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time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The battlement is a part of the fortification, thus it grants whatever cover the fortification grants.

Page 95, look at the battlement section, "Many buildings have flat roofs that can accomodate units - we refer to these as battlements."

So take a wooden outpost (page 92 (q.v.)). It has an AV of 10. It also has a flat roof. That roof is referred to as a battlement.

What cover save do your models on the roof get?

There is no cover classification of wooden outposts on page 18, so I guess they get none. But if they're obscured, they get the cover save of the building (according to you) but the building gives none. See the problem?

I see no issue.
"Types or Cover Saves"
The fype of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind. For example, a soft obstacle (like a bloodthorn hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers a 5+ cover save. Purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ cover save and most other things confer a4+ or 5+ cover save."P.18

So the wooden building would give either a 4+ or a 5+ as it is not a hedge, or a fortification.

time wizard wrote:The battlement does not give the same cover save as the building, be it a wooden outpost, a bastion, a brick house or a bunker.

Page 95 clearly states that models on the battlement "...have to rely on their armour (and any cover save from the battlement walls) for protection."

Nowhere does it state that models on a battlement get any cover save contingent on the type of building the battlement is on.

It says a fortification confers a 3+ cover. a Bastion is a fortification so all parts of that bastion confer a 3+ cover.

time wizard wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Models on battlements get a 3+ cover save too, because Battlements are Fortifications.

Battlements are not fortifications, they are flat roofs! The distinction is made in the rules and is very important.

They are roofs and walls that are a part of the Bastion.

Remember you can not put terrain within 3 inches of each other, so that piece must all be a fortification by default (Though you are free to classify it otherwise).

Not really sure I see the issue here. The BRB states that players should agree what type of cover each terrain piece will offer. PG 18.

Barricades and Walls are described as "hastily assembled obstacles or the remains of once proud strcutures". I personnaly do not see this as being applicable to a Bastion or F.o.R. But if you are playing someone and both are happy with a 4+ save then, again, there are no issues.

The only reference to fortifications in the BRB are those you can buy for points. Now, you do not under any circumstances get a cover save if you suffer a wound while occupying the building. As all glancing and penertrating hits are treated as having the "Ignore cover" special rule. PG 93.

As the BRB does not explicitly define what a fortification is, we need to use our common sense and Google-fu. Google defines fortification as a defensive wall or reinforcement to protect a place agaisnt attack. So lets get away from the notion it can only be a fortification if it has a roof or is made of some tough, heavy material. If I found a ruin and put up a crap load of sand bags and barriers it would become fortified and thus described as a fortification.

Now we have established what a fortificaiton is we can move forward with figuring out what type of save a certain type of wall/fortification should offer. As a Bastion is purpose built to defend an area from attack I would strongly suggest it grants a 3+ cover save to all models occupying its battlements, assuming it has been modeled appropriately (e.g. Built as supplied by GW). With the reasoning detailed above.

But at the end of the day both parties should agree before the game starts what type of cover save is offered by all forms of terrain, both those bough for points and those that are provided as part of the battlefield. Unfortunately whilst the latter benifits neither party directly the former can make a difference to one of the players.

DeathReaper wrote:
I see no issue.
"Types or Cover Saves"
The fype of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind. For example, a soft obstacle (like a bloodthorn hedge) that would hide soldiers behind it, but would not even slow down enemy shots, confers a 5+ cover save. Purpose-built fortifications confer a 3+ cover save and most other things confer a4+ or 5+ cover save."P.18

So the wooden building would give either a 4+ or a 5+ as it is not a hedge, or a fortification.

All that section gives is types of cover saves. That's why it is called that. It is the general rule about cover saves. It even says that further examples can be found in the Battlefield Terrain section.

time wizard wrote:The battlement does not give the same cover save as the building, be it a wooden outpost, a bastion, a brick house or a bunker.

Page 95 clearly states that models on the battlement "...have to rely on their armour (and any cover save from the battlement walls) for protection."

Nowhere does it state that models on a battlement get any cover save contingent on the type of building the battlement is on.

DeathReaper wrote: It says a fortification confers a 3+ cover. a Bastion is a fortification so all parts of that bastion confer a 3+ cover.

And an Aegis Defence line is also a fortification. So do you get a 3+ cover save from it too? According to you, you do.
But the rules disagree with you.

time wizard wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Models on battlements get a 3+ cover save too, because Battlements are Fortifications.

Battlements are not fortifications, they are flat roofs! The distinction is made in the rules and is very important.

