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KGatch113 wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh

"One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid argument."

Speaking of which, I did not insult you personally, but you have insulted us, simply because no one that has posted agrees with your statements or rule interpretation. Also 2 v 1 is a majority, interpretation or language spoken doesn't change this fact, it is a constant. Out of frustration, you turn to insults. You should give the forum rules a read and learn how to correctly interpret those rules as well as the ones in the BRB for sake of future posts. Since you aren't getting the only answer you want to hear, I suggest other outlets for your rule debate.

I was not making an insult, but stating a fact.

Wow, I haven't heard this argument since grade school. Real winner there. "Its not an insult if it's true." It takes a brilliant mind to not actually refute arguments and just label everything as "inference and opinion" and write it all off. Well done.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:

As shown in your quotes above, you only join an IC to a unit DURING deployment.

Your problem stems from that you have interpretated the meaning of ''Deployment'' in a faulty manner.

Deployment refers to the entire phase where models ar sorted, grouped and placed on the battlefield or in reserves. 'Before Deployment' as you obsess about, is when you set up terrain and place objectives. As far as the rules are concerned the players armies does not exist as part of the game until this has been resolved and Deployment starts.
Shrikes rule says indeed that he gives the rule before deployment but this does not refer to 'before the deployment phase' but to 'before the Deploy Forces' step of Deployment.

Right. Deployment is when you....get this...hold on....place the models on the table, or put them in reserves. You show the model has joined the squad by placement on the table, either actually, or figuratively in the case of a vehicle or in reserves.

There are no provision in the rules to join a unit that can not be held back without cause. Shrike can not be joined to a unit off the table and not held in reserves. You have presented no evidence to support that or contradict me.

Shrike is not being held back without cause. He is being held back to infiltrate. With the squad he joined before he was, how did you say it...placed on the table.
So, your interpretation is that there are only two ways to join a unit at the start of a game: to deploy within 2" of the unit or to be placed in reserve together. This breaks other rules though so try to follow along. I will try to go slow so you can keep up. (This is not an insult it is a fact. Because I said it is so it must be true) In this logical deduction we have 2 premises. A DT can only hold the squad that purchased it when it is placed on the table, (premise 1) and an IC is not able to join a unit before they are actually placed on the table, unless they are being placed in reserves (premise 2). Neither of these premises are in conflict with what you have previously stated. If they are true then we can deduce that an IC cannot deploy in the DT since he had to have joined the unit before being placed on the table to be part of the unit that bought the DT. This is, however, in direct conflict with the rule that says that an IC can deploy in a DT with the unit. Therefore there must be more than 2 ways for an IC to join a unit, and since it is clear that an IC can join a unit before it deploys then the codex stating that Shrike gives his squad infiltrate can happen before deployment.

Captain Antivas wrote:
Next you have the next reasonable interpretation that a Command Squad could infiltrate with him. But seeing as how a Command Squad is not a retinue, in fact the errata specifically changes the wording from a Command squad being a retinue to an extra HQ unit, so again Shrike doesn't start in their squad automatically. But a Command Squad is his squad, they are his boys. Is GW really saying I can't join a captain with his Command Squad?

As was previously mentioned BRB pg. 121 states that a unit and any IC that joined that unit can deploy in the transport, but this is in direct conflict with page 39 that says an IC cannot join a unit until they deploy in coherency. So we are stuck, right? Wrong. We look at what the rule used to say, which was Shrike and models in his squad, which now says Shrike and any unit he joined before deployment. Since it is unlikely that GW would directly contradict themselves it is more likely that there are two definitions of "joined".

Also in the C:SM faq someone asks about which Chapter Tactics the army takes and when that is declared. GW said it must be declared on the army list. This is relevant because it establishes a trend that adding things to the list is important. It us therefore my interpretation that IC are "joined" when making your list, thus allowing them to deploy in a dedicated transport with their unit, and if not specifically stated on the list when they deploy on the table.

Except that Shrike can join any unit, and this is supposed to be done when deployment occurs, not when the list is made up.

Oh no guys, I may have to change my opinion on this issue since I am not sure how to refute the "NO U" argument.


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KGatch113 wrote:

Kreedos wrote:The SM faq still gives him permission to join models before deployment.

From FAQ

(and any models in a unit that he has joined before deployment)...

This infers he is still allowed to join a unit before deployment.

