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djdarknoise wrote:I can't believe that this thread actually exists, and that the Original Poster actually thinks that the entire army is only allowed to fire two missiles whatsoever.

What the hell is it about this edition that has completely removed anyone's ability to actually read English?

The only things I can come up with are that people are trolling because they can, or they are upset that the new edition made their army not as cheesetastic and the only way to get back to their level of superiority it to attempt to destroy what semblance of balance was introduced with the new edition.

It says "Missiles are one use only, but most flyers can carry two or more to maintain a steady rate of fire throughout the game" A maximum of two missile can be fired per the shooting phase.

RAW say only two missles no matter how many planes can be fired, but RAI would make more sense as per plane.

I feel this thread will go on with debates between various factions thinking different things, first things first would be to wait for a TO ruling, then wait for the FAQ to come out.

It's vague and there's no need to RIGHT IN CAPS FOR NO APPARENT REASON. It just looks pathetic really, anyway I will take a backseat and watch this thread go back and forth.

RAW is you cannot ignore context, and the context is A flyer firing.

djdarknoise wrote:What the hell is it about this edition that has completely removed anyone's ability to actually read English?

It's not this edition. GW has a long tradition of bad writing that can genuinely confuse players. Fluff and rules in the same text block. Random word order that might make a rule mean something completely different if you analyze the sentence as they taught you in school. Add in the fact they're UK-based where some words have slightly different usage than in American dialects.

So to recap, the arguments in favor of 2 missiles / army per shooting phase are:

-That's what the rule in the rulebook says.

So far the arguments against are:

-The person issuing the argument is an asshat! And those are bad!

-People don't agree with you, so the 40k rulebook by extension can only be interpreted to mean what the peanut gallery wants it to based on some hunch about RAI

-The use of the word "context'' as some magic bullet shorthand for ''this is the way I want to read the rule and this is how I think it makes sense so that's how it is" without an acknowledgement that any context wherein the phrase ''you may only fire two missles per turn'' exists is a context that supports 2 missiles/army.

-"You can't read" etc

-and the glorious output of Nosferatu's standard 'run through an entire forum page of YMDC issuing short awkward absolutist one-shot statements that nobody really pays attention to' operating procedure.

So nothing involving one of those crazy...rules quotes. Actually, nothing at all really, except the usual knee-jerk "RAI should be this way!" responses - the ones that are irrelevant here. I'll repeat what was said earlier here -

MikeMcSomething wrote:If, before you type a post in this thread, your thoughts are along the lines of some vague "THIS TOTALLY MAKES SENSE THOUGH" without being able to show where you can do it then do everyone a favor and keep the post count down by not typing. I hear there's alot of awesome stuff to read in the 40k general discussion forum!

MikeMcSomething wrote:So to recap,
-The use of the word "context'' as some magic bullet shorthand for ''this is the way I want to read the rule and this is how I think it makes sense so that's how it is" without an acknowledgement that any context wherein the phrase ''you may only fire two missles per turn'' exists is a context that supports 2 missiles/army.

Actually context is everything.

Taking something out of context can change the entire meaning of the line.

The argument in favour of 2 per army are:

When ignoring the context of the rule, the rule says per army, and also you have to ignore the secodn part of the rule as it is inconvenient

The argument against is:

WHen actually reading the rule in context, you get 2 per flyer, and all parts of the rules make sense

nosferatu1001 wrote:WHen actually reading the rule in context, you get 2 per flyer, and all parts of the rules make sense

Making sense when reading a GW publication? Heresy!

Indeed. Given i play Khorne thats appropriate

Yeah RaW seems pretty clear 2 missiles per shooting phase.

Context is talking about flyers and the missiles that count must therefore only be fired by flyers and no more than 2 per turn.

So yes the RaW is that you can only fire 2 missile per turn and those missiles counts towards the total weapons the flyer or flyers that fired them can fire that turn.

Eg.

2 Stormravens zooming can fire 4 weapons each plus 1 PotMS weapon.

So the first storm raven fires it's assault cannon, multimelta and both sets of hurrican bolters at one target and uses PotMS to fire a missile at another target, it can't fire a 2nd missile as it is at it's maximum weapons for the turn.

The 2nd Stormraven doesn't have hurrican bolters so can only fire 3 weapons this turn as it can fire its assaultcannon and multimelta and is still allowed to fire a further 3 weapons but the 2 missiles per tunr rule comes in and stops it firing more than 1 missile.

The entire rule makes sense and is in context RaW.

