President Obama Speaks on Extending Tax Cuts for Middle Class Families

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**Jihadin**

I avoid LA personnaly....only through LAX occasionaly. Now whenever I need to go to the DMV I will Blue Falcon the other customers and go in uniform for either my 3 vehicles and my wife jeep. I go ahead of the line

**Frazzled**

and therein is the problem.

**Jihadin**

Toss up either me going in uniform or a weiner armed with a roman candle loose in the DMV....I'm sure the majority will side with me and more likely pushed me over the DMV counter and scream at the DMV worker to "Hurry the Hell up before we get NUKED"

**Testify**

Grundz wrote:
Melissia wrote:Most of which will not effect the average voter in any meaningful way.

Thats because the average voter doesn't make enough money to pay taxes to begin with anymore.

Yup. Frankly I look forward to the day when I can afford to pay taxes.

**ShumaGorath**

Lets start this off. He can stop- campaiging for fifteen minutes.
1) Dust off the Simpson Bowles Recommendations on the Budget, and formally request its submission to both houses of Congress. Not the usual speech nonsense, but propose an actual law. IF SB doesn't address tax reform. restart the commission to do so. They get 90 days and their recommendations will have astraight up or down vote.

Tax reform is a hoakie conservative boondoggle but doesn't really answer the structural economic issues America currently has. It has little to do with anything really. It's not hugely innefecient when compared globally to other tax systems. It's just an easy and lazy bullseye for conservatives that want to pretend they have ideas about how to help. It could be improved, but not quickly or easily and it wouldn't do much to help with current economic issues.

2) Through presidential executive order, Suspend the EPA from going through with its pending coal regulation for the remaining term of his office. Same to same for Salazar and reopen offshore development. Going forward the EPA would have to address cost benefit concerns before making new regulations.

This is a joke, right? You're kidding? Do you honestly think this would have any appreciable effect on the economy at all? Go ahead, open keystone, drill the coast, have oil prices drop 5-8% after five years only to have it last for three and then return to normal with no appreciable effect on unemployment numbers. I'm sure Exxon will love you.

Whats your deal with the EPA? Do you like acid rain? Are any of these suggestions going to be things I can't find written on the bathroom wall at a gunshow?

3). Formerly request as part of 1 above 1) funds to raise the ICE budget by 5x; 2) funds and implementation of a national biometric ID; 3) mandatory implementation of the E verify process for all employers; 4) assimilation of all illegal aliens in the US after background check using normal immigration procdures and timelines; 5) raise minimum wage by $1.00

There we go! Creating a massive and exceptionally expensive first in it's history IDing program for people already attempting to hide from law enforcement! And it's unconstitutional too! Now you're thinking like a liberal! Forcing the absorption of the working illegals and a raise of minimum wage isn't a bad idea. You'll destroy certain portions of our agricultural industries but those aren't jobs that actually benefit the populace. They just add to the race to the bottom for wages.

4) Create a similar commission on how to address structural economic and trade conditions similar to #1 above. They are to focus on ten things to do to improve conditions on a long term basis targeting middle class growth. topics include trade, education (including higher education and technical education - aka the German system), small and mid size busines growth.

Conservatives would feth it up, just like they did to the currently failing budget reform panel. Just like they did Obamacare. You put too much trust in the minority party. Most of what you've suggested (other than not really doing much) would get stonewalled immediately. Except the EPA thing of course.

With the exception of the suggestion on illegals none of this actually targets the structural issues with the American economy. I'm pretty sure the illegals thing was a happy accident too.

**sirlynchmob**

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Yes you're crazy, and evidently you don't pay enough taxes.

Go to the DMV or local tax office. Try to regreister your car or something. then tell me you like to pay taxes.

In the people's democratic republic of the UK you do it online and it takes a couple of minutes.

I don't know whether that is because our tax rate is higher or just because British people are better at doing government things.

Probably B. Here if you have to actually deal as a "customer" with the government, and not getting govenment money for something, you end up becoming a rabid "Destroys allgovmentz!!!" in about 18.7 seconds.

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Jihadin wrote:2 hours? Lucky

Indeed. Extremely lucky. I've been all day at the DMV before. After that I no longer feared hell.

