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Beasts move 12" and have Fleet and Move Through Cover (mostly for the Dangerous rolls in this case) +aren't slowed by cover at all. Baron has a jump pack, so as long as he uses it in the movement phase he can keep up, and since he has Fleet he doesn't slow them down with assaults. The only exception is if you assault into terrain, you lose the Ignore Cover completely element of Beasts, but still get Move Through Cover (so you roll an extra dice with a re-roll) so its not that bad. In some rare circumstances you might only move the unit 6" and be able to completely ignore terrain on the assault as well though (using the jump pack on the charge).

Adding the Autarch complicates things a bit more, since that gives you three different unit types in a single unit, but he doesn't really change things much. On a Jetbike he can move 12", so again no changes in the movement phase. Since he is on a Bike and can't run I think he prevents the unit from running, but since he still has Fleet (he doesn't lose it when he buys the jetbike and as far as I can tell he can still use it) you still get the re-rolls when assaulting. Considering how incredibly fast this unit is its only likely to run once, since even without it you are going to be in your opponents deployment zone by turn 2. If you really feel like you need it you can always join the Autarch to the unit turn 2 anyway.

Even looking at this unit from a purely Dark Eldar perspective its gotten much better. Baron + Beasts used to be a pretty common combo, but now its a no brainer since he can keep up.

Powerguy, thanks for clarifying. Beasts now move 12'' and so movement in concert with jetbikes is now congruent. That's nice.

As you said, the unit could reach the enemy deployment zone early in the game. But note that 2 of the 3 deployments are different now, allowing larger gaps between the armies.

This could mean that the Beastmaster squad needs 2 turns to reach the enemy front ranks. In concert with Eldar, I would be inclined to throw a Serpent in front of them giving them cover.

For running foot Dar it seems like replacing a unit of harlequins with 10 razorwing flocks with 5 beast masters would be cheaper in points, faster and have way more rending attacks. Plus the squad has 55 wounds or 15 instant kill wounds instead of only7-10 flat with a 5++. Add the baron and they have assault grenades so they wouldn't be crippled from charging into cover.This would cost you more than 10 new wraithguard mind you, and they're not on Ebay... I checked :(

Sphe wrote:For running foot Dar it seems like replacing a unit of harlequins with 10 razorwing flocks with 5 beast masters would be cheaper in points, faster and have way more rending attacks. Plus the squad has 55 wounds or 15 instant kill wounds instead of only7-10 flat with a 5++. Add the baron and they have assault grenades so they wouldn't be crippled from charging into cover.This would cost you more than 10 new wraithguard mind you, and they're not on Ebay... I checked :(

In fact, a Beastmaster unit is a better add-on than Harlies. But its really costly due to fine cast blisters.

Hmm...well the issue you will run into is most likely what you want from the FA slot that you can get.
Basically you HQ will probably either be
A) Haemonculus or haemonculi (up to 3 as one HQ choice) to give FNP to wyches or incubi. Give these guys a liquifier or a venom blade.
or
B) Archon w/ Shadowfield, Agoniser, drugs, haywire grenades, and maybe a phantasm. You add this guy to some Incubi to just make the whole squad scary. Fortune just makes them dumb. Don't want the archon to take that Krak Missile roll a 2+ Look Out Sir! Failed? 2++ rerollable save so he would only die on 3 consecutive 1s. Plus with a nasty number of attacks, w/ a PW that wounds on 4s at a high Int and Fleet (what that's worth now). He's just not as good as the old book, but better than 5th. IMO

Elites. Well FD are better than blasterborn so I would avoid them, and your harlies are better than ours now so no there to...most of the "coven" units need a list around them so no there to. Bloodbrides are just expensive wyches if you absolutely have to have more haywire grenades, so I would say Incubi are the best bet from the elites area. Avoid 2+ armor with them though or else it will hurt. The Klaivex w/ DemiKlaives is one of the few sources of AP 2 or no armor in CC in the book but he is really expensive for a 1 wound 3+ armor save model. 5 or so incubi are nasty with 15 S4 AP3 I5 swings on the charge. They don't have plasmas though hence the reason for the Archon having a phantasm.

