Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mr Morden wrote:Tau are honourable and skilled warriors so if they fight with (and to a certain degree aginst them) the Astartes and others can recognise that - more than say they do with Orks. I don't think this means that they seem them as equals just less distasteful than other Xenos. The Astartes and other Imperial Forces can and do work with Xenos (mainly Eldar and Tau but also on rare occassions Orks) against a greater threat - usually Necrons, Chaos or Tryanids

The fighting in the Damocles Gulf Crusade certainly made both sides see each other in a new light. The Tau fought much harder, with greater skill and with far better weapons than the Imperials had thought likely. The Tau also finally realized that their previous idea about the size and power of the human Imperium was a ridiculous underestimation. Once the Imperial forces had to withdraw (part battle losses, part Tyranids elsewhere that needed killing a lot more than the Tau) the Tau sensibly offered negotiations and Imperial forces were allowed to withdraw unhindered. And far as I recall UM and Tau clashed over some out-of-the-place world, awakening the Necrons there and soon allying against the robotic horde. Calgar saw Exterminatus as the only choice but generously allowed his Tau enemies-turned-allies to evacuate their forces first.

So there you have it. If Marneus Calgar thinks the Tau are worth honorable treatment then all the other marines that wish they were Ultramarines will surely think so too.

1hadhq wrote:The truth is:

The fire caste has seen the error of their ways and accepted Roboute as their spiritual liege.
From now on, the caste paints its armor blue and is BFF with the warrior kings of ultramar, and a pilgrimage to Macragge is mandatory if you want to advance to Shas'O.

Most of the time, Ultrahate references are pretty fething stupid, but this one made me laugh. Good show.

I think the Allies chart is more showing three levels of support, rather than them actually being "battle brothers"

Desperate allies - Can't trust their allies at all, but due to the circumstances are forced to work together. They don't trust each other much and expect their allies to do their own thing.

Allies of convenience - might actually listen and be trusted to help in some way, but there is still some doubt about their level of cooperation.

Battle brothers - more trust than the others, is actually expected to listen and cooperate. Will actually do what they say they will rather than change their mind half-way through (they will act as expected them to do).

If you think about it like that then the Tau and Marines being Battle Brothers makes more sense. The Tau are one of the least likely to backstab anyone, and Marines are unlikely to do that aswell (they are honorable etc). Marines and Tau are also both highly skilled warriors so would respect each other enough to listen and actually cooperate when needed.

Spetulhu wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Tau are honourable and skilled warriors so if they fight with (and to a certain degree aginst them) the Astartes and others can recognise that - more than say they do with Orks. I don't think this means that they seem them as equals just less distasteful than other Xenos. The Astartes and other Imperial Forces can and do work with Xenos (mainly Eldar and Tau but also on rare occassions Orks) against a greater threat - usually Necrons, Chaos or Tryanids

The fighting in the Damocles Gulf Crusade ........

<snip>

Damocles gulf crusade isn't the most recent "meeting" of marines and Tau.
Use the rulebook and the appropriate codices. And you get: the Zeist campaign, run by the Ultramarines.
So why again are the 'allies' on this chart facing off so recently and 'battlebrothers' now without new fluff to explain it?

Mentlegen324 wrote:I think the Allies chart is more showing three levels of support, rather than them actually being "battle brothers"

GW defined the level on page 112. There is no doubt what they are. The tier of the SM/Tau alliance allows to join units for example.
I see your intentions, and agree professional military would be able to stick with a pact made.
But there are politics involved in alliances and both parties are not used to have such close understanding in the current fluff.
The IoM consider the Tau as thieves who undermine imperial rule and the Tau are not aware who they are messing with, IMO.

So this chart is part of the rules now, but has nothing to base it in fluff, yet.
OtoH the Tau gained a few new friends in their entry. Seems it was possible to give hints on the future of them, but nothing to integrate a chart in the background. Looks like the sections were written by people who didn't check their work for links.

Well they aren't really protecting them more like. "Well Get you later." type of situation. kinda of Like Genghis Khan's Golden Horde, they wanted to invade europe but lacked the motivation as they had bigger fish to fry.

Those complaining about Ork allies should read about Blood Axes and freebooters.

Steve steveson wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar battle brothers? Am I missing something?

There was a big thread on this I can't find right now. Basically, Eldar and DE players came to the conclusion that Eldar and DE hate other races more than each other and they have the same goal (surviving and hiding from Slaanesh), but just go about it different ways. The Eldar think the DE are fools for following the path that lead the ancient eldar to slaanesh's creation, and the DE think the Eldar are stuck up cousins who have no fun in life. But they would still fight together against another enemy.