Specific > Vague
Codex+FAQ > Rulebook

That is not permission. If they had said Shrike may join a unit before deployment....but they don't.

It certainly is. The entry says that any unit that joins him before deployment get a bonus, and since the bonus is dependent on him joining a unit before deployment then he must be able to do so. For example:

An imaginary Invitation sent to you wrote:You are invited to a party and any friends that come with you can have access to the All-You-Can-Drink Mini Bar.

Now the invitation does not specifically say you can bring friends, but what friends you do bring get a bonus. By saying friends that come with you get a bonus is saying you can bring friends. If it does not why would they tell you that your friends get a bonus? To taunt you?

KGatch113 wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh

"One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid argument."

Speaking of which, I did not insult you personally, but you have insulted us, simply because no one that has posted agrees with your statements or rule interpretation. Also 2 v 1 is a majority, interpretation or language spoken doesn't change this fact, it is a constant. Out of frustration, you turn to insults. You should give the forum rules a read and learn how to correctly interpret those rules as well as the ones in the BRB for sake of future posts. Since you aren't getting the only answer you want to hear, I suggest other outlets for your rule debate.

I was not making an insult, but stating a fact.

The only fact I see here is that you're not getting your way, so you're going to be rude and consistently say that everyone else is wrong, even when not a single person has agreed you are correct in your twisted rules argument. Like an above poster said, the game is about having fun, it sounds like you're trying to break the game for another player, which in that case, I don't understand why he'd ever want to play with you. I really think it's time you hit the high road, and e-mail GW, you're trying to exploit a technicality which creates a loop hole in the rules. Like many other posters have said, there is a duality to your argument. If you were correct, no IC would be able to join a squad in a transport, like many others have posted, and you wouldn't be able to so something like, infiltrating with an IC in a transport, because you state a IC doesn't join a unit till it hits the table, even though it says under infiltrate rules that infiltrating in a vehicle is possible. Your assessment breaks the rules in many ways, if you have such a problem with it, refer to page 4 under the heading "The most important rule." Which would require you to roll off in a disagreement, since it is the most important rule, it trumps any other rules and or disagreements you have. Either way, no one has agreed with you, you're wrong in many situations including poor sportsmanship, and you keep insisting you're correct, even when you've been presented multiple different ways in which you aren't. This happens multiple times in Dakka debates when a user insists they're correct, when faced with a majority ruling that they're not. You're being intentionally thick, and very stubborn, and you aren't going to get the answer you want to hear, so I don't understand why you're continuing this debate, which is clearly one sided. After this post I'm done with this thread, you've got your answer, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean you should be stubborn and not admit that you could possibly be wrong. Just to be clear, the majority is now 7 to 1, and we all have a firm grasp of the English language.

8 to 1

KGatch, this is just silly. Have you actually ever seen someone fight this fight while standing across the table from an opponent? I'm just curious (and would love to hear the story if it happened). Is there a point to this stance, as in there is a RL problem at your club over this, or are we trying to define "the" just for the fun of it?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
and BTW, the FAQ quote, just gave him permission to join a squad before deployment in the eyes of every non-TFG. If someone pulled this at my club, they could either shut up or find the door.

Shrike is not being held back without cause. He is being held back to infiltrate. With the squad he joined before he was, how did you say it...placed on the table.
So, your interpretation is that there are only two ways to join a unit at the start of a game: to deploy within 2" of the unit or to be placed in reserve together. This breaks other rules though so try to follow along. I will try to go slow so you can keep up. (This is not an insult it is a fact. Because I said it is so it must be true) In this logical deduction we have 2 premises. A DT can only hold the squad that purchased it when it is placed on the table, (premise 1) and an IC is not able to join a unit before they are actually placed on the table, unless they are being placed in reserves (premise 2). Neither of these premises are in conflict with what you have previously stated. If they are true then we can deduce that an IC cannot deploy in the DT since he had to have joined the unit before being placed on the table to be part of the unit that bought the DT. This is, however, in direct conflict with the rule that says that an IC can deploy in a DT with the unit. Therefore there must be more than 2 ways for an IC to join a unit, and since it is clear that an IC can join a unit before it deploys then the codex stating that Shrike gives his squad infiltrate can happen before deployment.

I'll go slowly for you.

Page 39 of the rules details how you join an IC to a squad. It is not my interpretation, it is how you do it, by the book. You either place the model on the table in coherency, or you put him in reserves. You can not join a unit any other way, by the book.

