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BRB -


Many Flyers are armed with a special kind of weapon called a
missile, clearly denoted by their name: Bloodstrike Missiles,
Implosion Missiles, and so on are good examples.
Missiles are one use only, but most Flyers carry two or more
to maintain a steady weight of fire throughout the game. A
maximum
of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase,
and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn.


The rules are written such that two missiles can be fired per army, per turn - am I reading this correctly? 3x Razorwings can only put out a total of 2 missles per shooting phase between them?

There is no limitation to how many weapons or missiles fired per army per turn. Since vehicles, flyers included, have a limited number of weapons they can fire missiles count toward that total. Two flyers could each fire two missiles in one turn for a total of 4 missiles your army fired.

Do you have a source for that?

What you're missing as that they are talking about special weapon systems on a per flyer basis. Read this sentence in the rule, "and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn." If it referred to army wide use of missiles, would that line be in there? It doesn't matter how many are fired by the army, you don't keep track of that. However we do keep track of how many are fired by a vehicle.

Lone Dragoon wrote:What you're missing as that they are talking about special weapon systems on a per flyer basis. Read this sentence in the rule, "and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn." If it referred to army wide use of missiles, would that line be in there? It doesn't matter how many are fired by the army, you don't keep track of that. However we do keep track of how many are fired by a vehicle.

Could be inclusive IE this counts against your 2 missile per army turn limit AND the number of weapons this flyer has used this shooting phase.

Common sense (notably uncommon) would indicate it as meaning 2 missiles per flyer.

the wording is 'A maximum of two missiles can be fired per shooting phase' (pg 81 rulebook) , but in the context of the rest of the paragraph it would be referring to each flier, not each army.

You could be an asshat and RAW-lawyer an opposing BA player out of all his Bloodstrikes or whatever, but i think the intent is reasonably clear.

GENTLEMEN OF YOU MAKE DA CALL

COMMON SENSE IS NOT A SOURCE, THIS IS GW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT

AND CALLING ME AN ASSHAT DOESNT WIN YOU ANY POINTS, IT JUST TELLS ME YOU RAN OUT OF IDEAS

THANKS FOR PLAYING

MikeMcSomething wrote:Could be inclusive IE this counts against your 2 missile per army turn limit AND the number of weapons this flyer has used this shooting phase.

Burden of proof is up to you to show that it applies on an army wide scale. Nothing in the rule states that it is army wide, especially since it is specifically talking about flyers shooting weapons in the shooting phase, not its implications for inclusion in an army. When you can come up with something that shows it stands for army wide, you might have an argument.

This is an inclusive ruleset Dragoon - rulebook says you can shoot two missiles per turn, not each flyer can shoot two missiles per turn, so you can shoot two missiles per turn.

THINK PEOPLE

ITS AN EXERCISE

USE YOUR BRAINS

Typing in all caps could make you one too, but the statement was that you (meaning someone in general) COULD be an asshat and misinterpret the rule to their advantage. Shall i change it to 'one could be an asshat' ? Same meaning, but that way it sounds a bit more pretentious

RAI is pretty clear.

RAW could theoretically be twisted into meaning that an army only gets two missiles per phase, but in the context of the paragraph it refers to the flier, not the army.

Thanks for flying off the handle Please insert 25c and hit replay

If, before you type a post in this thread, your thoughts are along the lines of some vague "THIS TOTALLY MAKES SENSE THOUGH" without being able to show where you can do it then do everyone a favor and keep the post count down by not typing. I hear there's alot of awesome stuff to read in the 40k general discussion forum!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:Typing in all caps could make you one too, but the statement was that you (meaning someone in general) COULD be an asshat and misinterpret the rule to their advantage. Shall i change it to 'one could be an asshat' ? Same meaning, but that way it sounds a bit more pretentious

RAI is pretty clear.

RAW could theoretically be twisted into meaning that an army only gets two missiles per phase, but in the context of the paragraph it refers to the flier, not the army.