This gose for most of the complaints. Eg. people are saying Orks won't work with Guard because of Gaz and Yarric. There is allot of focusing on small conflicts in fluff to say why forces would not work together rather than why they would. The xenophobia of the IOM has been over stated, people forgetting that the relationship between Eldar is "he may be a drug addict/arogant gakker but hes still my brother" not "i hate and will kill them", and talking about DE not working with chaos because of Slaanesh, whilst forgetting that forces of Khorne also hate Slaanesh, so on that basis C:CSM & C:CD are unfluffy.

I think most of the problems (or for me at least) is the levels of alliance

Most people have no issues with Tau allying with Space Marines as Allies of Conveience but not Battle Brothers for instance - and there are many of these in the present (and hopefully temporary) matrix

Pretty sure they weren't. The Allies chart was basically a joke. It didn't reflect the lore at all.

Ive always had the feeling that Tau is like: Join the greater cause or die.. Is that true?

Mr Morden wrote:

Steve steveson wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

angelshade00 wrote:Also, Eldar and Dark Eldar battle brothers? Am I missing something?

There was a big thread on this I can't find right now. Basically, Eldar and DE players came to the conclusion that Eldar and DE hate other races more than each other and they have the same goal (surviving and hiding from Slaanesh), but just go about it different ways. The Eldar think the DE are fools for following the path that lead the ancient eldar to slaanesh's creation, and the DE think the Eldar are stuck up cousins who have no fun in life. But they would still fight together against another enemy.

This gose for most of the complaints. Eg. people are saying Orks won't work with Guard because of Gaz and Yarric. There is allot of focusing on small conflicts in fluff to say why forces would not work together rather than why they would. The xenophobia of the IOM has been over stated, people forgetting that the relationship between Eldar is "he may be a drug addict/arogant gakker but hes still my brother" not "i hate and will kill them", and talking about DE not working with chaos because of Slaanesh, whilst forgetting that forces of Khorne also hate Slaanesh, so on that basis C:CSM & C:CD are unfluffy.

I think most of the problems (or for me at least) is the levels of alliance

Most people have no issues with Tau allying with Space Marines as Allies of Conveience but not Battle Brothers for instance - and there are many of these in the present (and hopefully temporary) matrix

What Mr Morden said. I think that if someone would take most of these alliances one step lower (battle brothers made allies of convenience and allies of convenience into desperate) it would make quite a lot more sense and still keep up with the "there is only war" motif.

As for the Tau, I think at least some of their fluff has shown that they will not stop at turning you to the greater good. Take the ending sequence of the Dark Crusade for example.

Searth wrote:Ive always had the feeling that Tau is like: Join the greater cause or die.. Is that true?

strong overtones of mass brainwashing, "convert or die" among other things. kinda like space commies

Searth wrote:Ive always had the feeling that Tau is like: Join the greater cause or die.. Is that true?

Nope, or with the current ally matrix, all Space Marines would be dead

Kroothawk wrote:

Searth wrote:Ive always had the feeling that Tau is like: Join the greater cause or die.. Is that true?

Nope, or with the current ally matrix, all Space Marines would be dead

No problem, we got the Legion of the Damned, they are already ( un ) dead and still kicking traitor asses..

Yori wrote:

nobody wrote:
IIRC, there was even a bit of fluff a while back where Tau thought they had killed Slaanesh (actually, the daemon prince leading a Slaanesh warband). This should give you an idea of just how aware they are.

This I must read, where is it from?

I didn't remember initially, but some googling around suggests White Dwarf 263.

I quite like this new addition, especially in game terms. I think the reason they did this was to throw the faithful Tau players a bone until the new codex comes out (which still seems a long way off). Its very useful to prevent tau getting chopped into little bits in CC, have some marine CC units to protect them while Tau devastate everyone with railguns.

That would equally have been possible with Allies of Convenience - or by just having Eldar Allies...........

Kroothawk wrote:Personally I think that the rumour about SM now protecting the Tau is correct.

I have to ask: why?

Does the allies matrix really seem that consistent otherwise that you think it indicates a massive overhaul in the fluff?

Ther are alot of incosistancies with current /previous fluff.

It may indeed be heralding changes in the 40k background -
or be related to game balance

or just errors..........

It just seems like so little to go on to suggest something so big.

Manchu wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Personally I think that the rumour about SM now protecting the Tau is correct.

I have to ask: why?
Does the allies matrix really seem that consistent otherwise that you think it indicates a massive overhaul in the fluff?