You're guys states suck, in cali and in AZ I could make an appointment at the DMV. Arizona is great for drivers license, pay once, its good til your 65. Tags for the cars, you can get them to cover the next 2 years instead of every year, and you can do it online and have them mailed to your house.

This is how small governments should work, you make things easier on the people you represent and you need less employees to run all the DMV's. saving your people more in tax money you don't need to collect.

**Shadowseer_Kim**

The tax that is most ticking me off lately is the Federal Access Tax, or one of the others I do not remember the name of on every phone bill in the USA.

Since our president promised not to raise any taxes on lower income folk, the federal tax on phone service has give up at least 3 indivdual times. Not by much, but a few pennies or a dime each time. Small enough, most people just never noticied it, especially thanks to automatic payments set up.

Cigarattes, same thing. Federal Taxes on cigarettes have gone up, and it's well proven that poorer people smoke more than richer people.

Now there's this debate about raising taxes on everyone that makes more than $250,000, bad new for you people, that is such a low number that it will affect almost every small business owner out there, who will almost certainly not be hiring you anytime soon, especially with a tax hike, minimum wage increase, and/or healthcare nonsense.

I will not be hiring you, and would love some help in my shop, just can't afford it.

No wonder NON U6 unemployment is still above 8%. Oh wait, were we not promised that the stimulus President Obama passed help with that? Unemployment is higher since then, with some dips and bumps here and there, but overall higher.

I have never said this before, but what we have here is a failed presidency. My business, and my ability to continue to afford my house, food, etc can not withstand 4 more years of this.

**Frazzled**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Yes you're crazy, and evidently you don't pay enough taxes.

Go to the DMV or local tax office. Try to regreister your car or something. then tell me you like to pay taxes.

In the people's democratic republic of the UK you do it online and it takes a couple of minutes.

I don't know whether that is because our tax rate is higher or just because British people are better at doing government things.

Probably B. Here if you have to actually deal as a "customer" with the government, and not getting govenment money for something, you end up becoming a rabid "Destroys allgovmentz!!!" in about 18.7 seconds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihadin wrote:2 hours? Lucky

Indeed. Extremely lucky. I've been all day at the DMV before. After that I no longer feared hell.

You're guys states suck, in cali and in AZ I could make an appointment at the DMV. Arizona is great for drivers license, pay once, its good til your 65. Tags for the cars, you can get them to cover the next 2 years instead of every year, and you can do it online and have them mailed to your house.

This is how small governments should work, you make things easier on the people you represent and you need less employees to run all the DMV's. saving your people more in tax money you don't need to collect.

I was talking about the DMV in California.

**sirlynchmob**

Frazzled wrote:
I was talking about the DMV in California

Next time make an appointment

of course this is something new they started, dang nabbed kids now days. they've been doing it over 10 years now.

**Frazzled**

That would still be new to me.

I had an appointment with the passport agency once. I still had to wait 1.5 hours when I got there.

When i had to re-register my parent's vehicles as part of the execution of their vast estates, I had to go to the local atax assessor's office. I had to go three times and ending up waiting over 3 hours each time.

**Testify**

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:The tax that is most ticking me off lately is the Federal Access Tax, or one of the others I do not remember the name of on every phone bill in the USA.

Since our president promised not to raise any taxes on lower income folk, the federal tax on phone service has give up at least 3 indivdual times. Not by much, but a few pennies or a dime each time. Small enough, most people just never noticied it, especially thanks to automatic payments set up.

Tax is a %, not real terms. Did it rise as a % or as an actual amount?

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
Cigarattes, same thing. Federal Taxes on cigarettes have gone up, and it's well proven that poorer people smoke more than richer people.

I agree. Taxes on cigarettes and alcohol are essentially a poll tax on the poor, and no one in politics gives a gak about the poor.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
Now there's this debate about raising taxes on everyone that makes more than $250,000, bad new for you people, that is such a low number that it will affect almost every small business owner out there, who will almost certainly not be hiring you anytime soon, especially with a tax hike, minimum wage increase, and/or healthcare nonsense.

Small business owners do NOT make 250k a year. Most won't make even close to that.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
I will not be hiring you, and would love some help in my shop, just can't afford it.