As for joining an IC to a unit in a dedicated transport, well, first this has no bearing on the issue at hand, but the proper way to do it is to put the DT on the table, say the squad is in there, and then say the IC is joining that squad located in the vehicle. This satisfies the rules on page 39. Can you easily say I'm joining the IC to the squad and putting them in the DT on the table? Yes, because it achieves the legal result, even though you did it in the wrong order. You can not do so with Shrike, because it violates the rules on page 39.

So now you have Shrike. And again, as I have stated time and time again, there are no rules in the rulebook that say he can join the squad and then infiltrate. Page 39. Read it. By saying his rules in the FAQ allow is to ignore what that rule says. A unit he joins before deployment gets infiltrate. You are inferring that this allows him to join a unit before deployment, but unfortunately, by the book, he can't.

I'm sorry if I like to play by the rules and you don't.

What is ironic about the whole arguement is that under 5th edition when Shrike could not join a unit and infiltrate, everyone came out of the woodwork against him being able to do so. Now that the rules have reverted from the post FAQ ruling that let him, everyone is all about breaking the rules and playing RAI.



.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lobukia wrote:8 to 1

KGatch, this is just silly. Have you actually ever seen someone fight this fight while standing across the table from an opponent? I'm just curious (and would love to hear the story if it happened). Is there a point to this stance, as in there is a RL problem at your club over this, or are we trying to define "the" just for the fun of it?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
and BTW, the FAQ quote, just gave him permission to join a squad before deployment in the eyes of every non-TFG. If someone pulled this at my club, they could either shut up or find the door.

If I were running an event, and a player tried to infiltrate Shrike and his opponent objected, I would be correct in siding with his opponent. If you fudge the rules here and there, what is the point in having them????

If you let someone violate this rule, then is it ok to let someone play with a list that is 10 points over? Don't be TFG, let him play with the extra points!!!! Is it ok for someone to show up with a mix of axes, swords and mauls and have some of them count as power fists and some count as power lances? Sure, don't be TFG.

I run RG and my whole list has neen nerfed by 6th edition. I want to play the army, such as it is, legally and by the rules. If someone could find a piece of text in the rules that, without having to refer to add a statement such as, GW surely meant for, or they would not have given him the rule if they didn't mean for.., would allow you to add a character to a unit in another way, then fine. So far no one has.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:

Kreedos wrote:

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh

"One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid argument."

Speaking of which, I did not insult you personally, but you have insulted us, simply because no one that has posted agrees with your statements or rule interpretation. Also 2 v 1 is a majority, interpretation or language spoken doesn't change this fact, it is a constant. Out of frustration, you turn to insults. You should give the forum rules a read and learn how to correctly interpret those rules as well as the ones in the BRB for sake of future posts. Since you aren't getting the only answer you want to hear, I suggest other outlets for your rule debate.

I was not making an insult, but stating a fact.

The only fact I see here is that you're not getting your way, so you're going to be rude and consistently say that everyone else is wrong, even when not a single person has agreed you are correct in your twisted rules argument. Like an above poster said, the game is about having fun, it sounds like you're trying to break the game for another player, which in that case, I don't understand why he'd ever want to play with you. I really think it's time you hit the high road, and e-mail GW, you're trying to exploit a technicality which creates a loop hole in the rules. Like many other posters have said, there is a duality to your argument. If you were correct, no IC would be able to join a squad in a transport, like many others have posted, and you wouldn't be able to so something like, infiltrating with an IC in a transport, because you state a IC doesn't join a unit till it hits the table, even though it says under infiltrate rules that infiltrating in a vehicle is possible. Your assessment breaks the rules in many ways, if you have such a problem with it, refer to page 4 under the heading "The most important rule." Which would require you to roll off in a disagreement, since it is the most important rule, it trumps any other rules and or disagreements you have. Either way, no one has agreed with you, you're wrong in many situations including poor sportsmanship, and you keep insisting you're correct, even when you've been presented multiple different ways in which you aren't. This happens multiple times in Dakka debates when a user insists they're correct, when faced with a majority ruling that they're not. You're being intentionally thick, and very stubborn, and you aren't going to get the answer you want to hear, so I don't understand why you're continuing this debate, which is clearly one sided. After this post I'm done with this thread, you've got your answer, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean you should be stubborn and not admit that you could possibly be wrong. Just to be clear, the majority is now 7 to 1, and we all have a firm grasp of the English language.

