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Just a quick history of Shrike and infiltrate...

Shrike's has the ability to give a unit he has joined the Infiltrate USR.

In 5th edition, the rules made it clear that the only way to join a unit were to be deployed within 2 inches of a unit on the table, or to join it in reserves.

Though everyone recognized the intent for Shrike and his unit to infiltrate, RAW he could not for the above reasons. This was eventually FAQ'd so that you could join a unit before being placed on the table.

Now we come to 6th edition. Once again, the rules state that you join a unit by being deployed with it on the table, or joining it in reserves. Page 39.

Shrike's rule has been FAQ'd to read....<shrike> and any models in a unit he has joined before deployment.....so since nowhere in the rules does it say you can join a unit outside of reserves or being placed on the table, once again we've returned to the days of when Shrike can only infiltrate with a unit that has infiltrate.

If someone can cite for me where in the rules it says you can be joined to a unit before deployment, I'd love to see it.

You could always point out that

Specific > Vague
Codex > Rulebook

It's obvious how it's meant to be played, technically it is RAI and not RAW, but you could use the argument like I said above, that Codex supersedes rulebook.

A Stronger argument with application to RAW is as follows;

Also, in the Independent Character rules on pg 34 it states

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."

It specifically says in Shrike's rules on pg 92 that,

"Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from infiltrate special rule."

Since it specifically states that models in his squad gain it as well,so they both would end up benefiting from the USR.

Right, but there are only 2 ways to join a unit. By deploying with them on the table, or by joining them in reserves.

KGatch113 wrote:

Right, but there are only 2 ways to join a unit. By deploying with them on the table, or by joining them in reserves.

Shrike's rule simply states that he and his unit gain infiltrate, it doesn't state that this happens upon deployment.

This would allow him and his unit to have infiltrate special rule, before they would be placed upon the table, thus allowing them to infiltrate upon deployment because infiltration would be their deployment type. Thus, Shrike and his unit have infiltrate when they're deployed, and infiltrate is a type of deployment, thus Shrike and his squad can infiltrate upon deployment.

I think you're making this more complicated for yourself than it actually is. Even if it's a little confusing, I doubt anyone would fight you on this, or a tournament organizer would declare it a breach of rules.

In the SM FAQ he gives the squad Infiltrate to a unit he joins before deployment.

You can't join an IC to a unit before deployment, therefore, he can't grant the skill to anyone.

Acctually you can, before deploying you may specify that a unit is joined by an IC for, say the purposes of deploying embarked on their transport, being placed in reserve together with a unit. If your thesis was true then all IC's would have to be deployed outside transports and move into them in their first movement phase and so on. This is not the case. Further more; the SM FAQ gives specific permission to join a unit before deployment so the argument in this specific case is void and null anyway.

The SM faq still gives him permission to join models before deployment.

From FAQ

(and any models in a unit that he has joined before deployment)...

This infers he is still allowed to join a unit before deployment.

Specific > Vague
Codex+FAQ > Rulebook

The real problem is that Shrike cannot assault 1st turn when infiltrating, and with how fleet changed you cannot close the over 18" you must deploy away reliably.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:Acctually you can, before deploying you may specify that a unit is joined by an IC for, say the purposes of deploying embarked on their transport, being placed in reserve together with a unit. If your thesis was true then all IC's would have to be deployed outside transports and move into them in their first movement phase and so on. This is not the case. Further more; the SM FAQ gives specific permission to join a unit before deployment so the argument in this specific case is void and null anyway.

You do all of that during the deployment phase. And where in the SM FAQ does it give specific permission to join a unit before deployment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:The SM faq still gives him permission to join models before deployment.

From FAQ

(and any models in a unit that he has joined before deployment)...

This infers he is still allowed to join a unit before deployment.

Specific > Vague
Codex+FAQ > Rulebook

That is not permission. If they had said Shrike may join a unit before deployment....but they don't.

Alright, you want to play? Let's Play.

First off you can start with referencing the rule(s) that prohibits IC's to join units before said unit has been placed on the table.

Secondly: BRB, pg.121: "Units /.../ Only the unit selected with (Plus any Independent Characters that has joined the unit) can deploy with it. /.../"
BRB pg. 39: "An Independent Character may begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined"

This gives the following: 1: Choose a unit -> 2: attach IC to unit (if any) -> 3: embark on transport (if any) -> 4: Deploy.