Tax income!=taxing companies. If you want to hire employees, pay yourself less (since THAT is what is being taxed) and have the business pay for it.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
No wonder NON U6 unemployment is still above 8%. Oh wait, were we not promised that the stimulus President Obama passed help with that? Unemployment is higher since then, with some dips and bumps here and there, but overall higher.

Unless you have a few trillion dollars of demand, there's not a lot you can do. Don't let the fact that the presidant is trying to increase demand put you off

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:
I have never said this before, but what we have here is a failed presidency. My business, and my ability to continue to afford my house, food, etc can not withstand 4 more years of this.

People have been saying garbage like this for as long as I can remember. Everyone wants higher profits for themselves at the expense of the public at large, that's natural. It's the government's job to ignore it, unless you're right-wing.

**Shadowseer_Kim**

I do not know what the actual % increase on the phone tax has been off hand, and it has happened several time. all I know is because of it, my phone bill is nearly a dollar higher as a result since this President took office.

**sirlynchmob**

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I do not know what the actual % increase on the phone tax has been off hand, and it has happened several time. all I know is because of it, my phone bill is nearly a dollar higher as a result since this President took office.

Oh the inhumanity.

if its a federal tax, sure go ahead and blame him, it could just as likely be a state tax.

**Testify**

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi

**Vulcan**

Melissia wrote:
Frazzled wrote:OK. Raise taxes on those making over $250,000 a year. Meh whatever.

Now that we've gotten yet another sideshow out of the way, what are you going to do AFTER FOUR YEARS to actually address the structural probloems with the economy Mr. President? Millions of unemployed people are listening.
Let's be honest. Even if he did come up with a great idea, the Republicans wouldn't let him because it was proposed by Obama, which means it's evil™.

And socialist, which is also always evil too.

Because unregulated free capitolism does such a good job of the average worker...

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Testify wrote:Give a rich man $1m and he will buy a house, or invest in a business.
Give a thousand poor men $100 and they will buy goods and services with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

"Trickle down economics" is bollocks. One of the reasons western economies are stagnating is because we have allowed wealth to accumulate in the few, instead of being spent by the many.

EXACTLY!

An economy is money in motion Money sitting in a bank account, or tied up in Wall Street, is money... sitting still.

A rich person with a million dollars invests it. It stays there all month. It gets counted once for the monthly economy, because it was only 'earned' once.

1000 Poor men spend their $100 on, say, groceries. The stores spend it on produce. The famer spends it on a new tractor. The manufactuer pays his people. They buy... whatever. And so on, and so forth. That same million dollars changes hands several times, each time being 'earned' by exchange of labor or goods. In this short example, it changes hands five times and gets counted as FIVE million dollars in the monthily economy.

The amount of money hasn't changed; it's just not counted and recounted as often because the economy is slow and the money isn't moving as quickly.

And rich people DON'T move money as fast as poor - or even average - people do, because rich people can AFFORD to leave the money sitting, in VASTLY higher percentages than any middle-class worker could.

**d-usa**

It's basically trickle down economics, but closer to the bottom. Trickle-down only works if the water ends up hitting the ground and the seeds, the higher up you start the more likely you are to have it end up in a rain barrel.

**Vulcan**

d-usa wrote:It's basically trickle down economics, but closer to the bottom. Trickle-down only works if the water ends up hitting the ground and the seeds, the higher up you start the more likely you are to have it end up in a rain barrel.

a.k.a a nice, fat investment portfolio.

**Melissia**

Grundz wrote:
Melissia wrote:Most of which will not effect the average voter in any meaningful way.

Thats because the average voter doesn't make enough money to pay taxes to begin with anymore.

Anymore? You mean, they never really did.

**ShumaGorath**

Melissia wrote:
Grundz wrote:
Melissia wrote:Most of which will not effect the average voter in any meaningful way.

Thats because the average voter doesn't make enough money to pay taxes to begin with anymore.
Anymore? You mean, they never really did.

You're both wrong, the average voter does indeed make enough to pay taxes without a full refund.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

Please review.

**broodstar**

Another figure backing up shuma.