Troops. Either
A) Wyches, either 5 girls in a venom w/ haywires and the extra Splinter Cannon. Since haywires can be thrown DE can actually hit a zooming flyer with grenades and they make a decent AT unit. The other kit out is 9 girls, w/ one as a hekatrix w/ agoniser, haywires, and a razorflail. Put them in a raider. You don't need a FF since as long as you move you can jink. This one you would add a haemy too and charge him at the enemy first to keep the wyches away from overwatching flamers.
or
B) Warriors, 5 guys w/ a blaster in a venom w/ 2 cannons is just 125 so it is a great deal for some nasty anti-horde plus a shot at anti-armor.

Wracks can be taken as a troop w/ a haemy or hellions w/ Baron. Personally I don't like either, especially with Eldar as the primary.

Heavy.
A) Ravagers are always good and cheap for 3 BS 4 lance shots. Keep in mind they have night vision too.
or
B) A flyer. Razorwing Jetfighters are good at ground targets with the free missiles and the option for the cannon. Voidravens are better at anti-air (these should be reversed IMO) with the stronger guns. I prefer the voidraven, but there is no model yet. Either way give them FF so you don't have to jink and thus snap fire.

Fast. Now things get interesting.
A) Beasts. While not as good as 5th they are still nasty with flocks rending and with Baron you get stealth and a PGL for offensive grenades.

B) Reavers. Yes I know Eldar have bikes (that can even be taken as troops) but these guys are nasty with all the speed benefits you have plus skilled rider gives them a 4+ cover or 3+ cover when turboing or when with Baron. Plus with the ability to rocket as fast as they do and do attacks with bladevanes they are good. The old shoot and scoot still works nicely although a bit less reliably.

C) Scourges. An often overlooked unit, scourges get more special weapons than any other FA option @ 2 per 5 models. So a block of 10 (max size) can pick up 4 special weapons. Normally the go to was either a DL for sniping mech, Heat Lances or Blasters for DS in and trying to get in close behind something like a russ. Now though a cheaper option in the haywire blaster seems to be the go to for them since in addition to the S 4 shot you get a haywire grenade against vehicles.

Transports
A) Venoms. They need smaller units but with 12 Poisoned (4+) shots with the extra SC these guys in bulk are scary.

B) Raiders. While they can go up to 10 guys, they can either have a dissie for anti-horde or a Dark Lance for AT. DL are nasty since you get all the benefits of a Bright Lance, but at BS 4 and night vision.

wuestenfux wrote:Powerguy: Wait, the Beastmaster unit counts as beasts, and Baron and an Autarch on jetbike count as jetbikes. How does that complement (move, shoot, run, fof, charge) well?

all move 12" in movement
all move 2d6 with a reroll in the assault phase
Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain, ever.
jet bikes can always move in the assault phase
jet bikes can turboboost
jump packs can deep strike
jet bikes cannon run in the shooting phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toranaga wrote:Has anyone toyed with concept of tag-teaming the Baron with a Seer Council on jetbikes? For a humble 105 pts he gives them a 2++ re-rollable shadow field with fortune, but more importantly Hit and Run. This allows the council to bail from a tar pit or an uphill battle and strike with destructors before charging again. His stealth effect is less useful, and he can't turbo-boost with the rest of the jetcouncil, but the hit and run and shadow field are definitely worth the modest price, especially considering he helps gain the upper hand in deployment as well. Add in another farseer casting invisibility or prescience and you've got a jet-council that can lay deathstar beatdowns all around.

he also gives the unit assault and defensive grenades


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:
Moreover, the Baron allow Hellions to be taken as troops. Since I love these models, I'll think about such a tag team.

Too bad Hellions aren't any good

While I realize that harlies werent fantastic to start with I dont see how they have been made worse by 6ed. Quite the opposite, 4++ in the open and 2++ save with cover is pretty neat. With fortune they are extremly durable. And since they cant be shot until at earliest 24" their relative lack of speed is not the end of the world. I if anyone want to gamble for double 6s then thats fine with me...