Thanks for flying off the handle Please insert 25c and hit replay

This entire post is some absurd abuse of the english language intented to reiterate that you think I'm an asshat. I'm here to discuss rules, not your opinion of some guy on the internet via a wargaming forum. Thanks anyway!

The paragraph you cherrypicked the phrase

'A maximum of two missiles can be fired per shooting phase' from refers to fliers carrying two or more missiles to maintain a stready weight of fire though the game, and that the missiles fired count towards the number of weapons shot that turn. The only time you would count the number of weapons shot would be on a model-by-model basis, as some movement modes limit the weapons you can shoot.

You can Raw-wrangle the phrase to mean that it includes the whole army, as it doesn't actually state that it DOESN"T mean the whole army, but neither does it state that it does.

Also you might want to consider taking a breath. This isn't a translation of (Holy Book of your Choice) unless you are really religiously fanatical about 40K (some are), and your all caps (which indicates shouting in forum-speak) added to your rather abrasive manner isn't exactly making you come across as a reasonable individual

MikeMcSomething wrote:GENTLEMEN OF YOU MAKE DA CALL

COMMON SENSE IS NOT A SOURCE, THIS IS GW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT

AND CALLING ME AN ASSHAT DOESNT WIN YOU ANY POINTS, IT JUST TELLS ME YOU RAN OUT OF IDEAS

THANKS FOR PLAYING

Dude, we're right here. Stop yelling.

Seriously, stop yelling. (talk about not winning points).

The accuser bears the burden of proof. You say it is that way but there is no rules support for the claim. I don't have to prove you are wrong you have to prove you are right.

Btw, if you don't want to be called, or possibly referred to as an asshat since no one said you were one, don't be an asshat. There, I am calling you one. But that is separate from my argument. And I am here to talk rules and tease people who are asshats. So, if you don't like what I post don't read it.

MikeMcSomething wrote:This is an inclusive ruleset Dragoon - rulebook says you can shoot two missiles per turn, not each flyer can shoot two missiles per turn, so you can shoot two missiles per turn.

The problem with that, is this is a permissive ruleset. We have to be told we have permission to do something before we can do it. Do we have permission to count this as an army wide rule?

The other mistake you're making in this logical fallacy is that you're only using part of the sentence, that which is bold print in the book. It tells us that a maximum of two missiles can be fired per shooting phase, and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn. The second half of the sentence has to come into play in this. If something "counts towards the number of weapons fired that turn" there must be some sort of limitation on firing all weapons. The only time there is a limitation on firing weapons in the entire book is if a model can only fire one weapon and carries multiple weapons, or it falls under the flyer rule where there is a limitation of 4 weapons fired per turn. Thus we can attempt to apply the second half of that statement to both rules, and find that the only time the second half of the statement comes into play is when we have a limitation on weapons that may be fired apply to the flyers rules only since it is inapplicable to the normal rules for carrying multiple weapons. Why is it inapplicable there? Two reasons. The first, we are in a section specifically designated as flyers, meaning all the rules there will only ever pertain to a flyer. However on deeper examination the other reason it is inapplicable to models carrying multiple weapons, the fact that not all weapons carried are missiles means that it could only apply to the small subset of models armed with missile launchers. Since it can only apply to flyers or models with missile launchers, the problem comes in that we are talking about "special weapons systems" not all missiles, thus it can only apply to flyers and missiles they fire. Since we have already determined that the limitation imposed (the counts towards...) can only apply to flyers firing missiles since it is the only limitation that has any semblance of substance when combining both halves of the previous statement, it must therefore only be applicable to the flyers weapon firing limitations.

Yes I'm bored and felt like giving a full paragraph of legalese for an answer.

The context of the statement makes clear that it's talking about per-flyer. The game contains restrictions on how many weapons a given vehicle can fire each turn, based on movement. It contains no rules restricting how many weapons an army can fire in a given turn.

