2nd 6th edition battle: SabrX's SoBs vs. Janthkin's Necrons (Complete; final comments on pg. 2)

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**pretre**

Holy crud, how big an event was it? Congrats, Amerikon and you better post a thread!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SabrX wrote:I made a critical mistake bottom of turn two with placing Jacob up front. I didn't expect I would fail 'Look Out Sir!' roll.

It was a another kick in the groin when I roll snake eyes for their charge range. These new random charge rolls is killing me! Sucks when it matters the most.

It was amusing however having the 3 Crusaders up front soak up a lot of damage after getting rapid-fired by Immortals.

Yeah, in my experience so far, Jacobus needs to be in the center of the mob with the Crusaders spread into the front and two front corners towards your enemy (in a crescent) as they are super important to suck up hits.

Just as an FYI, it was good that your conclave rolled snake eyes since their transport was wrecked on the last turn and you can't assault the assault phase after you disembarked.

**Janthkin**

pretre wrote:Holy crud, how big an event was it? Congrats, Amerikon and you better post a thread!

Not huge; little 11 or 12-person tournament at our local gaming store.

Just as an FYI, it was good that your conclave rolled snake eyes since their transport was wrecked on the last turn and you can't assault the assault phase after you disembarked.

As best as I can tell, they could have Assaulted just fine - they disembarked on the previous turn (my turn, when their vehicle was wrecked), and the prohibition is against assaulting on the same turn. (Remember that "turn" equals "player turn" unless otherwise specified.)

**pretre**

P79:
After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to run in their subsequent shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase.

P80
Wrecked: The passenges must immediately disembark...

Getting Wrecked sucks now. You count as moving for shooting in your next Shooting phase and can't assault in your next assault. Pray you get exploded.l

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IMO, rhino based assault troops will go the way of the dodo. You have to stand in the open for a full turn in order to assault after disembarking (even non-voluntarily).

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For my Uriah Bomb, I'm either dropping it or running it as a walking unit and having it chill behind an aegis. (Uriah runs the gun.)

**Janthkin**

pretre wrote:P79:
After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to run in their subsequent shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase.

P80
Wrecked: The passenges must immediately disembark...

Eww. "Their subsequent...phase." Nasty choice of phrase, that. I doubt it's intentional (too subtle for GW), but that is how it's written.

**Amerikon**

Janthkin wrote:
pretre wrote:P79:
After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to run in their subsequent shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase.

P80
Wrecked: The passenges must immediately disembark...
Eww. "Their subsequent...phase." Nasty choice of phrase, that. I doubt it's intentional (too subtle for GW), but that is how it's written.

I'm not so sure. Without that rule, there are situations where it's better for an embarked assault unit to have its transport get popped since it would free them to assault in the next turn. I think that if you're creating rules that make it harder for embarked units to assault that's almost a necessary restriction.

**SabrX**

Another nail in the coffin for mech assault infantry that aren't in assault vehicles. I already decided from this btrp my conclave will for now on slog on foot.

**pretre**

Amerikon wrote:I'm not so sure. Without that rule, there are situations where it's better for an embarked assault unit to have its transport get popped since it would free them to assault in the next turn. I think that if you're creating rules that make it harder for embarked units to assault that's almost a necessary restriction.

Yeah, in my first game of 6th (before I knew about the phase wording). I was actually using Uriah's rhino with no smoke to provide cover for the rest of my army. "Please shoot that rhino. Thanks!"

SabrX wrote:Another nail in the coffin for mech assault infantry that aren't in assault vehicles. I already decided from this btrp my conclave will for now on slog on foot.

Think about the Aegis. It is cheap and gets you skyfire. You place it at the 6" past your deployment zone and put Uriah on the line with his guys.

Turn 1, if you go first, you move 6" and occupy it, now threatening 6(or 2d6)+2d6" away from you with a nasty choppy unit. You also get 4+ cover and 5+ FNP and a BS5 Skyfire/Interceptor gun.
If you go second, you are still behind the Aegis, so get your cover until you can move up on it.

At my next tourney, I'm gonna try out Uriah and a 20 man blob with two AC in an Aegis as a home base scorer. Muhahaha.

**yakface**

Janthkin wrote:
pretre wrote:P79:
After disembarking, models can shoot, counting as having moved, or choose to run in their subsequent shooting phase, but cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase.