Last year I made $18,200, I did actually pay $2,300 in federal payroll taxes, however, I got 3100 in tax credits. So in true even though I'm working and paying my taxes, my refund exceeds my taxs owed. I am one of the 47% of Americans that don't pay taxes.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

**sebster**

Frazzled wrote:There's your problem right there and why we are floundering. Stimulus is short term nonsense. We have deep structural problems in the economy. These problems will take focused efforts on a massive scale at the local, state, and national level. Stimulus, spending, none of that addresses those.

We need massive tax reform. We need massive fiscal reform. We need massive education reform. We need massive trade reform. We need massive spending reform. We need massive immigration (illegal) reform. We need massive international relation reform.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets start this off. He can stop- campaiging for fifteen minutes.
1) Dust off the Simpson Bowles Recommendations on the Budget, and formally request its submission to both houses of Congress. Not the usual speech nonsense, but propose an actual law. IF SB doesn't address tax reform. restart the commission to do so. They get 90 days and their recommendations will have astraight up or down vote.

2) Through presidential executive order, Suspend the EPA from going through with its pending coal regulation for the remaining term of his office. Same to same for Salazar and reopen offshore development. Going forward the EPA would have to address cost benefit concerns before making new regulations.

3). Formerly request as part of 1 above 1) funds to raise the ICE budget by 5x; 2) funds and implementation of a national biometric ID; 3) mandatory implementation of the E verify process for all employers; 4) assimilation of all illegal aliens in the US after background check using normal immigration procdures and timelines; 5) raise minimum wage by $1.00

4) Create a similar commission on how to address structural economic and trade conditions similar to #1 above. They are to focus on ten things to do to improve conditions on a long term basis targeting middle class growth. topics include trade, education (including higher education and technical education - aka the German system), small and mid size busines growth.

Thats a start. I have more but then you'd have to vote for Frazzled.

I don't really agree on the EPA, or on concern over trade conditions (it is very, very funny to hear Americans complain about trade conditions) but in general I agree on the rest. But we've had this problem before, it isn't hard to come up with a plan to fix the long term problems in the US, the problem is coming up with a plan that you can get a majority to agree on. For instance, your plan offers a raise in the minimum wage - well right there you've pissed off a whole lot of libertarians and pro-business right wingers. Assimilation of illegal immigrants will lose you a lot more. You'll lose any possible support from people with strong environmental priorities, as well. From there it's going to be hard to draw together a majority, no matter how much the plan as a whole is good for the US.

That's basically the problem with any broad approach, looking at long term reform. Any suggestion will inevitably threaten the sacred cows of enough people that you can't claim overall support any more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:Tax reform is a hoakie conservative boondoggle but doesn't really answer the structural economic issues America currently has. It has little to do with anything really. It's not hugely innefecient when compared globally to other tax systems. It's just an easy and lazy bullseye for conservatives that want to pretend they have ideas about how to help. It could be improved, but not quickly or easily and it wouldn't do much to help with current economic issues.

No seriously, US tax law is a shambles. The cost to administer is significantly greater to administer (especially for companies up to about $1,000,000 in turnover) than other countries, and there is an incredible number of points of just plain unfairness within the system (both points where you will end up being double taxed, and points where you can double count exemptions and end up with very low rates of tax).

It really comes down to their being no simple, general concept for what a person ought to pay tax on. Without that there's no general consistency in tax rules, and that leads to a tax code that is really just a mess of individual rules that generally make sense in isolation, but interact with each other to produce endlessly complex, and frequently stupid final results. It's the 40K 2nd Ed of tax codes.

**ShumaGorath**

No seriously, US tax law is a shambles. The cost to administer is significantly greater to administer (especially for companies up to about $1,000,000 in turnover) than other countries, and there is an incredible number of points of just plain unfairness within the system (both points where you will end up being double taxed, and points where you can double count exemptions and end up with very low rates of tax).

It really comes down to their being no simple, general concept for what a person ought to pay tax on. Without that there's no general consistency in tax rules, and that leads to a tax code that is really just a mess of individual rules that generally make sense in isolation, but interact with each other to produce endlessly complex, and frequently stupid final results. It's the 40K 2nd Ed of tax codes.