The nerf to FC doesnt really hurt them that much, they will still strike before most enemies.

So all in all, they became massivly more durable for a minor drawback.

tedurur wrote:While I realize that harlies werent fantastic to start with I dont see how they have been made worse by 6ed. Quite the opposite, 4++ in the open and 2++ save with cover is pretty neat. With fortune they are extremly durable. And since they cant be shot until at earliest 24" their relative lack of speed is not the end of the world. I if anyone want to gamble for double 6s then thats fine with me...

The nerf to FC doesnt really hurt them that much, they will still strike before most enemies.

So all in all, they became massivly more durable for a minor drawback.

But how do you use them?

In a footdar list they definitely make a good counter-strike unit. However, in mechdar they are not often seen, since they don't have a clear role - either walking behind the tanks or transported by a tank (but now they cannot charge after they have disembarked).

You use them in a foot list. Ofc they wont be any good in a full mech list, that goes without saying really.

tedurur wrote:While I realize that harlies werent fantastic to start with I dont see how they have been made worse by 6ed. Quite the opposite, 4++ in the open and 2++ save with cover is pretty neat. With fortune they are extremly durable. And since they cant be shot until at earliest 24" their relative lack of speed is not the end of the world. I if anyone want to gamble for double 6s then thats fine with me...
So all in all, they became massivly more durable for a minor drawback.

its not a 4++ or 2++. Flamers are making a comeback and they will shredd Quins even with the 5++


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wuestenfux wrote:

But how do you use them?

In a footdar list they definitely make a good counter-strike unit. However, in mechdar they are not often seen, since they don't have a clear role - either walking behind the tanks or transported by a tank (but now they cannot charge after they have disembarked).

even if they could assault after disembarking their paper armor would be a death trap inside a transport. Even if it is a wreck your troops are going to be all clumped up to be hit by a flamer.

Powerguy wrote:The Council imo took a hit thanks to the change to how Witchblades work, S3 with 2D6 pen is nowhere near as reliable as S9 particularly when you are striking AV10 most of the time. You drop from an auto glance to a ~40% chance of doing nothing, which doesn't really balance out the fact that hitting vehicles is easier now. Against infantry they still aren't particularly impressive since they lack the attacks to get enough wounds through. The Baron is definitely a very nice ally though, imo since you need an ally HQ its either him or a Haemonculi (or 3), the rest really gel better with DE units (which you can't take that many of as allies) or sit in niches which the Eldar HQs can already cover. For me the best place for him is a Beast pack though, they hit much much harder than the Council, have 3 times as many wounds, don't rely on psychic powers to function (Council without Fortune is toast, Beasts are still dangerous without Doom/other re-rolls), get more from his Stealth and he no longer slows them down. If you want more punch you can always add in a Jetbike Autarch with Laser Lance, who prevents the unit from running but otherwise doesn't slow them down (still has Fleet).

Au contraire, don't dismiss the council. I believe they're even more powerful than before. You're certainly correct that their witchblades got a bit gimped - if they were swinging at stationary vehicles - but the fact that they can now hit a vehicle going flat out on a 3+ in close combat (as opposed to 6 as it was before) more than makes up for this nerf - so against fast moving vehicles they are even more effective. The jet council was never great at dealing out wounds in close combat - where they shine in this edition is thier mobility - which allows them to scoot around the sides of an enemy unit to where they can snipe with destructor spam. 3-5 destructors on overwatch will just mow down anyone attempting to charge the council. If you can pull off an invisibility blessing (combined with jink, this provides a 2+ cover save), or attach the Baron with his shadowfield - the unit becomes extremely hard to kill with fortune, and can tar-pit or hit-and run as needed. Embolden and runes of witnessing ensures that fortune stays on. The new bike toughness rules also mean the farseer won't get insta-killed until getting hit by strength 8.