P80
Wrecked: The passenges must immediately disembark...
Eww. "Their subsequent...phase." Nasty choice of phrase, that. I doubt it's intentional (too subtle for GW), but that is how it's written.

Well, the thing about this rule, is as stupid as it is, if you don't apply it RAW then it means most of the time it is actually a positive for your opponent to leave your vehicle alone, because doing so ensures the unit inside won't be able to charge.

If you assume that GW screwed up this rule and wrote it wrong, all of a sudden it becomes a huge benefit to the unit inside to be shot out of its vehicle, which seems pretty lame too.

So I actually hope GW intended it to be written this way.

Now, I have a much bigger problem with the 'explodes' result which yet again failed to include any verbiage in this edition that indicates that the embarked models count as disembarking...so by RAW if your vehicle explodes suddenly its the very best option for the unit inside as now it is free to charge to its heart's content!

**SabrX**

yakface wrote:so by RAW if your vehicle explodes suddenly its the very best option for the unit inside as now it is free to charge to its heart's content!

Unless they roll

So far in each game I've played, I've failed assault charges when they meant the most.

Seems like GW should get better editors. Too many obscure rules.

**DarthDiggler**

Page 80. Second column, third paragraph at the top.

"However, if a Transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot it that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers."

We take that to mean 'destroyed' means both wrecked and explodes and it confers disembarking on Botha sets of passengers. So an explodes result does not circumvent the disembarking rule.

**Leth**

Transporting shooting units is actually quite interesting now. You move faster, easier time getting into position quicker deploy out.

Also for assaulty armies it just requires being more tactical and actually planning in advance now. No more bum rushing you have to plan your actions a turn in advance

**Kris Knives**

Thanks for sharing a SoB Batrep.

I agree with the complaints about failed assaults. I have not played a lot of 6th games but so far they don't seem to make the game more strategic for CC focused armies just more arbitrary. I've yet to see anyone make a 10"+ charge that swung the game in the attacker's favor but I've seen plenty of charges botched by bad rolls or lucky snap fire.

**Janthkin**

Kris Knives wrote: I've yet to see anyone make a 10"+ charge that swung the game in the attacker's favor but I've seen plenty of charges botched by bad rolls or lucky snap fire.

I pulled off one of those this past weekend. The Swarmlord (self-buffed with Warp Speed) managed an 11" charge through terrain to cut down a Dreadknight at an opportune moment.

Fleet & Jump units love the random charge distance, as they can further weight the expected distribution curve.

**iGuy91**

Very good report, quick question. Did the scarabs ever manage to wound Celestine? If so, she would have lost her armor save. Not sure if that was the case or not, just a thought.

Great pictures too, pretty close game!

**Janthkin**

iGuy91 wrote:Very good report, quick question. Did the scarabs ever manage to wound Celestine? If so, she would have lost her armor save. Not sure if that was the case or not, just a thought.

Good point, and a point I had forgotten about. Didn't happen, as I recall.

**happygolucky**

Its a good BatRep very enjoyable, look forward to seeing more

.

**Janthkin**

Some after-game thoughts:

Sisters of Battle:

SabrX wrote:That was a brutal game. The Scarabs just won't die! Fearless horde units are crazy rediculous in this edition. If it weren't for them, I may have had a chance to swung this game around. Janthkin pulled a fast one on me with deep-striking Lord and Warriors. Skyfire scoring Exorcists didn't help in this game. Janthkin simply made it night fighting using Solar Pulse and positioned his flyers outside the range of the Exorcists. I still can't believe a single Death Ray killed both Exorcists in a single shot. Ouch!

Overall I made a few tactical mistakes throughout this game:
-Should have spread out my vehicles more (though not good that will do considering Scarabs rolled 11" for assault distance).
-Do deployed Jacob and company outside of the Rhino and slog on foot.
-Don't place Jacob up front.
-Leave Jacob in position to protect home objective or mid-objective while Celestine would have been better off killing Spyders.
-Should have brought Aegis Defence Line and deploy it closer to the middle behind vehicle train.
-Position vehicles for possible search-lighting flyers.

Had the game ended on turn 5, it would have been a draw. Unfortunately the game continued to turn 6.

Great game Janthkin. Well played!

Necrons:

Janthkin wrote:Interesting outcome. First thing I noticed - mobility is even MORE important in 6e than it was in 5e. Why?
a) Vehicles can't contest objectives, nor can units still inside transports;
b) Units can only claim/contest a single objective at a time; and
c) Objectives can be even further spread out than before.