DeathReaper wrote: They are roofs and walls that are a part of the Bastion.

Show me where on page 95 that it says walls are battlements.
Yes, battlements can be part of bastions. They can also be a part of a bunker, a palace, a city building, a hab-block, a brick house, a wooden outpost, a corrugated iron shed, a wooden shed, in fact a battlement can be a part of any building. Page 95 even says that. Battlements make a building a multiple part building. But nowhere in that rule does it state that a battlement derives its cover save from the building.

DeathReaper wrote: Remember you can not put terrain within 3 inches of each other, so that piece must all be a fortification by default (Though you are free to classify it otherwise).

The bastion is in the Fortification section. That does not make it a fortification. You even quoted that page 18 describes types of terrain.
Lets look at the 4 "fortifications" found in that section, pages 114-117.

Aegis Defence Lines - terrain type - fortification? Nope, Battlefield Debris (Defence lines).
Skyshield Landing Pad - terrain type - fortification? Nope, Unique.
Imperial Bastion - terrain type - fortification? Nope, medium building
Fortress of Redemption - terrain type - fortification? Nope small and medium buildings.

None of these "fortifications" are defined as such under the terrain type, so the chart on page 18 does not apply in this case.

And a battlment is not a separate piece of terrain, it is the roof of a building. But there are different rules regarding models in the building and models on the building.
I can't help you if you can't grasp the difference.

time wizard wrote:

DeathReaper wrote: It says a fortification confers a 3+ cover. a Bastion is a fortification so all parts of that bastion confer a 3+ cover.

And an Aegis Defence line is also a fortification. So do you get a 3+ cover save from it too? According to you, you do.
But the rules disagree with you.

As I said before the Aegis has a specific exception on what cover it gives, without it, it would indeed give a 3+ cover.

Of course there are different rules regarding models in the building and models on the building. Units on a building can be shot at, models in a building can not be shot at.

The roof and battlements are still a part of said building however.

DeathReaper wrote:The roof and battlements are still a part of said building however.

The battlement is the roof. This is the difference.

And yes, it is a part of a building, with different rules for each part.

@Time Wizard

Let's look at your examples

We are told fortifications give us 3+

Forifications that don't, tell us different (Aegis and Pad). Fortifications that do, don't need to tell us.

Following their own rule of Specific > general, when a specific fortification did not warrent a 3+, they told us. However, when they wanted the general rule to apply, they didn't tell us anything (why would they need to, its already covered in General > no information).

(This is all using the blind assumption that anything the book tells us is a fortifications is what they were thinking of when they said fortification = +3, which apparently you think is an incredible feat of word twisting and rule lawyering).

...and before you fly off the handle, I am also making the crazy assumption that part of the building, counts as part of the building, ergo, follows the rules for the building.

Now, I do see your point that buildings =/= fortification, and I agree. But I don't see how you can say fortification =/= fortification, that's just plain ballsy on this forum.

As far as the Bastion in particular goes, is AV 14 (like a bunker), its elevated, it has excellent cover, and if anything meets the requirements for being a "fortification" (assuming somehow that fortification =/= fortification), it would. Especially since we are told a ruined bastion would give cover 4+... so a prestine one would be better... like, say 3+?

Buildings pages 92-94 armor and how you get hurt and damage.

95 - Battlements (mainly how to get there) but second paragraph was pointed to "will have to rely on their armor (and any cover save from the battlement walls").

Since we have to "discuss" what all cover is anyway they are saying on top of the "battlement" or "building" is it an open roof or has walls? What does it look like. It "looks like" a Aegis Defense line on a Bastion but you have to pay for that and it has a special rule so we can only assume "Fortification" a 3+ (page 18).

On the model you can choose to not add that cover (keeps those jump/jet pack boys from getting an advantage).

Remember: Where else would we get to use "Fortification"? In a pill box? No, it is a building so has an armor value.

Makes me feel better since I made the equivalent to a Fortress of Redemption out of Bastions (they look silly unless you are a Dark Angel).

I do not see anything unclear here.

Talizvar wrote:
I do not see anything unclear here.

"You cannot depend on your eyes when your brain is out of focus" Mark Twain

Good to know someone's brain is functioning correctly

Talizvar wrote:
Since we have to "discuss" what all cover is anyway they are saying on top of the "battlement" or "building" is it an open roof or has walls? What does it look like. It "looks like" a Aegis Defense line on a Bastion but you have to pay for that and it has a special rule so we can only assume "Fortification" a 3+ (page 18)

Exactly. It is entirely dependent on how the bastion battlements are modeled to look. If it looks like a fortification, is 3+. If it looks like tall grass, its 6+.