The Beastmasters look promising however. For the points they seem to be a pretty mean dedicated close combat unit - though they might fold to serious firepower pointed their way or overwatch. A jetcouncil, the Baron, AND Beastmasters together would be full of win.

I disagree re: beasts. Their primary feature in 5th was durability a la wound allocation nonsense. Now that str6 will outright kill 5 wound bird bases, I wouldn't count on them for anything.

I'd rather put the baron in the front of a unit of jetbikes or seer council to tank with shadowfield.

Without the baron, they're less durable (no stealth) and don't have grenades..

jcress410 wrote:I disagree re: beasts. Their primary feature in 5th was durability a la wound allocation nonsense. Now that str6 will outright kill 5 wound bird bases, I wouldn't count on them for anything.

I'd rather put the baron in the front of a unit of jetbikes or seer council to tank with shadowfield.

Without the baron, they're less durable (no stealth) and don't have grenades..

stealth isnt so useful on a unit that has a 4++ invul but only 5+ innate cover. Regular jetbikes sure, but he is better with DE jetbikes.

So the consequence from this thread so far is that a Jetseer Council, the Baron, and a Beastmaster squad have some synergy.
One could run the Baron with the Council, the Baron with the Beasts, or all of them together.

In view of HS, I'd consider a Ravager for anti-tank (dark lances) or anti-Termie (disintegrators) or a Razorwing.

Toranaga wrote:

Powerguy wrote:The Council imo took a hit thanks to the change to how Witchblades work, S3 with 2D6 pen is nowhere near as reliable as S9 particularly when you are striking AV10 most of the time. You drop from an auto glance to a ~40% chance of doing nothing, which doesn't really balance out the fact that hitting vehicles is easier now. Against infantry they still aren't particularly impressive since they lack the attacks to get enough wounds through. The Baron is definitely a very nice ally though, imo since you need an ally HQ its either him or a Haemonculi (or 3), the rest really gel better with DE units (which you can't take that many of as allies) or sit in niches which the Eldar HQs can already cover. For me the best place for him is a Beast pack though, they hit much much harder than the Council, have 3 times as many wounds, don't rely on psychic powers to function (Council without Fortune is toast, Beasts are still dangerous without Doom/other re-rolls), get more from his Stealth and he no longer slows them down. If you want more punch you can always add in a Jetbike Autarch with Laser Lance, who prevents the unit from running but otherwise doesn't slow them down (still has Fleet).

Au contraire, don't dismiss the council. I believe they're even more powerful than before. You're certainly correct that their witchblades got a bit gimped - if they were swinging at stationary vehicles - but the fact that they can now hit a vehicle going flat out on a 3+ in close combat (as opposed to 6 as it was before) more than makes up for this nerf - so against fast moving vehicles they are even more effective. The jet council was never great at dealing out wounds in close combat - where they shine in this edition is thier mobility - which allows them to scoot around the sides of an enemy unit to where they can snipe with destructor spam. 3-5 destructors on overwatch will just mow down anyone attempting to charge the council. If you can pull off an invisibility blessing (combined with jink, this provides a 2+ cover save), or attach the Baron with his shadowfield - the unit becomes extremely hard to kill with fortune, and can tar-pit or hit-and run as needed. Embolden and runes of witnessing ensures that fortune stays on. The new bike toughness rules also mean the farseer won't get insta-killed until getting hit by strength 8.

The Beastmasters look promising however. For the points they seem to be a pretty mean dedicated close combat unit - though they might fold to serious firepower pointed their way or overwatch. A jetcouncil, the Baron, AND Beastmasters together would be full of win.

