the U.S. and Mexico, watch both economies collapse even faster, and give even more power to the drug lords as the only people offering paying employment on either side of the border?

Tanks are also a pretty poor choice for dealing with tunnels and semi-submerable the cartels have started using. They also are not hugely effective at shooting down aircraft.

EDIT: One more point. What makes you think a tank crew won't respond to bribes and theats just as easily? Even your theorectical trained apes would look the other way for enough bananas, and tank crews can't take their weapons home with them. Heck, the familes of the tank crews are just as vulnerable as Mexican police families, while dad's on patrol, <KICK> BLAM BLAM BLAM!

Vulcan wrote:

mattyrm wrote: I have to say though, disagreeing with Relapse I suppose, but rather than blame Americans for this problem (Americans that take drugs) surely to feth, the real people to blame are fething Mexicans!

Soldiers are somewhat one dimensional creatures who like to lop the head off the snake I know, but at the end of the day, we have a handle on drugs and drug dealers in both of our respective nations, sure it happens, but not with impunity. The blame mostly lies with the mother fething Mexican drug dealers, the mother fething Mexican officials that are ridiculously corrupt, and the mother fething Mexican police that suck and take bribes.

So rather than take the more circumspect route and blame the American user, or the American government, or anybody else, why not simply say..

Mexico. Sort your fething gak out!

Easy to blame corruption in Mexico. But how many people do YOU know who would turn down a hundred thousand dollar bribe to look the other way - knowing that if you don't take it, you stand a very real risk of having a handful of thugs kick in your door, shoot your kids, rape your wife, and torture you to death?

It's American money that allows the cartel to pay the bribes, and American money that allows the cartels to hire and arm the thugs. It's not all Mexico - or Coulmbia, or whatever country south of the border -'s fault.


.

What was the excuse before? That country has always been grossly corrupt.

Tanks aren't exactly cheap, neither are HE rounds. And neither are infallible, because most drugs come in not on foot through the backcountry, but hidden in vehicles and shipments. What are you going to do, outlaw ALL traffic between the U.S. and Mexico, watch both economies collapse even faster, and give even more power to the drug lords as the only people offering paying employment on either side of the border?

This is not hard. Any vehicle attempting to cross except through approved checkpoints is suspect. This is how it works in most countries.
Now under an enlightened Frazzled regime any suspect vehicle gets shot at by simian artillery. Chimps to calculate the launch. Arangutans to work the gun, and apes (of course) to handle the heavy work of loading the shot. I'm a traditionalist so lets go with the mighty 105. Sure apes could sling the loads for 155s with ease but we can't overwork our simian comrades. Those PETA guys can be such pains in the butt.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tanks are also a pretty poor choice for dealing with tunnels and semi-submerable the cartels have started using. They also are not hugely effective at shooting down aircraft.

True that. naval craft would be handled by PT boats manned (or aped) by specially trained howler monkeys.
Aircraft would be dealt with by genetically modifed monkeys with frigging laser beams. Take that evil cartel guy!

Cartels are a serious problem, the likes of which we haven't really seen in the US. Even the Gangsters in prohibition days don't even come close to Cartles in terms of money, firepower, and ruthlessness.

It wasn't in the Gangsters best interests to destabilize the country since their clients were part of the country. For the Cartels, its not the same since their clients are in the US. If Mexico is destabilized, that is a benefit to their operations.

There are no clear answers, but their will be a time when we will have to do something, because the status quo is not sustainable.

I'm pretty sure if Mexico goes to Hell in a kitten hand basket the US military be going south of the border

For the 3rd time...

We play for keeps...we can claim all of the Gulf of Mexico then