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Units on the roof of a bastion can be fired upon, however, what is their cover save? Is it a fortification cover save of 3+? or something else?

It counts as a battlement, what is the cover save of that?

exactly what I was trying to find. page 95 covers battlements, and page 18 handles cover saves.

The Bastion is a fortification, so I was assuming it would be the same save as a fortification, however, I want to know for sure.

Battlements don't have a defined cover save (that I can find).

Since Fortifications have a 3+, I'd guess the models in cover on the roof of a Bastion (as well as vehicles obscured by the Bastion) would get a 3+ cover save. But I think this will really have to come down to agreement with your opponent before the beginning of the game.

I suppose since battlements are just part of the fortification that makes sense that a fortification save is what what you would get.

3+ for fortifications.

Fortress of redemption gives same 3+ cover save on its battlements as well.

Aegis defense line is a defense line so it gives 4+ with a 2+ if you go to ground.

Skyshield gives a 4+ invulnerable when closed, and no cover save when unfurled.

From the main rules page 95 under 'Battlements', second paragraph.

"...units on battlements can be shot at, and will have to rely on their armour (and any cover saves from the battlement walls) for protection."

And under 'Barricades and Walls' on page 104, walls give a basic 4+ cover save.

So on a battlement with walls, 4+ and on the roof of a bastion with no walls, no cover save.

p104 are rules for Battlefield Debris. Walls of a fortification or building are not Battlefield Debris, they are part of the building that they are attached to.

Buildings, which battlements are, do not have cover saves, they have AVs.

The passage I quoted tells you that in a battlement you get a cover save from the battlement's walls.

The cover saves for a wall is given on page 104.

The aegis defence line is listed on page 114, but that entry doesn't give any cover save for it.

Page 104 definse defence lines and says it follows the same rules for barricades and walls and gives the increase in cover saves.

That's what tells what the cover save for the aegis defence line is.

You need to look in 2 different places in the rules.

Bastions and fortresses of redemption are fortifications and thus give 3+ cover. Period.

Rule book clearly states 3+ save on battlements

Related question: Comm relay works in unit is within 2". If unit is in Bastion, would you say they are within 2" of relay? I say no, but a friend of mine had a good counter point. If you are occupying a structure, wouldn't another part of that structure have to count as within 2". I'm really not sure on this. Thoughts?

Considering you have to forfeit your entire movement to move to another section of the building, I don't think you are actually as close as you infer. That said, I could be entirely wrong.

Lobukia wrote:Rule book clearly states 3+ save on battlements

Page reference please?

Because the rule on page 95 that I referenced above clearly states, "...units on battlements can be shot at, and will have to rely on their armour (and any cover saves from the battlement walls) for protection." {emphasis mine}

I don't see where it states units on battlements get a 3+ cover save.

Page 18, BRB, 2nd column, Top of page:

Cover Type
Razor wire 6+
Forests and area terrain 5+
Ruins, ruined fortifications, and trenchs 4+
Fortifications 3+


A bastion and a F. o. R. are both fortifications. They qualify to grant 3+ cover. A ruined fortification (for example, a dilapidated one placed neutrally) would grant the 4+ you're inferring.

They are not the same.

A fortification grants a 3+ save for being in the fortification.

Look at page 95, the first paragraph on the left hand side under "Battlements".
One unit can be inside a building with a battlement since it is a mulitple part building, "...and a different unit can be 'on top' of it..."

A unit that is on a battlement is not in the building or fortification so therefore cannot benefit from a cover save that being inside grants.

So once again, the relevant rule is, "...units on battlements can be shot at, and will have to rely on their armour (and any cover saves from the battlement walls) for protection." {emphasis mine}

Read it carefully please, "units on battlements". These are not units that are inside buildings. There's a big difference.

Time wizard, stop being obtuse on purpose.

A unit INSIDE a fortification cannot be shot and cannot take cover saves from grenades or flamers that effect it, nor can take cover saves from wounds inflicted by glancing/penetrating the fortification. The cover save rule is clearly for the piece itself when models are on top of and behind it.

Again, stop trolling and just use common sense.

Excues me. I am not being obtuse and I am certainly not trolling.

I have pointed out repeatedly that a battlement is not a fortification. A battlement is a part of a building.