Thus the unit will benefit from the IC's special rule at step 2 (BRB pg. 39) wich means that if the player wiches to utilize the Infiltrate rule (as per this case) the unit may after this be bumped back to reserve in order to Outflank or halt it's deployment as per the Infiltrate USR (BRB pg. 38)

There is no phase between deployment and infiltrate, as soon as your models are being placed, they are being deployed, thus giving his squad infiltrate before he hits the board, and not after. Infiltrate is a type of deployment thus while he's being deployed, his squad gains infiltrate.

However, think you're beating a bit of a dead horse with this one. I don't believe the majority sees a problem with this. However, if you still see an issue even with the majority disagreeing, you could shoot a PM to Yakface who owns the board and helps create the FAQs, and or e-mail GW for a more official ruling.

Beating it? It's being mutilated with a chainsaw but somehow the horse insists it is not dead.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:Alright, you want to play? Let's Play.

First off you can start with referencing the rule(s) that prohibits IC's to join units before said unit has been placed on the table.

Secondly: BRB, pg.121: "Units /.../ Only the unit selected with (Plus any Independent Characters that has joined the unit) can deploy with it. /.../"
BRB pg. 39: "An Independent Character may begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined"

This gives the following: 1: Choose a unit -> 2: attach IC to unit (if any) -> 3: embark on transport (if any) -> 4: Deploy.

Thus the unit will benefit from the IC's special rule at step 2 (BRB pg. 39) wich means that if the player wiches to utilize the Infiltrate rule (as per this case) the unit may after this be bumped back to reserve in order to Outflank or halt it's deployment as per the Infiltrate USR (BRB pg. 38)

Shrike's rule says he gives infiltrate to the unit he joined BEFORE deployment. As shown in your quotes above, you only join an IC to a unit DURING deployment. Your 1,2 ,3 ,4 sequence is in correct based on page 39.You join an IC to a unit in a transport during the deployment phase as well. You announce, as you put down the vehicle, that the IC is in the vehicle with the unit.

Please quote a line that is not an inference that allows an IC to be joined to a unit BEFORE deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kreedos wrote:There is no phase between deployment and infiltrate, as soon as your models are being placed, they are being deployed, thus giving his squad infiltrate before he hits the board, and not after. Infiltrate is a type of deployment.

However, think you're beating a bit of a dead horse with this one. I don't believe the majority sees a problem with this. However, if you still see an issue even with the majority disagreeing, you could shoot a PM to Yakface who owns the board and helps create the FAQs, and or e-mail GW for a more official ruling.

One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid arguement.

One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid arguement.

Seeing as no one is agreeing with you, and your statement would break deployment rules entirely, I'm thinking it's you that doesn't have a valid argument. You are twisting RAW ruling to make it fit, when it doesn't. Like I said above, if you really think there's an issue, I'd suggest you e-mail GW and PM Yakface for a more official ruling. If you still aren't convinced, I don't know what else to say besides you can house rule it if you're dissatisfied. There's plenty of rules that break the game if played by RAW alone, and there are many threads that show how ridiculous RAW can be if played exactly to the letter. In fact, a lot of the game is broken if played entirely by RAW, and thus unplayable.

Kreedos wrote:

One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid arguement.

Seeing as no one is agreeing with you, and your statement would break deployment rules entirely, I'm thinking it's you that doesn't have a valid argument. You are twisting RAW ruling to make it fit, when it doesn't. Like I said above, if you really think there's an issue, I'd suggest you e-mail GW and PM Yakface for a more official ruling. If you still aren't convinced, I don't know what else to say besides you can house rule it if you're dissatisfied. There's plenty of rules that break the game if played by RAW alone, and there are many threads that show how ridiculous RAW can be if played exactly to the letter. In fact, a lot of the game is broken if played entirely by RAW, and thus unplayable.

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh. You're arguments are inferences and intention based, not based on RAW. Nothing you have presented shows that you can join a unit by any other means then putting the model in reserve, or announcing it is in a transport with a squad or actual placement on the table.

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh

"One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid argument."