Second thing of note: Scarabs are NASTY now. No penalty to Fearlessness, plus the ease of hitting non-flyer vehicles with Entropic attacks, plus their Beast movement, makes for a very potent unit. Just watch out for flamers.

Third thing of note: Necron Flyers are good against small units or single-target-units (like vehicles). Trying to clear a bunch of bodies off the field with them is much, much less effective. (I noticed this in my game w/jy2 earlier - Tesla Destructors are fun guns, but aren't going to bother a horde all that much.)

Fourth: "Hammer and Anvil" is an interesting deployment type, and it would be a serious shame if it never appears in tournament play. Yes, it's a deeper battlefield, and yes, there are logisitical issues, but the width of the engagement area is smaller than a "pitched battle" setup - it's easier to engage side-to-side this way, if you follow. But you'll NEED some good mobility for this mission - my "home" objective on the Necron temple was never seriously threatened, and it would have been even nastier if I had just stuck the two objectives 6" in from my table edge - SabrX would never have gotten there.

SabrX, thank you for a fun game, and I hope the experience against the Necrons was useful to you in your own game playing with them!

**Ricter**

Thanks for the thoughts.

**pretre**

Good thoughts!

**yakface**

Janthkin wrote:
Fourth: "Hammer and Anvil" is an interesting deployment type, and it would be a serious shame if it never appears in tournament play. Yes, it's a deeper battlefield, and yes, there are logisitical issues, but the width of the engagement area is smaller than a "pitched battle" setup - it's easier to engage side-to-side this way, if you follow. But you'll NEED some good mobility for this mission - my "home" objective on the Necron temple was never seriously threatened, and it would have been even nastier if I had just stuck the two objectives 6" in from my table edge - SabrX would never have gotten there.

I get what you're saying here for sure...obviously the inclusion of this deployment type and the ability to place objectives 6" from your 'back' edge puts an extreme premium on mobile units and those who are able to outflank, deep strike, etc, and therefore it gives reasons to include these units.

For example, it would seem at first glance that outflanking units are fairly pointless now as they can't assault on the turn they arrive. But once you consider this deployment type and have objectives 6" from the short edges, then all of a sudden being able to bring a unit on from the long edges all the way down in the opponent's deployment zone makes that ability tasty (not to mention considering the 'linebreaker' secondary objective).

But with that said, I think the premium is TOO exaggerated here. This SOB army was completely mechanized and still had no real shot of getting anywhere near your objective, and if he had tried you would have picked apart the isolated units going for it.

So I get that this deployment type and completely unbalanced objective placement REALLY encourages mobility in armies, but I think it is much too much. Unless you have EXTREME mobility in your army it is really, really tough to threaten objectives 6" away from a short table edge in hammer & anvil deployment.

**Janthkin**

yakface wrote:For example, it would seem at first glance that outflanking units are fairly pointless now as they can't assault on the turn they arrive. But once you consider this deployment type and have objectives 6" from the short edges, then all of a sudden being able to bring a unit on from the long edges all the way down in the opponent's deployment zone makes that ability tasty (not to mention considering the 'linebreaker' secondary objective).

But with that said, I think the premium is TOO exaggerated here. This SOB army was completely mechanized and still had no real shot of getting anywhere near your objective, and if he had tried you would have picked apart the isolated units going for it.

So I get that this deployment type and completely unbalanced objective placement REALLY encourages mobility in armies, but I think it is much too much. Unless you have EXTREME mobility in your army it is really, really tough to threaten objectives 6" away from a short table edge in hammer & anvil deployment.

Those outflanking Dominions COULD have come on over by my board edge; while they lacked the ability to hold them, they could certainly contest them. And as a bonus, by coming in right in the corners, they are effectively immune to Flyers (who have to Zoom onto the board at least 18"). And if they had come on back there, I would have had to redirect some of my advance forces to deal with it, which means that maybe some of the advancing Rhinos DO get to drive closer.

Plus, mechanized armies have gained the ability to drive "Flat Out" as well, giving them the option of driving up 18" into the 24" no-man's zone on turn 1.

I've played "Hammer & Anvil" three times so far, twice with my Tyranids. In both Tyranid games, the enemy objective was at or near the 6" line. I've won all three games, and I'm certain it's because I did a better job of controlling the whole battlefield than my opponent.

That said, the ability to put objectives at the 6" point is stupid, and you should have to place objectives before rolling deployment edges. But in the context of the rules for the scenario as presented, it's not as bad as I initially thought it would be.