Unfortunately, you have to play the game by the rules. I play RG, and I want to be able to infiltrate Shrike and a unit, but I also want to play by the rules. So far, everyone in this thread has incorrectly interpreted how you join an IC, so I must conclude they have a reading problem. I have patiently explained the proper way to deploy an IC, or and IC in a vehicle many times.

I'm going to quote you:

If you were correct, no IC would be able to join a squad in a transport, like many others have posted, and you wouldn't be able to so something like, infiltrating with an IC in a transport, because you state a IC doesn't join a unit till it hits the table, even though it says under infiltrate rules that infiltrating in a vehicle is possible.

And once again, you are wrong. An IC without the infiltrate rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment, so no, he can't join that squad in a transport that is infiltrating anyway.

If you read my signature, you'd see I've won at least 12 Best Sportsmen awards. People always have fun playing me, and I always allow them as much latitude as possible. But you still have to play by the rules.

KGatch113 wrote:

Shrike is not being held back without cause. He is being held back to infiltrate. With the squad he joined before he was, how did you say it...placed on the table.
So, your interpretation is that there are only two ways to join a unit at the start of a game: to deploy within 2" of the unit or to be placed in reserve together. This breaks other rules though so try to follow along. I will try to go slow so you can keep up. (This is not an insult it is a fact. Because I said it is so it must be true) In this logical deduction we have 2 premises. A DT can only hold the squad that purchased it when it is placed on the table, (premise 1) and an IC is not able to join a unit before they are actually placed on the table, unless they are being placed in reserves (premise 2). Neither of these premises are in conflict with what you have previously stated. If they are true then we can deduce that an IC cannot deploy in the DT since he had to have joined the unit before being placed on the table to be part of the unit that bought the DT. This is, however, in direct conflict with the rule that says that an IC can deploy in a DT with the unit. Therefore there must be more than 2 ways for an IC to join a unit, and since it is clear that an IC can join a unit before it deploys then the codex stating that Shrike gives his squad infiltrate can happen before deployment.

I'll go slowly for you.

Page 39 of the rules details how you join an IC to a squad. It is not my interpretation, it is how you do it, by the book. You either place the model on the table in coherency, or you put him in reserves. You can not join a unit any other way, by the book.

As for joining an IC to a unit in a dedicated transport, well, first this has no bearing on the issue at hand, but the proper way to do it is to put the DT on the table, say the squad is in there, and then say the IC is joining that squad located in the vehicle. This satisfies the rules on page 39. Can you easily say I'm joining the IC to the squad and putting them in the DT on the table? Yes, because it achieves the legal result, even though you did it in the wrong order. You can not do so with Shrike, because it violates the rules on page 39.

So now you have Shrike. And again, as I have stated time and time again, there are no rules in the rulebook that say he can join the squad and then infiltrate. Page 39. Read it. By saying his rules in the FAQ allow is to ignore what that rule says. A unit he joins before deployment gets infiltrate. You are inferring that this allows him to join a unit before deployment, but unfortunately, by the book, he can't.

I'm sorry if I like to play by the rules and you don't.

What is ironic about the whole arguement is that under 5th edition when Shrike could not join a unit and infiltrate, everyone came out of the woodwork against him being able to do so. Now that the rules have reverted from the post FAQ ruling that let him, everyone is all about breaking the rules and playing RAI.

Wait, you went to fast. I lost you because your superior intellect is just astounding. All joking aside you are ignoring two key points that you apparently refuse to accept, so I will try to be as plain as I can be. I will even not point out the many logical fallacies with your argument so that you don't get distracted by shiny things and can't avoid what I have to say.

1. Codex supersedes rulebook. This is noted on page 7. Look it up. So, in this case the rulebook appears to be in conflict with the codex so the codex wins. Yes it ignores what the rule says which is, when you look at the rules as a whole and not with a narrow point of view to make yourself feel better, following the rules. Note it says that the codex "always takes precedence." Always, not sometimes or when it is convenient to you, but always. I know this is hard to swallow but try to swallow it. Sometimes you have to ignore a rule to follow the rules.

