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I am of the belief that the World Eaters general attitude and brutality was mainly due to the Butchers Nails, which shouldn't explain the Minotaurs brutality.

I'm more inclined now to agree that the Minotaurs are of Angron and not the Custodes.

Both Chapter and Legion have far too much in common.

The surgical procedures to implant psychobionics, the rage, the distrust, the fact that they only take orders from more powerful people/governing bodies, the fact that both legion and chapter are used as attack dogs, the battering your enemy into submission...

I could go on.

There is just so much that makes the Minotaurs an awesome force. Fighting as a Chapter more than as individual companies, the heavy use of Vindicators and Predators, the Siege expertise, the overwhelming brute force that they use to destroy their opponents, their complete lack of subtlety and my personal favourite... The hatred for other Marine chapters and the fact they are experts at killing other Astartes.

They are exactly what I'm looking for in an army. Brutal, unsubtle, unique Anti-Heroes.

it does seema bit of a coincidence that FW realease the land raiser Spartan just as Minotaurs are getting a big push.

Geneseed is not the same as DNA. It's not just a blueprint for the development of physical structures. The primarchs were engineered to be the leaders of the galaxy: not just because they are strong and smart but because they would be given to certain personality traits. This is why, for example, the Blood Angels are linked to the torment of their primarch.

Manchu wrote:Geneseed is not the same as DNA. It's not just a blueprint for the development of physical structures. The primarchs were engineered to be the leaders of the galaxy: not just because they are strong and smart but because they would be given to certain personality traits. This is why, for example, the Blood Angels are linked to the torment of their primarch.

And yet Iacton Qruze, Nathaniel Garro, Revuel Arvida, Menes Kalliston, and Barabas Dantioch among others, remained loyal. Gene-seed gives predispositions for some things, but it does not give a guarantee of loyalty or treachery.

We're talking about some serious predisposition here. If less than 1% of a legion remained loyal, I'd say founding additional chapters with their geneseed would be more than 99% ominous.


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Just Dave wrote:the World Eaters general attitude and brutality was mainly due to the Butchers Nails

What are they? I'm guessing it's something to do with the implants Angron received as a gladiator and then forced on his legion. The Minotaurs use a kind of toned down version of this with all their psycho-implant training.

Manchu wrote:We're talking about some serious predisposition here. If less than 1% of a legion remained loyal, I'd say founding additional chapters with their geneseed would be more than 99% ominous.

That doesn't automatically condemn them. If we assume the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, then they've redeemed themselves more than once over the past ten thousand years. Even when the heart of the Chapter was tainted, the loyalists fought and purged the Chapter from inside out. Its not like the Astartes are that easy to replace. If a Chapter can prove itself, the Imperium can ill-afford to simply sacrifice it. If the Minotaurs are World Eaters, then they've proven themselves just as much as the Blood Ravens to be loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium.

No one is talking about automatically condemning them and frankly I don't even know what that means. The ambiguity of the origins of the Blood Ravens and Minotaurs is not an accident. The idea is to get people to have this very argument: if they come from traitor stock, then could the traitors be redeemed? But since we don't actually know whether they come from traitor stock, or whether or not they will ultimately prove loyal, we simply can't come to a definitive answer. Also, the Imperium (including SM) has no problem sacrificing entire chapters if they step out of line.

Manchu wrote:No one is talking about automatically condemning them and frankly I don't even know what that means. The ambiguity of the origins of the Blood Ravens and Minotaurs is not an accident. The idea is to get people to have this very argument: if they come from traitor stock, then could the traitors be redeemed? But since we don't actually know whether they come from traitor stock, or whether or not they will ultimately prove loyal, we simply can't come to a definitive answer. Also, the Imperium (including SM) has no problem sacrificing entire chapters if they step out of line.

But they are loyal. The fact that the Blood Raven loyalists were willing to purge their Chapter even though they were already on the brink of extinction should be more than enough proof of their loyalty. I'm sure the same could be said for the Minotaurs and other Chapters.

What I am saying is, we don't know the end of their stories. We know the end of the stories of Magnus and Angron -- trapped in heir exalted status as daemon princes with no hope of redemption. The Blood Angels, by contrast, are still in play. They have been on a knife's edge between fidelity and corruption. It's one of the things that makes them interesting. Now throw in the hints about them having 1k Sons geneseed and it gets even more interesting. It is interesting precisely because there are so many open questions.

Manchu wrote:What I am saying is, we don't know the end of their stories. We know the end of the stories of Magnus and Angron -- trapped in heir exalted status as daemon princes with no hope of redemption. The Blood Angels, by contrast, are still in play. They have been on a knife's edge between fidelity and corruption. It's one of the things that makes them interesting. Now throw in the hints about them having 1k Sons geneseed and it gets even more interesting. It is interesting precisely because there are so many open questions.