If you care to do the maths you will find that they aren't really any more powerful. In the past 10 Warlocks with Witchblades you would get you 2.5 glances and 12.5 pens against a vehicle moving less than 6" and 0.8 and 4.1 respectively against a faster moving vehicle (and 5 and 25 for stationary not that it matters, that tank is well past dead at that stage). Now you average 3.3 glances and 8.3 pens against a vehicle which moves at all, and 5 and 12.5 if it didn't move at all. So overall its better against faster movers but much worse against slow movers/stationary, so that's a push. Of course if you consider vehicles with more than AV10 they really fall on their face, the 2D6 distribution curve means you are really stretching above 10 and could actually struggle with Dread, whereas S9 would deal with Land Raiders in the volumes the Council could put out. For me though the real killer is something no one has brought up at all, the changes to multi assaults. Similar to the way Wraiths work the strength of the Council was not so much its damage output (both units can hurt pretty much anything, but they aren't smacking you around with Thunderhammers or 100 attacks) but its ability to link assaults and take out (even if that just means tying them up) large chunks of your army at once. JetCouncils really don't threaten parking lots anywhere near as much now, you can hit maybe 2 vehicles and hope to kill them rather than disabling 4+ vehicles at once.

If you attach the Baron and two Farseers (since I'm really hoping you aren't giving up Fortune for the slight chance of rolling Invisibility) then I will spread out, dump shots into the unit from angles that you can't allocate to the 2++ re-rollable, and either wait for you to weaken yourself (if I have Warding) or for Fortune to be blocked (if I have a Rune Priest, Hood or Shadows) or the Baron's field to break (which will happen even with Fortune if someone dumps 6+ Venoms or similar per turn into the unit) and the unit to fold.

Powerguy wrote:
If you care to do the maths you will find that they aren't really any more powerful. In the past 10 Warlocks with Witchblades you would get you 2.5 glances and 12.5 pens against a vehicle moving less than 6" and 0.8 and 4.1 respectively against a faster moving vehicle (and 5 and 25 for stationary not that it matters, that tank is well past dead at that stage). Now you average 3.3 glances and 8.3 pens against a vehicle which moves at all, and 5 and 12.5 if it didn't move at all. So overall its better against faster movers but much worse against slow movers/stationary, so that's a push. Of course if you consider vehicles with more than AV10 they really fall on their face, the 2D6 distribution curve means you are really stretching above 10 and could actually struggle with Dread, whereas S9 would deal with Land Raiders in the volumes the Council could put out.

I agree that the council took a bit of a hit against vehicles, but vehicles took a hit in survivability as well. 3 glances or pens will now kill any vehicle. Clearly dreads and ironclad dreads are now much better against the council than they use to be; however, dreads are worse against just about all other combat units. With every SM packing Krak and DE and CWE being able to take haywire grenades, the age of the dread is dead.
Land raiders never were a real problem for Eldar or DE

Powerguy wrote:
For me though the real killer is something no one has brought up at all, the changes to multi assaults. Similar to the way Wraiths work the strength of the Council was not so much its damage output (both units can hurt pretty much anything, but they aren't smacking you around with Thunderhammers or 100 attacks) but its ability to link assaults and take out (even if that just means tying them up) large chunks of your army at once. JetCouncils really don't threaten parking lots anywhere near as much now, you can hit maybe 2 vehicles and hope to kill them rather than disabling 4+ vehicles at once.

Parking lots might still be common but now you can sit outside their range and focus fire a few of the transports dead each turn. Blasts also hurt parking lots a lot. I think mech and parking lots are going to still be out there but I think they will change.

Powerguy wrote:
If you attach the Baron and two Farseers (since I'm really hoping you aren't giving up Fortune for the slight chance of rolling Invisibility) then I will spread out, dump shots into the unit from angles that you can't allocate to the 2++ re-rollable, and either wait for you to weaken yourself (if I have Warding) or for Fortune to be blocked (if I have a Rune Priest, Hood or Shadows) or the Baron's field to break (which will happen even with Fortune if someone dumps 6+ Venoms or similar per turn into the unit) and the unit to fold.

You now cannot block Fortune with a Hood. Rune priests still can and shadows doesnt get it every time with rune of witnessing and the reroll. I doubt we will be seeing 6+ venoms out there anymore. They die really quick to massed anything fire. The troops they carry also got nerfed a bit. If we do, its not so bad. The baron is 105 points. For all he brings he is worth it and more.