**jy2**

I think the problem really isn't in the deployment as it is in the army-design phase. With the emphasis of 6E so heavily on objectives-based scenarios, people need to take that into consideration when building their armies. They need to:

1) have enough scoring units.

2) have some way of getting to far objectives.

If not, then their army just isn't balanced enough and they need to rethink their strategy, starting from the list-building phase.

**yakface**

Janthkin wrote:Those outflanking Dominions COULD have come on over by my board edge; while they lacked the ability to hold them, they could certainly contest them. And as a bonus, by coming in right in the corners, they are effectively immune to Flyers (who have to Zoom onto the board at least 18"). And if they had come on back there, I would have had to redirect some of my advance forces to deal with it, which means that maybe some of the advancing Rhinos DO get to drive closer.

The rules specify your flyers can come in from reserve at any angle you want, so you can totally come on near one of your corners at an extreme angle, flying along your back board edge and be able to shoot at enemy units that are hugging your board edge near the opposite corner.

**Janthkin**

yakface wrote:
Janthkin wrote:Those outflanking Dominions COULD have come on over by my board edge; while they lacked the ability to hold them, they could certainly contest them. And as a bonus, by coming in right in the corners, they are effectively immune to Flyers (who have to Zoom onto the board at least 18"). And if they had come on back there, I would have had to redirect some of my advance forces to deal with it, which means that maybe some of the advancing Rhinos DO get to drive closer.

The rules specify your flyers can come in from reserve at any angle you want, so you can totally come on near one of your corners at an extreme angle, flying along your back board edge and be able to shoot at enemy units that are hugging your board edge near the opposite corner.

Sorry, should have finished out the thought. Drive on, then Flat Out - you're now 18" onto the board. Take a look at that Necron Temple. I seriously doubt I could have found an angle to come on that let me fire on those rhinos, if they were snugged up against the Temple.

While I can choose any angle I want, I still have to a) come on in a straight line and b) get fully onto the board, while c) moving at least 18", d) with guns that only have 22.5 degrees of traverse to the side (45 degrees total angle). I've played around with this a little on a tabletop - there is a dead zone for flyers that they just can't effect.

(So in short: Snikrot lives! Also, Zagstruk & some Storm Boyz look pretty attractive - he's one of the few "assault from Reserves" units still in the game, and Jump Infantry in general are very good right now.)

**yakface**

Janthkin wrote:]Sorry, should have finished out the thought. Drive on, then Flat Out - you're now 18" onto the board. Take a look at that Necron Temple. I seriously doubt I could have found an angle to come on that let me fire on those rhinos, if they were snugged up against the Temple.

While I can choose any angle I want, I still have to a) come on in a straight line and b) get fully onto the board, while c) moving at least 18", d) with guns that only have 22.5 degrees of traverse to the side (45 degrees total angle). I've played around with this a little on a tabletop - there is a dead zone for flyers that they just can't effect.

(So in short: Snikrot lives! Also, Zagstruk & some Storm Boyz look pretty attractive - he's one of the few "assault from Reserves" units still in the game, and Jump Infantry in general are very good right now.)

No Snikrot is dead. I've thought about it a lot. He plus the boyz are just too many points to just be objective contesters. They were barely worth their points when they could assault upon arrival and mainly were just good for psychological warfare, rarely making back their points in actual kills.

Although they can come on from any edge, they're just too many points to play just for the right combo of deployment and mission objectives...and even if the right enemy army/deployment/mission combo does hit, they're still ridiculously easy to kill. Yeah, you'd have to divert a few Scythes to take care of them, but it wouldn't take much.

Zagstruk on the other hand looks amazing on paper.

**SabrX**

Don't forget, outflanking is also random. In this game, I didn't roll a single 5 or 6 for my Dominions.

yakface brought up a good argument. Vehicles are rediculously easy to kill now that they are only WS1. No 5th ed vehicle blockade runners. Tomb Spyders, Gauss Weapons, and Entropic Strike Scarabs can easily deal with light transports.

Wish I had more Saint Celestines. She makes an awesome warlord and objective contester. She could single handedly deny Slay the Warlord, contest objective, and count towards Line Breaker assuming she's still alive on the last turn. She's like ever-living except if she fails, the can try resurrecting next turn.

**pretre**

Celestine plus seraphim is looking like an auto include. I'm going to do more testing, but it is a great unit.