And despite that we have one of the highest thruputs on tax in the western world. Tax codes, whether simple or complex, are an artifact of public effort. When compared to western European/asian/african/south american countries the lack of tax evasion and general plausibility of belief in our system is impressive. It's a bad system, but the cost to administer it is low in the totality of our government expense and it's not what is ailing the economy. It's just a bad toe. Fixing the tax system wouldn't go very far towards fixing Americas structural economic issues which are based largely in education, healthcare, and social trends that devalue work and make things like regressive payscales in untrained work (such as in landscaping) acceptable in the eyes of voters.

**sebster**

Vulcan wrote:An economy is money in motion Money sitting in a bank account, or tied up in Wall Street, is money... sitting still.

An economy isn't money at all. An economy is goods and services - money is just the medium for exchange.

Thinking of an economy as money has let you think of that rich person's money as just sitting there - but in reality that's money that's been invested, even just as a term deposit, and in turn the bank has then lent that money to other people who will invest it, which in turn means goods and services being bought.

I agree with you that trickle down economics don't work (but then everyone always knew that, the idea was a marginal one in economic circles that had never been properly shown to work, before Reagan and pals jumped on it and pretended it was true), but you have to be careful about going too far the other way, and believing too much of the economics argued by left wingers with just as little credibility as Reagan.

**broodstar**

sebster wrote:
Vulcan wrote:An economy is money in motion Money sitting in a bank account, or tied up in Wall Street, is money... sitting still.

An economy isn't money at all. An economy is goods and services - money is just the medium for exchange.

Thinking of an economy as money has let you think of that rich person's money as just sitting there - but in reality that's money that's been invested, even just as a term deposit, and in turn the bank has then lent that money to other people who will invest it, which in turn means goods and services being bought.

I agree with you that trickle down economics don't work (but then everyone always knew that, the idea was a marginal one in economic circles that had never been properly shown to work, before Reagan and pals jumped on it and pretended it was true), but you have to be careful about going too far the other way, and believing too much of the economics argued by left wingers with just as little credibility as Reagan.

So, you're saying that both Keynes and FA Hayak were wrong?

**TheWildHost**

Frazzled wrote:OK. Raise taxes on those making over $250,000 a year. Meh whatever.

Now that we've gotten yet another sideshow out of the way, what are you going to do AFTER FOUR YEARS to actually address the structural probloems with the economy Mr. President? Millions of unemployed people are listening.

Calm down, It isn't in the presidents duty to create/destroy jobs.

EDIT: I accidentally a word

**Testify**

sebster wrote:
Vulcan wrote:An economy is money in motion Money sitting in a bank account, or tied up in Wall Street, is money... sitting still.

An economy isn't money at all. An economy is goods and services - money is just the medium for exchange.

Thinking of an economy as money has let you think of that rich person's money as just sitting there - but in reality that's money that's been invested, even just as a term deposit, and in turn the bank has then lent that money to other people who will invest it, which in turn means goods and services being bought.

I agree with you that trickle down economics don't work (but then everyone always knew that, the idea was a marginal one in economic circles that had never been properly shown to work, before Reagan and pals jumped on it and pretended it was true), but you have to be careful about going too far the other way, and believing too much of the economics argued by left wingers with just as little credibility as Reagan.

No one is suggesting that an economy without investment is healthy, but you're not honestly suggesting that the concentration of wealth into a few hundred thousand very wealthy people can possibly be better for the economy than higher wages for the average worker?

**Kilkrazy**

A lot of savings and investment is done by people of ordinary means, either individually or through their pension funds.

I don't know the proportion compared to the money of the super rich.

**Testify**

Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of savings and investment is done by people of ordinary means, either individually or through their pension funds.

I don't know the proportion compared to the money of the super rich.

Much lower.
Many people on lower incomes don't save at all.

**Kilkrazy**

What is the proportion of wealth in pension funds compared to the wealth owned by the rich?

**Easy E**

broodstar wrote:Another figure backing up shuma.

Last year I made $18,200, I did actually pay $2,300 in federal payroll taxes, however, I got 3100 in tax credits. So in true even though I'm working and paying my taxes, my refund exceeds my taxs owed. I am one of the 47% of Americans that don't pay taxes.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf

You paid, Throughout the year, you did not have access to this money and it was deducted from your earnings.

However, the government realized you overpaid by their own rules, and therefore paid you back.... without interest though. If you would have been able to put that same amount into a bank, you may have received less than .5% back, and therefore earned money on it.