However the actual rule is very clear to everyone and I imagine even the guy who started the thread. Is arguing RaW one of the main reasons to come to this forum page? yes. Is delibrately breaking the rules to follow RaW cheating? also yes...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a side point does that Missile rule make Typhoon missile launchers on flyers one shot weapons?

MikeMcSomething wrote:So to recap, the arguments in favor of 2 missiles / army per shooting phase are:

-[b]That's what the rule in the rulebook says.

Or, more precisely, that's what the rule in the rulebook says if you cherry-pick a single statement out of context.

Yes, context matters. It's what makes a given section of text make sense. Interpreting the rules as written involves all of the rule, not just the single statement that 'proves' your point.

At 2000 pts I may throw 30 missiles to the other side of the table. Would you really try to tell me I can't? Mmmm

insaniak wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:So to recap, the arguments in favor of 2 missiles / army per shooting phase are:

-[b]That's what the rule in the rulebook says.

Or, more precisely, that's what the rule in the rulebook says if you cherry-pick a single statement out of context.

Yes, context matters. It's what makes a given section of text make sense. Interpreting the rules as written involves all of the rule, not just the single statement that 'proves' your point.

The part where "This counts against the weapons you can fire this turn" =! "This means that missile rules apply on a per-flyer basis" and how those two rules can exist alongside each other have been hammered out twice in this thread (once in great detail on the post right above yours!) I would go quote them for you but you're a sharp guy and this thread is...a whopping two pages long.

But just for fun, I will restate, using fruits and vegetables! Get your garbage bags on kids, it might get messy!

A team can throw lots of fruit in a given turn, but each player may only throw 3 pieces of fruit per...fruiting phase. A player can throw apples if he wants! ONLY TWO APPLES CAN BE THROWN PER TURN. These apples count against a thrower's 3 fruit/phaselimit!

3 players can throw fruit and veggies in some of the following exciting combinations!

APPLE APPLE BANANA
LEMON LEMON WATERMELON
WATERMELON LEMON TOMATO

APPLE LEMON PEAR
PEAR PEAR PEAR
APPLE PEAR ORANGE

But they can't throw in combinations that follow, because it breaks the BOLDED TEXT STATING THAT ONLY TWO APPLES CAN BE THROWN PER TURN:

APPLE APPLE BANANA
APPLE PEAR PEAR
PEAR APPLE APPLE

Because that would mean 5 apples were thrown this turn! And I don't have anything saying that a player can break the BOLDED TEXT STATING THAT ONLY TWO APPLES CAN BE THROWN PER TURN

Another exciting, but not legal combination!

APPLE APPLE PEAR
PEAR PEAR PEAR
APPLE PEAR PEAR

Because that would mean 3 apples were thrown this turn! And I don't have anything saying that a player can break the BOLDED TEXT STATING THAT ONLY TWO APPLES CAN BE THROWN PER TURN

This is now, the third time, in two pages, that this has been hashed out. If anyone comes in here saying something to the effect that "This counts against your maximum weapons you can fire per turn is a sentence that magically grants me the ability to ignore a restriction that was placed on my army one sentence ago" then they clearly haven't read the damn thread hard enough. If the examples presented aren't clear enough let me know and maybe we can mock something up with sock puppets.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toban wrote:At 2000 pts I may throw 30 missiles to the other side of the table. Would you really try to tell me I can't? Mmmm

Can we all just agree that posts like this have never ever added anything useful or constructive or shed any sort of light on anything, anywhere, ever? And stop wasting time in threads that discuss actual rules, forever? Please? If you absolutely have to brainvomit something that nobody cares to read, the General Discussion thread is that way --------->

@mikemcsomething:
I won't quote the run through of how not to read the text but is there anywhere but in a per vehicle model basis that you need to know how many weapons were fired? Is there anywhere else in the book that supports your idea?

MikeMcSomething wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toban wrote:At 2000 pts I may throw 30 missiles to the other side of the table. Would you really try to tell me I can't? Mmmm

Can we all just agree that posts like this have never ever added anything useful or constructive or shed any sort of light on anything, anywhere, ever? And stop wasting time in threads that discuss actual rules, forever? Please? If you absolutely have to brainvomit something that nobody cares to read, the General Discussion thread is that way --------->

Pot-kettle-black

It doesn't say "You may only fire two missiles PER ARMY" so why would you think you can only fire two missiles per army?

Since the OP is clearly more interested in linguisitc silliness than in actual discussion, I think we're done here.