2. Page 121 says "However, if a unit is a Dedicated Transport, only the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit) can deploy within it." That is right, the rule specifically says that the IC has joined the unit before it was deployed. Your explanation is not valid since the rules specifically state that the IC joined the unit before the transport deployed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KGatch113 wrote:If you read my signature, you'd see I've won at least 12 Best Sportsmen awards. People always have fun playing me, and I always allow them as much latitude as possible. But you still have to play by the rules.

Actions speak louder than words on the internets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KGatch113 wrote:And once again, you are wrong. An IC without the infiltrate rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment, so no, he can't join that squad in a transport that is infiltrating anyway.

And why is that? What rule prevents this from happening?

Right, codex supersedes rulebook.Again, read the language. A unit that Shrike has joined BEFORE deployment...The only way he can join a unit before it is deployedis.at the most,when you put a unit in reserves, add Shrike, then it can outflank from reserves. I would argue no, because when you put the unit in reserves you need to declare you are outflanking the unit and until Shrike has joined it, they can't. But nothing in the rule allows it to Infiltrate. I refer you to page 39.

Page 121, which keeps being brought up, is a specific instance, and as I have stated, when you announce you are going to deploy the transport, you then announce the IC will be with it. This is the same as deploying the figure in coherency on the table. It does not indicate you have joined the unit, character and transport before deployment.

Page 38: An IC without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

All they had to do is word the FAQ: Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant it the Infiltrate skill....


For all we know, GW only intends Shrike to outflank and not be able to infiltrate, and hence the wording as it is.

Codex beats BRB every time unless a FAQ directly comes from GWs. Doesn't matter what deployment means. Strike gets to pick any squad to join and give them infiltrate.

Hate it if you must but dems the rulz.

Yeah, I'm done. Now you are just reviewing the same tired arguments over again and not even making an effort, except now you are contradicting yourself as well. So, you are either a troll or epically stupid. Either way, good luck with those tantrums.

RAW, Shrike doesn't work. But we can infer how it is supposed to work and determine from that how to actually play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:Yeah, I'm done. Now you are just reviewing the same tired arguments over again and not even making an effort, except now you are contradicting yourself as well. So, you are either a troll or epically stupid. Either way, good luck with those tantrums.

Actually, he's a former GW employeee who is probably as pissed as I am about their continued inability to properly write the rules........................

RAW works perfectly.

Codex breaks BRB. Not sure how RAW is wrong.

KGatch113 wrote:Right, codex supersedes rulebook.Again, read the language. A unit that Shrike has joined BEFORE deployment...The only way he can join a unit before it is deployedis.at the most,when you put a unit in reserves, add Shrike, then it can outflank from reserves. I would argue no, because when you put the unit in reserves you need to declare you are outflanking the unit and until Shrike has joined it, they can't. But nothing in the rule allows it to Infiltrate. I refer you to page 39.

Page 121, which keeps being brought up, is a specific instance, and as I have stated, when you announce you are going to deploy the transport, you then announce the IC will be with it. This is the same as deploying the figure in coherency on the table. It does not indicate you have joined the unit, character and transport before deployment.

Page 38: An IC without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

All they had to do is word the FAQ: Shrike can join a unit before deployment and grant it the Infiltrate skill....


For all we know, GW only intends Shrike to outflank and not be able to infiltrate, and hence the wording as it is.

I plan to still use him as normal, you are down 12-to-1 in this thread alone, sometimes you just gotta take it on the chin son.
In life, not everything is black and white, more often then not we run into shades of grey, this is one of them. I don't need to quote the same tired rules 10x more, I just have to say, majority wins.

Thanks
Dan

don_mondo wrote:RAW, Shrike doesn't work. But we can infer how it is supposed to work and determine from that how to actually play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:Yeah, I'm done. Now you are just reviewing the same tired arguments over again and not even making an effort, except now you are contradicting yourself as well. So, you are either a troll or epically stupid. Either way, good luck with those tantrums.

Actually, he's a former GW employeee who is probably as pissed as I am about their continued inability to properly write the rules........................

Yeah, I am not exactly happy about the ambiguity of some of the rules. But refusing to listen to common sense and being generally annoying is not the appropriate response. Its not our fault they can't be more clear, why do we have to listen to the tantrum about it?

It's perfectly clear. Codex's break BRB.

Reading the rule from the Codex is very clear. 1 unit and it gets infiltrate. Who would argue this point?