MikeMcSomething wrote:If, before you type a post in this thread, your thoughts are along the lines of some vague "THIS TOTALLY MAKES SENSE THOUGH" without being able to show where you can do it then do everyone a favor and keep the post count down by not typing. I hear there's alot of awesome stuff to read in the 40k general discussion forum!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:Typing in all caps could make you one too, but the statement was that you (meaning someone in general) COULD be an asshat and misinterpret the rule to their advantage. Shall i change it to 'one could be an asshat' ? Same meaning, but that way it sounds a bit more pretentious

RAI is pretty clear.

RAW could theoretically be twisted into meaning that an army only gets two missiles per phase, but in the context of the paragraph it refers to the flier, not the army.

Thanks for flying off the handle Please insert 25c and hit replay

This entire post is some absurd abuse of the english language intented to reiterate that you think I'm an asshat. I'm here to discuss rules, not your opinion of some guy on the internet via a wargaming forum. Thanks anyway!

Since you apparently don't understand English idiom too well :

"You could say that i'm an opera goer " = Someone (nonspecific) could say that the subject of the discussion liks opera. - Its a pretty common usage.

" One could say that I'm an opera goer" = Ditto.

I would consider anyone trying to claim that you only get two missiles per army as being an asshat. If this includes you, so be it. I have not, however, directly called you one, as that would be a personal attack, rather than my statement of opinion on those who endorse that interpretation of the rule.

The rules are unclear (GW tends to be) as to the sentence referring to each flier or to the army as a whole. You've chosen to interpret them to refer to the army as a whole. OK.

Don't expect everyone else to do so, just because to you it seems crystal clear. The rule is just as RAW-valid when applied to the flier that was the subject of the paragraph, and i fully expect that this will be the way everyone else plays it.

Alright, let's thing about this from a different angle. Let's say I'm playing Blood Angels with two Stormravens. They each come with 4 bloodstrike missiles. Now on my turn, each of my Stormravens fires two missiles.

I have fired 4 missiles this shooting phase.

pg 81 of the BRB says "A maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase, and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn."

I have fired 4 missiles this shooting phase. A maximum of two missiles can be fired per shooting phase. Can anyone quote passage that resolves this contradiction?

RAI seems to be pretty obvious to me. If I was a designer and I didn't want more than 2 missiles to be fired in a shooting phase period, i would write "A maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase".

Ninja Elk wrote:I have fired 4 missiles this shooting phase. A maximum of two missiles can be fired per shooting phase. Can anyone quote passage that resolves this contradiction?

Have a look at the Context of the paragraph on P. 81

"A maximum of two missiles can be fired per Shooting phase, and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn."

"and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn." (This part means each flyer can fire two missiles per shooting phase).

Hmmm... first post huh? Gee, welcome to Dakka...

Is this forum just for trolling now? Let's have some serious questions.

When everyone is agreeing against you. Your probably wrong.

Context is everything. A sentence (or fragment) out of context of its whole looses correct meaning very quickly.

Two para above the part being quoted the BRB states:
"Flyers have access to two special weapons systems: Missiles and Bombs. Missiles can be used while the flyer is hovering or zooming. Bombs can only be used while zooming."

Not to mention that every line except the one being quoted talks about flyers and their missiles.

As such, since the entire paragraph surrounding this bolded rule is about flyers (as are the paragraphs above it), Flyers may fire 2 missiles per shooting phase.

DeathReaper wrote:"and they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn." (This part means each flyer can fire two missiles per shooting phase).

Deathreaper nailed it right there. You count weapons fired per vehicle, not as an army total. Therefore the "two missiles" must refer to how many a single flyer can fire in a turn.

The larger context is also important. What section is that rule taken from? Flyers shooting. Meaning it is in a very specific area. It is not taken from a much broader area, such as, say, universal special rules, which is where things like "one shot" are defined. If it were in USR, it would apply to the whole army. If it were in shooting with flyers, and meant to apply to the whole army, the rule would specify "only two per army per shooting phase", as GW has done in the past.

However, that is not the case. The case is that rule as written is slightly ambiguous. When it is, context must be used. Context implies two missiles per flyer. NOTHING implies two missiles per army, except for someone who apparently angry at Dark Eldar flyers.

Also, saying you can't make logical assumptions because it's GW is a terrible attitude.