Dannyevilguy wrote:
Exactly. It is entirely dependent on how the bastion battlements are modeled to look. If it looks like a fortification, is 3+. If it looks like tall grass, its 6+.

Roof Gardens on a Bastion? That would be the Eldar version then...

They get a 3+ for the fortification if they are on the battlement provided they are 25% obscured.

Reason why?

Because if they just got a 4+ like any other wall they would not need to have the listing for fortification. They could just say that units embarked in the fortification you need a template weapon or pen the AV to hit.

Aegis lines are +4 as they are just a wall, but ones built to take cover behind.

If you are on the bastion you might not get your cover save from barrage weapons or flyers. In that case you just get your armor save.

Dannyevilguy wrote:Exactly. It is entirely dependent on how the bastion battlements are modeled to look. If it looks like a fortification, is 3+. If it looks like tall grass, its 6+.

Which is what I said several posts ago. This is a redundant discussion, unless people are going to be more specific. If the walls/barriers/whatever on top of a bastion/f.o.r/whatever are modeled to represent a fortified wall/barrier/whatever then it is a 3+.

Time Wizard you are offered cover saves based on they type of cover you are hiding behind/in. Buildings do not offer cover saves. A fortification is a type of cover. The two are completely seperate. The building can be completely ignored. You would be getting the same cover save if you were standing behind the fortification/wall/baricades/long grass if it were on the top of the building or it were on the ground.

WhoopieMonster wrote: If the walls/barriers/whatever on top of a bastion/f.o.r/whatever are modeled to represent a fortified wall/barrier/whatever then it is a 3+.

Time Wizard you are offered cover saves based on they type of cover you are hiding behind/in. Buildings do not offer cover saves. A fortification is a type of cover. The two are completely seperate. The building can be completely ignored. You would be getting the same cover save if you were standing behind the fortification/wall/baricades/long grass if it were on the top of the building or it were on the ground.

Which is what I have been saying all along as well. The fact that a wall is modeled on the battlement of a bastion does not, in and of itself, give a 3+ cover save.

There are a number of terrain pieces in the "Battlefield Debris" section. Not all of them are "debris" (like ridgelines, tank traps, trenches, walls).

There are 4 structures listed in the "Fortifications" section. They are there because you can select them with your army for the associated point cost.

Each one however, is of a defined "terrain type", and not a simgle one of them, not one, is defined as "Terrain Type: Fortification".

The walls on the battlement of a bastion may indeed confer a 3+ save, but they could just as easily only confer a 4+ save. It is up to how you and your opponent define it pre-game.

Fair enough. It was just one of your posts listing the fortification terrain types lead me to incorrectly believe you were suggesting you could not get a 3+ save from them as they were not defined as fortifications. I now realise that you were just providing evidence to counter other users arguments.

I'm in complete agreement with you.

Thanks! I was beginning to think I was going crazy!

time wizard wrote:
The walls on the battlement of a bastion may indeed confer a 3+ save, but they could just as easily only confer a 4+ save. It is up to how you and your opponent define it pre-game.

I think this is a pretty good summary of RAW.

So, I think this is a problem with the terrain rules.

Why would anyone who pays the points to bring that monstrosity "agree" to a 4+?
(assuming it wasn't just a friendly one-off game or whatever)

I can just imagine the argument from this thread being replayed at every tournament where someone wants to bring their own massive piece of terrain and call it all "fortification".

I'm supposed to agree to disagree and dice it off? So my opponent has a 50/50 shot of getting away with something stupid?

I guess TOs can make their own rulings, but that's just as arbitrary as the dice roll IMHO.

jcress410 wrote:

time wizard wrote:
The walls on the battlement of a bastion may indeed confer a 3+ save, but they could just as easily only confer a 4+ save. It is up to how you and your opponent define it pre-game.

I think this is a pretty good summary of RAW.

So, I think this is a problem with the terrain rules.

Why would anyone who pays the points to bring that monstrosity "agree" to a 4+?
(assuming it wasn't just a friendly one-off game or whatever)

My argument was that the walls would confer a 4+, but it could be agreed that they confer a 3+ if they were "fortified" walls.

As I said, a battlement is not a fortification, it's not even a building, it's the roof of a building.

The rule on page 95 says you could get a cover save from the battlement's walls.

There is only one reference to the cover saves walls give, and that's on page 104, and it's a 4+.

At this point, I'll just wait for the FAQ rather than attempt to argue this further.