Read the Battlement section on page 95, I really think you are misunderstanding the difference between a building and a battlement.

Here's something to hopefully illustrate the difference.

Page 114 starts the pages on fortifications. You'll see the Aegis Devence Lines. They are classed as Fortifications and cost a number of points. So do models behind the Aegis line get a 3+ cover save? No.

Look at the entry. The terain type is Battlefield Debris (Defence lines).

Now go to page 104. Defence lines follow the same rules for barricades and walls. And a model in cover behind a barricade or wall gets a 4+ cover save.

So models in the defence line fortification only get a 4+ cover save.

Units on a battlement are on top of a building, not in a building, and even if they were considered to be in a fortification, they by rule only get the cover save granted by the walls of the battlement, a 4+.

If you place a piece of terrain on the field, like a trench, you could agree that it grants a 4+ cover save as per page 18, or you could agree that it is a fortified trench, in which case it would grant a 3+ cover save for being a fortification.

That would give you the cover save defined in the table on page 18. This is a set of generic saves for cover. You still have to use the relevant rules for a particular piece of terrain.

I hope I have presented my case in a manner consistant with the posting rules of this forum. If you believe I am trolling, please report me to a moderator.

time wizard wrote:Excues me. I am not being obtuse and I am certainly not trolling.

I have pointed out repeatedly that a battlement is not a fortification. A battlement is a part of a building.

Read the Battlement section on page 95, I really think you are misunderstanding the difference between a building and a battlement.

Here's something to hopefully illustrate the difference.

Page 114 starts the pages on fortifications. You'll see the Aegis Devence Lines. They are classed as Fortifications and cost a number of points. So do models behind the Aegis line get a 3+ cover save? No.

Look at the entry. The terain type is Battlefield Debris (Defence lines).

Now go to page 104. Defence lines follow the same rules for barricades and walls. And a model in cover behind a barricade or wall gets a 4+ cover save.

So models in the defence line fortification only get a 4+ cover save.

Units on a battlement are on top of a building, not in a building, and even if they were considered to be in a fortification, they by rule only get the cover save granted by the walls of the battlement, a 4+.

If you place a piece of terrain on the field, like a trench, you could agree that it grants a 4+ cover save as per page 18, or you could agree that it is a fortified trench, in which case it would grant a 3+ cover save for being a fortification.

That would give you the cover save defined in the table on page 18. This is a set of generic saves for cover. You still have to use the relevant rules for a particular piece of terrain.

I hope I have presented my case in a manner consistant with the posting rules of this forum. If you believe I am trolling, please report me to a moderator.

Alright, then. What would you say IS a fortification?

Wrakkar wrote:Alright, then. What would you say IS a fortification?

A fortified trench, or a fortified bunker, or a fortified waaagh tower. Whatever you and your opponent decide is a fortification that grants the 3+ cover save.

A skyshiled landing pad is in the 'fortification' section. It even says on page 115 that it's a fortification.

So do units on the landing pad get a 3+ cover save? No. The special rule of the 'fortification' says they get a 4++ save.

An imperial bastion is a fortification. Do units inside get a 3+ cover save? No. You cannot directly attack units inside a building, main rules page 93.

Note the entry for the imperial bastion on page 116, its terrain type is medium building. As such, it follows the rules for buildings.

And units in buildings do not get cover saves.

I agree with time wizard on this one. Say I havea home made bastion with me. Now on top of the bastion for battlement walls I have barbed wire. Do the models up there behind it automatically get a 3+ cover save because the bastion is a fortification? No. They get the 6+ for barbed wire.
If the modeled battlements are reinforced steel plates with anti-rocket cages on them, you would be able to argue it is a fortification. It all depends on what it is modelled to look like and what you and your opponent agree to.

Dannyevilguy wrote: If the modeled battlements are reinforced steel plates with anti-rocket cages on them, you would be able to argue it is a fortification. It all depends on what it is modelled to look like and what you and your opponent agree to.

True. You could have a battlement or the roof of a bastion that has no walls whatever. So you might agree with your opponent that models placed up there get no cover save at all.

Or you could put walls up there and agree with your opponent that they are fortified walls and as such grant a 3+ cover save instead of the 4+ for walls.