In a case like this, the RAI is very clear, but if you want to argue RAW, go ahead. With as insubstantial a case as "BECAUSE I WANT IT TO MEAN THIS SO I CAN WINXORS!" then you will have trouble finding opponents.

Instead of arguing with internet strangers because you don't like their answer, try asking the TO at your local shop. See what they say.

Alright, I can see how the second half of that sentence references a rule that has already been established as being flyer specific. But if context is all important, let's look at the rest of the missile section. The sentence immediately preceding on page 81 is:

"Missiles are one use only, but most Flyers carry two or more to maintain a steady weight of fire throughout the game."

Now let's take this into context. There are not a ton of flyers with missiles, but Stormravens have 4 missiles in the Blood Angel and Grey Knight lists. Razorwings have four missiles in the Dark Eldar list. If you fill up your Heavy Support choices with 3 of any of these flyers, you get 12 missiles. If you can only fire two per turn you get 2 missiles per turn for 6 turns (the average game length). If you can fire two missiles per turn per flyer, you get 6 missiles per turn for 2 turns.

Now tell me, which of those two scenarios do you think qualifies as maintaining a steady weight of fire throughout the game?

That seems like pretty strong contextual evidence to me.

I see a lot of people on here calling me a troll, and implying that anyone speaking out against the majority group think is obviously just trying to bend the rules to their favor in order to squeeze out a few ill-gotten wins at the expense of having fun. I hope you all can take a step back here and realize how absurd these sentiments are. How are we supposed to have productive rules discussions if anyone on the less popular side is automatically ostracized?

If you say only 2 missiles can be fired be turn, how do longfangs work? Cyclone terminators? Multiple tactical squads? Every other rule about weapons and wargear in the game is only talking on a per unit/vehicle standpoint unless specified otherwise.

Off topic: Random new guy shows up for his first post on the entire forum to agree with the dissenting minority(read: lone shouting guy) who has been absent since the new guy arrived. Could we have found the OP's calmer alter ego?

-cgmckenzie

It is very clear from reading it that it says that a flyer can only fire two missiles per turn and that those missiles count towards the total weapons fired.

If i put cyclone missile launchers on my raven, it can fire that and count it as 1 shot despite firing two frag/krak missiles.
I can then shoot 2 bloodstrikes and mess up your armour a little depending on my movement that turn.

Ninja Elk wrote:Alright, I can see how the second half of that sentence references a rule that has already been established as being flyer specific. But if context is all important, let's look at the rest of the missile section. The sentence immediately preceding on page 81 is:

"Missiles are one use only, but most Flyers carry two or more to maintain a steady weight of fire throughout the game."

Now let's take this into context. There are not a ton of flyers with missiles, but Stormravens have 4 missiles in the Blood Angel and Grey Knight lists. Razorwings have four missiles in the Dark Eldar list. If you fill up your Heavy Support choices with 3 of any of these flyers, you get 12 missiles. If you can only fire two per turn you get 2 missiles per turn for 6 turns (the average game length). If you can fire two missiles per turn per flyer, you get 6 missiles per turn for 2 turns.

Now tell me, which of those two scenarios do you think qualifies as maintaining a steady weight of fire throughout the game?

That seems like pretty strong contextual evidence to me.

Ork Burnabommas can carry 6 each. That would give you 18.

You are also not required to fire them off every turn, as you may have a poor LOS on a target (likely with the new flier rules) , or no target that turn that the missiles can actually hurt.

Remember that the missiles count against your total weapons fired also. You may find yourself in a situation where the fliers guns would be more useful to use that turn.

Some fliers may be carrying anti-infantry missiles (necrotoxin say) and antitank guns (voidlances). It would be moronic to loose off your very expensive necrotoxins at the tank you are trying to vape with the voidlances, as they would do absolutely jack


**edit for lousy typing skills**

I can't believe that this thread actually exists, and that the Original Poster actually thinks that the entire army is only allowed to fire two missiles whatsoever.

What the hell is it about this edition that has completely removed anyone's ability to actually read English?