Speaking of which, I did not insult you personally, but you have insulted us, simply because no one that has posted agrees with your statements or rule interpretation. Also 2 v 1 is a majority, interpretation or language spoken doesn't change this fact, it is a constant. Out of frustration, you turn to insults. You should give the forum rules a read and learn how to correctly interpret those rules as well as the ones in the BRB for sake of future posts. Since you aren't getting the only answer you want to hear, I suggest other outlets for your rule debate.

As shown in your quotes above, you only join an IC to a unit DURING deployment.

Your problem stems from that you have interpretated the meaning of ''Deployment'' in a faulty manner.

Deployment refers to the entire phase where models ar sorted, grouped and placed on the battlefield or in reserves. 'Before Deployment' as you obsess about, is when you set up terrain and place objectives. As far as the rules are concerned the players armies does not exist as part of the game until this has been resolved and Deployment starts.
Shrikes rule says indeed that he gives the rule before deployment but this does not refer to 'before the deployment phase' but to 'before the Deploy Forces' step of Deployment.

This is a tough one. Why would GW add something to an FAQ that is directly in conflict with the rules. There must, therefore, be at least one situation where this can happen. There is the first obvious interpretation the OP stated, that he joins another unit that can infiltrate already, but that makes no sense since what is the point of allowing a unit to infiltrate if they already can? Not to mention the only unit in the C:SM who can infiltrate are Scouts and please don't imply that Shrike should roll with Scouts...

Next you have the next reasonable interpretation that a Command Squad could infiltrate with him. But seeing as how a Command Squad is not a retinue, in fact the errata specifically changes the wording from a Command squad being a retinue to an extra HQ unit, so again Shrike doesn't start in their squad automatically. But a Command Squad is his squad, they are his boys. Is GW really saying I can't join a captain with his Command Squad?

As was previously mentioned BRB pg. 121 states that a unit and any IC that joined that unit can deploy in the transport, but this is in direct conflict with page 39 that says an IC cannot join a unit until they deploy in coherency. So we are stuck, right? Wrong. We look at what the rule used to say, which was Shrike and models in his squad, which now says Shrike and any unit he joined before deployment. Since it is unlikely that GW would directly contradict themselves it is more likely that there are two definitions of "joined".

Also in the C:SM faq someone asks about which Chapter Tactics the army takes and when that is declared. GW said it must be declared on the army list. This is relevant because it establishes a trend that adding things to the list is important. It us therefore my interpretation that IC are "joined" when making your list, thus allowing them to deploy in a dedicated transport with their unit, and if not specifically stated on the list when they deploy on the table.

Kreedos wrote:

2 people who don't seem to have a grasp of the English language and how to interpret rules does not a majority maketh

"One resorts to ad hominem attacks when one does not have a valid argument."

Speaking of which, I did not insult you personally, but you have insulted us, simply because no one that has posted agrees with your statements or rule interpretation. Also 2 v 1 is a majority, interpretation or language spoken doesn't change this fact, it is a constant. Out of frustration, you turn to insults. You should give the forum rules a read and learn how to correctly interpret those rules as well as the ones in the BRB for sake of future posts. Since you aren't getting the only answer you want to hear, I suggest other outlets for your rule debate.

I was not making an insult, but stating a fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

STC_LogisEngine wrote:

As shown in your quotes above, you only join an IC to a unit DURING deployment.

Your problem stems from that you have interpretated the meaning of ''Deployment'' in a faulty manner.

Deployment refers to the entire phase where models ar sorted, grouped and placed on the battlefield or in reserves. 'Before Deployment' as you obsess about, is when you set up terrain and place objectives. As far as the rules are concerned the players armies does not exist as part of the game until this has been resolved and Deployment starts.
Shrikes rule says indeed that he gives the rule before deployment but this does not refer to 'before the deployment phase' but to 'before the Deploy Forces' step of Deployment.

Right. Deployment is when you....get this...hold on....place the models on the table, or put them in reserves. You show the model has joined the squad by placement on the table, either actually, or figuratively in the case of a vehicle or in reserves.

There are no provision in the rules to join a unit that can not be held back without cause. Shrike can not be joined to a unit off the table and not held in reserves. You have presented no evidence to support that or contradict me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:
Next you have the next reasonable interpretation that a Command Squad could infiltrate with him. But seeing as how a Command Squad is not a retinue, in fact the errata specifically changes the wording from a Command squad being a retinue to an extra HQ unit, so again Shrike doesn't start in their squad automatically. But a Command Squad is his squad, they are his boys. Is GW really saying I can't join a captain with his Command Squad?