It just that being on top of the bastion does not automatically grant a 3+ cover save. That part is just wrong.

time wizard wrote:

Dannyevilguy wrote: If the modeled battlements are reinforced steel plates with anti-rocket cages on them, you would be able to argue it is a fortification. It all depends on what it is modelled to look like and what you and your opponent agree to.

True. You could have a battlement or the roof of a bastion that has no walls whatever. So you might agree with your opponent that models placed up there get no cover save at all.

Or you could put walls up there and agree with your opponent that they are fortified walls and as such grant a 3+ cover save instead of the 4+ for walls.

It just that being on top of the bastion does not automatically grant a 3+ cover save. That part is just wrong.

Fair enough.

A bastion and a F. o. R. are both fortifications as per the rules.

the Aegis defense line is a fortifications with special rules making it battlefield debris and only a 4+ cover save.

Any unit obscured by a fortification get a 3+ cover save.

The battlements on the bastion can obscure models. so these models receive a 3+ cover save as they are obscured by a fortification.

DeathReaper wrote: A bastion and a F. o. R. are both fortifications as per the rules.

They are both in the section titled "Fortifications" on pps. 114-117, yes.

DeathReaper wrote:the Aegis defense line is a fortifications with special rules making it battlefield debris and only a 4+ cover save.

No, it's terrain type is "Battlefield Debris (Defence lines)" which is detailed on page 104 (q.v.).

DeathReaper wrote:Any unit obscured by a fortification get a 3+ cover save.

So a unit on top of a shielded Skyshield Landing Pad does not get a 4+ invulnerable save, they only get a regular 3+ cover save?

DeathReaper wrote:The battlements on the bastion can obscure models. so these models receive a 3+ cover save as they are obscured by a fortification.

Units on battlements get their armour saves, because unlike units in a building that cannot be fired at, units on battlements can be fired at.
And again, the rule on page 95 says they can also get a cover save from the battlement walls, not the fortification, from the walls.
Walls as per page 104 give a 4+ cover save unless, as I said above, you and your opponent decide pre-game that the walls are fortified or fortifications, in which case your unit would then get a 3+ cover save.

The battlement is a part of the fortification, thus it grants whatever cover the fortification grants.

The Skyshield landing pad has its own rules stating they get a 4+ invuln.

The Skyshield will give both a 3+ cover and a 4+ invuln when the shields are up. The 3+ cover of course assuming that the models in question are being obscured by the Skyshield platform. If not then they don't get it.

Models on battlements get a 3+ cover save too, because Battlements are Fortifications.

I would also believe it is a 3+ cover save as its all part of the same fortifcation and the rulebook doesnt give any different cover save for the battlement part, naturally make sure you and your opponent agree the cover saves beforehand but it should be a 3+ cover save for a none ruined fortification/battlement and a 4+ for a ruined fortification/battlement as per pg 18 under the cover chart.

DeathReaper wrote:The battlement is a part of the fortification, thus it grants whatever cover the fortification grants.

Page 95, look at the battlement section, "Many buildings have flat roofs that can accomodate units - we refer to these as battlements."

So take a wooden outpost (page 92 (q.v.)). It has an AV of 10. It also has a flat roof. That roof is referred to as a battlement.

What cover save do your models on the roof get?

There is no cover classification of wooden outposts on page 18, so I guess they get none. But if they're obscured, they get the cover save of the building (according to you) but the building gives none. See the problem?

The battlement does not give the same cover save as the building, be it a wooden outpost, a bastion, a brick house or a bunker.

Page 95 clearly states that models on the battlement "...have to rely on their armour (and any cover save from the battlement walls) for protection."

Nowhere does it state that models on a battlement get any cover save contingent on the type of building the battlement is on.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Models on battlements get a 3+ cover save too, because Battlements are Fortifications.

Battlements are not fortifications, they are flat roofs! The distinction is made in the rules and is very important.

Keep in mind that the battlements CAN provide a 3+ cover save, it is just dependent on what kind of cover is up there. If it is the walls of the fortification extending, then yes, arguably it is a fortification. Or it could be an eldar rooftop with some lovely gardens up there that provide a 6+ cover save. A battlement is just normal terrain that happens to be elevated on top of a building. The cover is entirely dependent on what is up there.

Our gardens are a little bit more sturdier then your silly things. Even our Wraithlords are grown in them.