So the baron is a good attachment to the seer council. The council is no longer all powerful, it works differently
Moving forward:
Other things that Eldar can take from DE allies to make them more competitive or at least more fun.

Wyches: Now wyches got nerfed pretty hard in assault. Agonizers dont work against teq, overwatch will kill these girls before they reach base, cover is not 5+, FNP is now 5+, their transports now blow up and wound them on a 3+ not a 4+ and on and on and on.
Where they stayed the same, or got better is against vehicles. A squad of 5 with haywires is 60 points. They can throw haywires at tanks, they hit all tanks on 3+. Multiassaulting still gives you just one attack with a grenade. Haywires glance on 2+. 5 of them will put out 3.3 glances or better a turn. Slightly less against a dread but still enough to basically kill it before it can strike. If the vehicle didnt move they will get 5 glaces a turn. Throw in a venom and they are only 125 points. They will get shot to pieces by bolters, they wont beat much in assault. They can still pile in to turn the tide of an assault and they can still tie up a devistator squad for a turn or two. Great for 125 points. If you need more against a parking lot, 10 in a raider is 180 points.

Ravager : 3 BS4 dark lances for 105 points, 5+ cover while moving, how can i go wrong. Swap out the DL for disinitigrators and you have 9 str5 AP2 shots at BS4.
Skyfire removes the cover, so you might want to pay the 10 points for a 5++ which works against dangerous terrain and assault and cannot be taken away or you might want to pay 10 points to reduce enemy range by 6". The 5points for reroll any Ld based test can be nice for morale, MSS, and psykic tests, but dont make them too expensive. The AP2 shots are probably best againsts terminators and we all know terminators have a 3++ most of the time. Venoms might be a better overall anti infantry platform.

a few questions I have concerning the eldar/ dark eldar alliance

if an allied farseer attached to a beastmaster pack of 25 kyhmera, casts fortune on himself, do they get a reroll?

can banshees or scorpions jack an allied raider or venom from their brothers?

and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Arthas367 wrote:
can banshees or scorpions jack an allied raider or venom from their brothers?

Allies may never use other people's transports

kenshin620 wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:
can banshees or scorpions jack an allied raider or venom from their brothers?

Allies may never use other people's transports

thanks kenshin, any word on farseers and beastpacks concerning fortune, or other dark eldar units if the seer is attached for that matter?

Arthas367 wrote:
and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Now we're talkin.' You can certainly do that. They would be a mountain to move too, sitting on top of an objective. The wraithguard's toughness 6 protects the whole squad, as well as the shadow field. Give the archon a blaster and he can nuke vehicles and heavy infantry along with the wraithguard. Wraithguard aren't the most apt in close combat though, which is where these kind of death stars shine.

Which gives me an idea:

Karandras infiltrating with a gang of 5 or more Groteseques and an Aberration. They have stealth, feel no pain, fearless, move through cover, plasma grenades, toughness 5, a ton of wounds, and a 2+ save if Karandras is leading the charge (aka you place him in the front). They can't assault first turn, but by the 2nd they should be able to lay some beatdown city.

The prospects for Karandras seem pretty killer, as he bestows his mad skills (stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, fearless, and plasma grenades) on any unit he leads, including Dark Eldar. He just can't join Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers and the like. Infiltrating stealth Incubi with the scorpion master in charge? Twisted I know... Karandras and his pack of stealth warp scorpions (counts-as beastmasters)? No problem, he can hook it up for you. He is the boss.

Toranaga wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:
and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Now we're talkin.' You can certainly do that. They would be a mountain to move too, sitting on top of an objective. The wraithguard's toughness 6 protects the whole squad, as well as the shadow field. Give the archon a blaster and he can nuke vehicles and heavy infantry along with the wraithguard. Wraithguard aren't the most apt in close combat though, which is where these kind of death stars shine.

Which gives me an idea:

Karandras infiltrating with a gang of 5 or more Groteseques and an Aberration. They have stealth, feel no pain, fearless, move through cover, plasma grenades, toughness 5, a ton of wounds, and a 2+ save if Karandras is leading the charge (aka you place him in the front). They can't assault first turn, but by the 2nd they should be able to lay some beatdown city.