As was previously mentioned BRB pg. 121 states that a unit and any IC that joined that unit can deploy in the transport, but this is in direct conflict with page 39 that says an IC cannot join a unit until they deploy in coherency. So we are stuck, right? Wrong. We look at what the rule used to say, which was Shrike and models in his squad, which now says Shrike and any unit he joined before deployment. Since it is unlikely that GW would directly contradict themselves it is more likely that there are two definitions of "joined".

Also in the C:SM faq someone asks about which Chapter Tactics the army takes and when that is declared. GW said it must be declared on the army list. This is relevant because it establishes a trend that adding things to the list is important. It us therefore my interpretation that IC are "joined" when making your list, thus allowing them to deploy in a dedicated transport with their unit, and if not specifically stated on the list when they deploy on the table.

Except that Shrike can join any unit, and this is supposed to be done when deployment occurs, not when the list is made up.

I believe page 7 of the BRB will settle this under the section "Basic versus Advanced" last paragraph.

It states:
On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence.

The FAQ is a correction to the Codex and thus overrides the BRB.

Hence Shriike can join a unit before deployment.

But that is not what his rule says. It says he gives infiltrate to a unit he joins before deployment, not that shrike can join a unit before deployment.

Again, and now we are beating a dead horse, there are only 2 ways, count them...2 ways to join an IC to a unit. Putting him with the unit on the table, and putting him with a unit in reserves.

At the most, he will allow a squad to outflank, but even that is iffy.

GW's inability to make Shrike's Infiltrate ability work is not new. They haven't fixed it once since introducing the rule in 4th ed. IIRC the 5th faq cleared it up for the super rules lawyers, but the fact remains, as written, ( and now FAQ'd) it does not now, and has never, worked. I've never seen a player in person who wouldn't let a SM player infiltrate Shrike with whatever squad he wants, nor do I expect to in the future while this rule is in existence.

STC_LogisEngine wrote:Alright, you want to play? Let's Play.

First off you can start with referencing the rule(s) that prohibits IC's to join units before said unit has been placed on the table.

Secondly: BRB, pg.121: "Units /.../ Only the unit selected with (Plus any Independent Characters that has joined the unit) can deploy with it. /.../"
BRB pg. 39: "An Independent Character may begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined"

This gives the following: 1: Choose a unit -> 2: attach IC to unit (if any) -> 3: embark on transport (if any) -> 4: Deploy.

Thus the unit will benefit from the IC's special rule at step 2 (BRB pg. 39) wich means that if the player wiches to utilize the Infiltrate rule (as per this case) the unit may after this be bumped back to reserve in order to Outflank or halt it's deployment as per the Infiltrate USR (BRB pg. 38)

I think the correct interpretation is how LogisEngine has presented it... Seems pretty cut and dried to me... I throw my hat to the majority...

He ignored everything page 39 said.

My thought is that they reworded it so that he can join a battle brother ally unit and give them infiltrate.

Also, on can read that as "and any models in a unit that he has joined before deployment (is over)" So not necessarily before the deployment phase, but before the deployment phase is over.

Also, if anyone gives you a hard time, or you're giving someone else a hard time, remember the golden rule. Have fun, rules are guidelines.

Hmm, I think the reference he cited on p121 shows (by RAW and common English usage) that IC can join a unit prior to its deployment.

I see your point about p39 (in its entirety), but p121 clearly indicates, by the way it is written, that an IC can be already attached to a unit (and thus conferring the Infiltrate USR) when it deploys.

Page 121 is referring to vehicles and that an IC and unit can deploy with it, at the time the vehicle is put down on the table or in reserves.

Granted that it is about Dedicated Transports, but the IC isn't joining the vehicle, he is joining the squad the vehicle was bought by...

So he is technically on the table, you just can't fit the figures in the vehicle...

KGatch113 wrote:

So he is technically on the table, you just can't fit the figures in the vehicle...

Also read the Ded. Transport box on page 78. It also says that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit that bought it plus any ICs that have joined it. So how could an IC be deployed with it if it can't join prior to deployment?


edit- my spelling sucks...