1.) There has been this specific rumour.
2.) Xenology and the novel Fire Warrior hint at the fact that Tau are practically immune to Chaos.
3.) Making Space Marines and Tau closer allies than with other Space Marines is contradicting current fluff, so deserves an explanation. It would be in line with other fluff changes, where "radicals" cross dogmatic lines all the time just to save the Imperium (Inquisition hiring Xenos -> Jokaeroes, Grey Knights performing blood rituals using innocent allies, Blood Angels bro-fisting Necrons). So Tau are not the first Xeno allies of the Imperium and an alliance makes sense.

I am not commenting on the complete ally matrix, as I am not an expert on Space Marines.

What would have made more sense is that the Eldar are more protective of the Tau.

The Battle Brothers Alliance is wrong for the current fluff of the Tau/Marine relationship as can be seen form the very discriptions:

Battle Brothers are:
"Strongest of Alliances....Battle Brothers have utter trust in their comrades, treating them as extensions of their own forces...."

Allies of Convience:
"The tides of war can often throw unlikely allies together, forcing them to work in common cause for a time"

Imperial can be Allies of Conveince with Xenos but they should not IMO be Battle Brothers unless as some appologists for the present matrix have suggested the fluff is going to radically change although there is nothing in the rulebook to confirm this.

Mr Morden wrote:What would have made more sense is that the Eldar are more protective of the Tau.

Eldar and Tau are Battle Brothers, so ...

Guys, remember that Codex space marines is meant to cover more than just Ultramarines, by my count there are 994 chapters still waiting for their own books, surely one of em has a good working relationship with the Tau

chaos0xomega wrote:Guys, remember that Codex space marines is meant to cover more than just Ultramarines, by my count there are 994 chapters still waiting for their own books, surely one of em has a good working relationship with the Tau

Well, even the UM seem to have if not a good working relationship then at least some respect for the Tau. The Tau warrior caste might fight with different methods but they've impressed marines with their dedication and honorable conduct. The Tau seem to hold up to their part in pacts and agreements without exception once terms have been negotiated. No Eldar double-dealing, no Orky "hit these guys with the oomies, then hit the oomies if they're still alive - they's got to be a good fight".

I think Battle Brothers is more about how they get along if they decide to work together than about how they clash on the borders now and then. Anyone bringing the two as an allied army should still come up with a story behind it, ofc.

chaos0xomega wrote:Guys, remember that Codex space marines is meant to cover more than just Ultramarines, by my count there are 994 chapters still waiting for their own books, surely one of em has a good working relationship with the Tau

So who exactly?

The Ultras, who have a fluff-example in the back of the rulebook, a return from a campaign against the Tau?
The chapters teaming up in the Zeist campaign?
The allies chart has nothing to back it up on these 100 pages of fluff in the new BYB. If they can't provide in 100 pages, why do you think there is anything to support it in fluff, at all? Allies is found in rules, not background. The ultras and anyone using the same dex, don't seem to get a new dex in the near future and thus are not changing their stance towards the Tau.
The Tau otoh, got a few new friends in their entry of the BYB and if there was a change in their relations to the SM, it would be there too, no?

I think the problem here is this is a 6th ed and we're going by 5th ed fluff.

They may have new fluff coming that they know about and we don't yet.

After all till then end of 5th we thought Necrons were mindless slaves of the C'tan and that GKs worked well with SoBs.

WOW all this talk about reasons for alliances is funny.


They did it so you BUY MORE MODELS!

They will sell their own souls (IE: IP ) to sell them. Fluff be damned!

MONEY MONEY MONEY......... Stop trying to create reasons in the fluff for it.

Dark Eldar play with Eldar because you have to go out and buy some more shyte. Thats it!

Steel Angel wrote:I think the problem here is this is a 6th ed and we're going by 5th ed fluff.

They may have new fluff coming that they know about and we don't yet.

After all till then end of 5th we thought Necrons were mindless slaves of the C'tan and that GKs worked well with SoBs.

Nothing of note was changed in the 6th Ed rulebook that would help to explain the apparenlyt serious errors in the Allies Matrix and some of the texty actually contradicts the Matrix as has been mentioned:

For instance the Tau are not described as "Battle brothers" in the fluff in the 6th Ed rulebook - but merely part of the greater Xenos threat and the only contact between them and the Astartes is as enemies in warfare................

Why is this thread discussion so long? It wasn't proven true, there's nothing about it in there.

It is true that the Tau and SM's are brothers in arms in terms of gameplay, but there's never any fluff explanation for this. There are even contradictory accounts in the fluff, such as Marine-Tau combat.

Gargantuan wrote:Those complaining about Ork allies should read about Blood Axes and freebooters.

Well, for Guard, allying with Orks would be considered heresy and would almost never happen.