The prospects for Karandras seem pretty killer, as he bestows his mad skills (stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, fearless, and plasma grenades) on any unit he leads, including Dark Eldar. He just can't join Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers and the like. Infiltrating stealth Incubi with the scorpion master in charge? Twisted I know... Karandras and his pack of stealth warp scorpions (counts-as beastmasters)? No problem, he can hook it up for you. He is the boss.

You sir have just blessed me with an idea.....why walk wraithguard across the field when you can instead attach karandras, eldrad, and a shadowfield archon? infiltrate up, have archon and karandras stand side by side with their t6 and boss rerollable saves, allocate saves appropriately and fortune away.

Arthas367 wrote:

Toranaga wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:
and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Now we're talkin.' You can certainly do that. They would be a mountain to move too, sitting on top of an objective. The wraithguard's toughness 6 protects the whole squad, as well as the shadow field. Give the archon a blaster and he can nuke vehicles and heavy infantry along with the wraithguard. Wraithguard aren't the most apt in close combat though, which is where these kind of death stars shine.

Which gives me an idea:

Karandras infiltrating with a gang of 5 or more Groteseques and an Aberration. They have stealth, feel no pain, fearless, move through cover, plasma grenades, toughness 5, a ton of wounds, and a 2+ save if Karandras is leading the charge (aka you place him in the front). They can't assault first turn, but by the 2nd they should be able to lay some beatdown city.

The prospects for Karandras seem pretty killer, as he bestows his mad skills (stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, fearless, and plasma grenades) on any unit he leads, including Dark Eldar. He just can't join Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers and the like. Infiltrating stealth Incubi with the scorpion master in charge? Twisted I know... Karandras and his pack of stealth warp scorpions (counts-as beastmasters)? No problem, he can hook it up for you. He is the boss.

You sir have just blessed me with an idea.....why walk wraithguard across the field when you can instead attach karandras, eldrad, and a shadowfield archon? infiltrate up, have archon and karandras stand side by side with their t6 and boss rerollable saves, allocate saves appropriately and fortune away.

But here you stipulate that Karandras can give infiltrate to the squad he joined. I guess he loses this ability when the squad doesn't have it.

wuestenfux wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:

Toranaga wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:
and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Now we're talkin.' You can certainly do that. They would be a mountain to move too, sitting on top of an objective. The wraithguard's toughness 6 protects the whole squad, as well as the shadow field. Give the archon a blaster and he can nuke vehicles and heavy infantry along with the wraithguard. Wraithguard aren't the most apt in close combat though, which is where these kind of death stars shine.

Which gives me an idea:

Karandras infiltrating with a gang of 5 or more Groteseques and an Aberration. They have stealth, feel no pain, fearless, move through cover, plasma grenades, toughness 5, a ton of wounds, and a 2+ save if Karandras is leading the charge (aka you place him in the front). They can't assault first turn, but by the 2nd they should be able to lay some beatdown city.

The prospects for Karandras seem pretty killer, as he bestows his mad skills (stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, fearless, and plasma grenades) on any unit he leads, including Dark Eldar. He just can't join Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers and the like. Infiltrating stealth Incubi with the scorpion master in charge? Twisted I know... Karandras and his pack of stealth warp scorpions (counts-as beastmasters)? No problem, he can hook it up for you. He is the boss.

You sir have just blessed me with an idea.....why walk wraithguard across the field when you can instead attach karandras, eldrad, and a shadowfield archon? infiltrate up, have archon and karandras stand side by side with their t6 and boss rerollable saves, allocate saves appropriately and fortune away.

But here you stipulate that Karandras can give infiltrate to the squad he joined. I guess he loses this ability when the squad doesn't have it.