The codex clearly gives this Character a pre-deployment option that no one else gets. He is called a Special Character for a reason.

MJThurston wrote:It's perfectly clear. Codex's break BRB.

Reading the rule from the Codex is very clear. 1 unit and it gets infiltrate. Who would argue this point?

The codex clearly gives this Character a pre-deployment option that no one else gets. He is called a Special Character for a reason.

Although I agree with your conclusion the point is that the wording for IC starting the game as a part of a unit is ridiculous. In one spot it states there are only two options to have an IC start the game in a unit, then spends the rest of the rulebook giving other examples of how to do it without deference given to the first statement. Either there are truly only two ways to do it or the rule is poorly written.

There is only two ways to do it in the BRB. There is a third when it comes to Codex's. As the BRB says, when a Codex contradicts the BRB, the Codex wins.

Again, lol. In 5th edition everyone supported the rules when it did not allow Shrike to infiltrate.

Noweveryone is going RAI and saying he can, and not to play RAW.

Thanks for the support Don.

KGatch113 wrote:Again, lol. In 5th edition everyone supported the rules when it did not allow Shrike to infiltrate.

Not everyone. In 5th edition, the rule was that "Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

This was taken by many to mean that you had to first deploy the unit, then deploy the character in coherency with the unit, making them then joined at the beginning of the game.

This was FAQed that,

5th Edition Main Rule FAQ wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

Now in 6th edition, we find that "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or...[reserved with it]".

The difference between the two rules is what?

So you join Shrike at the start of deployment before you place any models on the board. He gives his unit the infiltrate ability, and now the unit may be placed on the board at the infiltrate step if desired.

time wizard wrote:

KGatch113 wrote:Again, lol. In 5th edition everyone supported the rules when it did not allow Shrike to infiltrate.

Not everyone. In 5th edition, the rule was that "Alternatively, an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

This was taken by many to mean that you had to first deploy the unit, then deploy the character in coherency with the unit, making them then joined at the beginning of the game.

This was FAQed that,

5th Edition Main Rule FAQ wrote:Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

Now in 6th edition, we find that "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or...[reserved with it]".

The difference between the two rules is what?

So you join Shrike at the start of deployment before you place any models on the board. He gives his unit the infiltrate ability, and now the unit may be placed on the board at the infiltrate step if desired.

"by being deployed..". Past tense, meaning the unit and IC are put on the board, which means they cannot infiltrate.

KGatch113 wrote:"by being deployed..". Past tense, meaning the unit and IC are put on the board, which means they cannot infiltrate.

I can get to the store by riding the bus.

Past tense? I have to go to the store before I can ride the bus?

Or I can get in the bus first (joining the bus) and then go to the store (deploy into the store).

So before deploying, I can join another unit, and since I am now a part of that unit, I must of course deploy in coherency with them.

Means I can't deploy with them and immediately leave them.

Is this conflict an issue of timing? I'm no rules expert but doesn't 6E specify that all of a player's forces deploy simultaneously? If I'm deploying Shrike simultaneously as the unit he's "joining" then aren't they deploying together, and therefore eligible to deploy as infiltrators?

The supposition that this doesn't work seems to be dependent on the assumption that he deploys AFTER the unit he is joining, and not "with" it.

The OP thanked a poster for his support when that poster was siding against him. I think that sums this all up pretty nicely.

RAW is great when RAW is clear and makes sense within the context of the game. But sometimes people get way too carried away with it.

Other things that are RAW: Golden rule is to have fun, rulebook is meant as guidelines not to be treated as final word, Codex supercedes BRB

If you've been to so many tournaments, surely you've noticed that tournaments have to construct their own rulings on specific issues because Games Workshop & RAW are often vague and contradictory?

I totally agree Shrike can join a unit and inflitrate with that unit. As to saying there are only two ways to join a IC to a unit, ,what is a USR again? unique.....

And as to saying by the book why would GW include Shrike in a FAQ with a rule that cannot be used by your understanding?

I think you are fighting a losing battle here KGatch113

MarkyMark wrote:I totally agree Shrike can join a unit and inflitrate with that unit. As to saying there are only two ways to join a IC to a unit, ,what is a USR again? unique.....

Technically, there are no "USRs" in 6th edition. They are just special rules. HOwever in 5th ed, when the did have USRs, it was not unique. It was universal.

Agreed on how other rules infer that ICs can join units before deploying on the table during deployment.