Blood Ravens I think you mean there Manchu

I'm pretty sure that the Blood Angels don't have Thousand Sons Geneseed, that would be cool though, The Thousand Angels, drinking blood and firing lasers out of their eyes after their Primarch Maguinius sent a message to himself warning of the Flesh Rage

There you have it, the origin of the Blood Ravens: the discarded lovechild of Magnus and Sanguinius, raised by Corax.

Buttons wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Let's see, since I'm Japanese, its in my nature to be a warrior. Yet I'm not in the military, nor do I have any plan to join.

Yes, I am English, it is in my nature to shoot arrows at wealthy Frenchmen. Which I do on a regular basis.

I am an Aussie. It is in my nature to be a criminal, or a colonist. I really don't know my family history is wonky.
Anyway the World Eaters went traitor because of their inhibitors.
The Minotaurs might represent what the World Eaters should of been without the rage inducing inhibitors in them.

Surely the Emperor had the capacity to remove Angron's implants upon finding him? And yet, he didn't. So either they aren't responsible for Angron's fall or the Emperor wanted Angron to fall. (I personally think both are true.)

Puscifer wrote:I'm more inclined now to agree that the Minotaurs are of Angron and not the Custodes.

Both Chapter and Legion have far too much in common.

The surgical procedures to implant psychobionics, the rage, the distrust, the fact that they only take orders from more powerful people/governing bodies, the fact that both legion and chapter are used as attack dogs, the battering your enemy into submission...

I could go on.

There is just so much that makes the Minotaurs an awesome force. Fighting as a Chapter more than as individual companies, the heavy use of Vindicators and Predators, the Siege expertise, the overwhelming brute force that they use to destroy their opponents, their complete lack of subtlety and my personal favourite... The hatred for other Marine chapters and the fact they are experts at killing other Astartes.

They are exactly what I'm looking for in an army. Brutal, unsubtle, unique Anti-Heroes.

The World Eaters were not "attack dogs".

They were, simply put, World Eaters.
They were not to punish someone for the behavior of a small number. They were to punish someone for having the audacity to defy the Imperium of Man.
The World Eaters did not simply destroy armies or cities. They destroyed civilizations.

Kanluwen wrote:The World Eaters were not "attack dogs".

Yes, the were. They were even called the War Hounds. They rebelled against this role and established themselves as the World Eaters. Aaron Dembski-Bowden even wrote that great piece about them not willing to be servile dogs like the Space Wolves.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The World Eaters were not "attack dogs".

Yes, the were. They were even called the War Hounds. They rebelled against this role and established themselves as the World Eaters. Aaron Dembski-Bowden even wrote that great piece about them not willing to be servile dogs like the Space Wolves.

The Wolves were the Emperor's hounds. Magnus said so himself. A quite fitting description...perhaps that's what they were originally designed for. I wonder...what were each legion designed to do originally. Nice idea for a new thread.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The World Eaters were not "attack dogs".

Yes, the were. They were even called the War Hounds. They rebelled against this role and established themselves as the World Eaters. Aaron Dembski-Bowden even wrote that great piece about them not willing to be servile dogs like the Space Wolves.

They didn't do that until after turning traitor, Manchu.

Prior to that they were kept on a relatively tight leash(no pun intended) and only set forth when everything absolutely, positively had to die.

I'm not sure what you arguing then, Kan. The War Hounds were definitely attack dogs as far as the Emperor was concerned. They gave themselves the name "World Eaters" as a rejection of that role. Now if you imagine those attack dogs kept on their short leash indefinitely, you get the Minotaurs.


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Tadashi wrote:The Wolves were the Emperor's hounds. Magnus said so himself. A quite fitting description...perhaps that's what they were originally designed for.

Yep, that's the point of Prospero Burns.

Question. Then that makes the Minotaurs the Attack Dogs of the High Lords of Terra?

Yes, that's exactly what they are.

Manchu wrote:Yes, that's exactly what they are.

QFT.

As far as the background of the High Lords goes, the Astartes have no love for them.

The Minotaurs are the only Astartes to actually have full support of the High Lords, which comes in the form of an obscene amount new wargear.

No other chapter has ties this close to the High Lords. Hell, even some the greatest Astartes heroes detest them, Calgar, Grimnar and Tu'Shan being the biggest and most well known.

They obey, but they obey through gritted teeth.

Then the more of reason to buy a few huh?

King Pariah wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Eh, well if the minotaurs descended from angron, then the carchadons show that corax had a really brutally scary side.

HE did.

Really? I've never read any of the novels, just online fluff from the likes of lexicanum and whatnot and Corax didn't seem like the type who emitted the "I'M GOING TO RIP OFF YOUR HEAD AND GAK DOWN YOUR THROAT!!!" vibe.

he slapped a captives head off cause he was mad once