I suppose you have not read 6th? mainly the part that an Ic can confer infiltrate to his unit among many other usr's

Arthas367 wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:

Toranaga wrote:

Arthas367 wrote:
and to add to the discussion shadowfield archon heading a wraithguard, with eldrad and a divination seer,, making this unit a buff w****,

Now we're talkin.' You can certainly do that. They would be a mountain to move too, sitting on top of an objective. The wraithguard's toughness 6 protects the whole squad, as well as the shadow field. Give the archon a blaster and he can nuke vehicles and heavy infantry along with the wraithguard. Wraithguard aren't the most apt in close combat though, which is where these kind of death stars shine.

Which gives me an idea:

Karandras infiltrating with a gang of 5 or more Groteseques and an Aberration. They have stealth, feel no pain, fearless, move through cover, plasma grenades, toughness 5, a ton of wounds, and a 2+ save if Karandras is leading the charge (aka you place him in the front). They can't assault first turn, but by the 2nd they should be able to lay some beatdown city.

The prospects for Karandras seem pretty killer, as he bestows his mad skills (stealth, infiltrate, move through cover, fearless, and plasma grenades) on any unit he leads, including Dark Eldar. He just can't join Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers and the like. Infiltrating stealth Incubi with the scorpion master in charge? Twisted I know... Karandras and his pack of stealth warp scorpions (counts-as beastmasters)? No problem, he can hook it up for you. He is the boss.

You sir have just blessed me with an idea.....why walk wraithguard across the field when you can instead attach karandras, eldrad, and a shadowfield archon? infiltrate up, have archon and karandras stand side by side with their t6 and boss rerollable saves, allocate saves appropriately and fortune away.

But here you stipulate that Karandras can give infiltrate to the squad he joined. I guess he loses this ability when the squad doesn't have it.

I suppose you have not read 6th? mainly the part that an Ic can confer infiltrate to his unit among many other usr's

Thanks for pointing out. I have already read the book but not too deep.

So an IC can givie infiltrate to a squad? I thought it said You can not give the infiltrate to a squad that doesnt have it. Or atleast deploy with the squad.

its weird in way that an ic can fully give infiltrate to a unit, including outflank, but if a unit has infiltrate and ic does not, they can only bring the ic along for an outflank, and apparently transports can come along for the ride aswell. I believe its because of the wording regarding setup order. I can give a more rock solid wording and pg number when I'm home later, that is if someone does not beat me tool the punch

That's a weird rule but can provide some nasty combos outflanking in the enemy's backfield.

Karandras is too expensive for my liking so that I'll stay away from him.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461154.page, this guy has a thread concerning conferable usrs in 6th


Automatically Appended Next Post:
lol ultra karandras deathstar is a go, i dont see much standing upto his 7 str 8 pf atks on the charge, nice bonus is being able to get a full wraithguard unit in striking distance first turn, in 6th karandras eats the likes of draigo

I wouldn't really call wraithguard (even with 2++ from archon) a death star.
Hard to kill, sure, but the death star could put out a lot of nasty fire power.

Wraithguard are just too easy to neutralize. I'll stay 12" away (18" including your move) with a pre measure.

The infiltrate trick is cool, but then I'll just assault them with something.

For 35 points a model, how big do you intend your unit to be?
For every 2 wraith guard, I'd rather have a single war walker. Or a vyper w/ 2 shruiken cannon.

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait until the new book makes wraithguard good. They're awesome models. I am trying to buy as many metal ones on the cheap as I can.

jcress410 wrote:I wouldn't really call wraithguard (even with 2++ from archon) a death star.
Hard to kill, sure, but the death star could put out a lot of nasty fire power.

Wraithguard are just too easy to neutralize. I'll stay 12" away (18" including your move) with a pre measure.

The infiltrate trick is cool, but then I'll just assault them with something.

For 35 points a model, how big do you intend your unit to be?
For every 2 wraith guard, I'd rather have a single war walker. Or a vyper w/ 2 shruiken cannon.

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait until the new book makes wraithguard good. They're awesome models. I am trying to buy as many metal ones on the cheap as I can.

the gimmic really requires 10 35 point models for 350 points which makes them troops so they can score. Its a nice gimmic, but i think it will get eaten by TH/SS terminators at their current cost.