Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

40k-noob wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Dukal wrote:You are grossly misinterpreting RAW. While the disembarking is normally restricted to the movement phase, we have a specific ruling directing you to perform it after a vehicle is wrecked. This specific rule allows for the disembark move immediately upon the vehicle become wrecked, regardless of phase. Yes, this overrides the normal restrictions for when you may disembark - which is very clearly exactly what the BRB intends, and does not contradict itself.

RAW are not interpretations, they are what they are.

RAI are interpretations and well everyone has those.

the rule says immediately. the reference to the disembark rules is for the 'how' not the 'when'.

I could be wrong or you could be. Guess it will take an FAQ to sort it out.

This will not show up in a faq. faqs generally tackle questions people disagree on frequently.

You seem to think that on pg80 when it says to disembark in the usual manner(see page 79) to only use the rules on that page that are beneficial to your position.

No, I just think there are two rules there. One says when you're allowed to disembark, the other tells you how.
When the wreck result says "immediately disembark", it replaces the "when" with "right now" and tells you to use the "usual way" as the how.

jcress410 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

jcress410 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Dukal wrote:You are grossly misinterpreting RAW. While the disembarking is normally restricted to the movement phase, we have a specific ruling directing you to perform it after a vehicle is wrecked. This specific rule allows for the disembark move immediately upon the vehicle become wrecked, regardless of phase. Yes, this overrides the normal restrictions for when you may disembark - which is very clearly exactly what the BRB intends, and does not contradict itself.

RAW are not interpretations, they are what they are.

RAI are interpretations and well everyone has those.

the rule says immediately. the reference to the disembark rules is for the 'how' not the 'when'.

I could be wrong or you could be. Guess it will take an FAQ to sort it out.

This will not show up in a faq. faqs generally tackle questions people disagree on frequently.

You seem to think that on pg80 when it says to disembark in the usual manner(see page 79) to only use the rules on that page that are beneficial to your position.

No, I just think there are two rules there. One says when you're allowed to disembark, the other tells you how.
When the wreck result says "immediately disembark", it replaces the "when" with "right now" and tells you to use the "usual way" as the how.

But you seem to think that the "wrecked" disembark rule just overrides the section of the rules on 79 that are beneficial to your position.
Could it be that the "wrecked" disembark rule is only meant to allow for the placement of models in relationship to the "wrecked" vehicle and nothing else on page 79?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one...

But in regards to Assault vehicles (ork trukks, LR, etc)... they have a USR rule that grants them to assault after disembarking.

When you're forced to disembark due to it being wrecked... doesn't that "Assault USR" still apply?

whembly wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one...

But in regards to Assault vehicles (ork trukks, LR, etc)... they have a USR rule that grants them to assault after disembarking.

When you're forced to disembark due to it being wrecked... doesn't that "Assault USR" still apply?

Assault vehicle USR states they can assault on the turn they disembark, not on the next turn after they disembark. Since they lose their subsequent assault phase, which doesn't occur until the next turn, they don't get to assault if the vehicle was wrecked.

pg33.
"...Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed."

This USR to me is what allows a unit to assault after its transport is wrecked/destroyed.

At least... that's how I read it.

Otherwise... for an Ork/DE perspective... why take assault units in vehicles then?

Turn is defined as player turn. If you are wrecked on your opponent's turn, the assault vehicle rule says you will be able to assault on that turn, not your own turn (the next turn).

tetrisphreak wrote:

Should you and your group play in this manner, it would encourage rhinos and chimeras and other transports to actually !hope! to get destroyed in some manner by the opponent after rushing in.

The interpretation that you're arguing FOR (listed by OP) would "encourage rhinos and chimeras and other transports to actually !hope! to get destroyed", rather than wrecked. By the op, it plays like this:

Team A turn
Team A shoots Team B, eliminating a last hull point, WRECKING the vehicle
Team B disembarks
Team A chooses not to assault them.
End Team A turn

Team B Turn
That squad may now move as normal, may run/shoot (count as moving), but CAN NOT assault.

Same scenario, except with an EXPLODES result
Team A turn
Team A shoots Team B, EXPLODING the vehicle.
Team B disembarks
Team A chooses not to assault

Team B Turn
That squad may move as normal, may shoot as normal, and CAN assault as normal.

thephish wrote:Even if it is argued that the op is correct, for simplicity's sake, our group would probably continue to play that the models may assault in their following player turn.

My statement earlier means that, for simplicity's sake, regardless of scenario, the squad would be able to act as normal (assuming no pins) the following turn and would not be governed by 'how' they lost their transport. RAI maybe, but it makes no sense that the worse scenario (explodes) should allow assaulting when the lesser of the two (wrecked) does not. The vehicle EXPLODED, smoke, fire, blood, guts, flying debris, flying bodies, confusion, bewilderment, models take damage, everything around it takes damage, but we 'placed' the models and didn't disembark them VS OH... we got shot again, flat tire, everybody pile out, ZOMFG, the pain, the suffering, the carnage, I'm not charging that guy, he looks mean and shot my ride. RAI win imo??

It just has to do with the fact that "turn" is defined very explicitly in the rulebook as player turn.

Effect of damage on passengers, wrecked states: "the passengers must immediately disembark in the usual manner"

Disembarking states: "after disembarking models... cannot declare a charge in their subsequent assault phase"

So in the case of getting a vehicle wrecked in your *opponent's* turn, their subsequent assault phase is your next assault phase.

Assault vehicle states: "Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed."

Game Turns and Player Turns states: "Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn.'"

So, while the assault vehicle allows you to assault on the *player* turn that the vehicle is destroyed, it does nothing to help you if the vehicle is destroyed in your opponent's turn.

Also, @Phish: the turn after your transport is wrecked, you may *not* "shoot as normal", you shoot counting as having moved.

imweasel wrote:

whembly wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one...

But in regards to Assault vehicles (ork trukks, LR, etc)... they have a USR rule that grants them to assault after disembarking.

When you're forced to disembark due to it being wrecked... doesn't that "Assault USR" still apply?

Assault vehicle USR states they can assault on the turn they disembark, not on the next turn after they disembark. Since they lose their subsequent assault phase, which doesn't occur until the next turn, they don't get to assault if the vehicle was wrecked.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't compute.

The way I read it, it's either one of these interpretations:
1) Due to the Assault USR... if their vehicle is wrecked/destroyed, they're still allowed to assault in their subsequent assault phase (same way it worked in 5th edition).

2) This is hilarious... one guy stated that the USR states " disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed". So... if you wreck his assault vehicle on the opponent shooting's phase, then HE can assault in his opponent's turn.

3) Irregardless of the Assault USR... if you're wrecked (not destoyed), your next turn, you cannot assault.

Here's my opinion:
1) This is how we'll play.

2) Anyone trying to pull this by you... throw 'em in the squig pit!

3) This is the argument that the OP and others are stating... There's a conflict of rules... on the one hand, the new BRB rule for forcibly disembarking prevents you from assaulting in their subsequent assault phase. But, then, there's the ASSAULT USR rule that grants your the ability to do so... how do you reconcile both rules?

edited for spelling...

Because the assault vehicle rule only allows you to assault "the turn" that you disembark. If you disembark in the opponents turn you lose that.

pretre wrote:Turn is defined as player turn. If you are wrecked on your opponent's turn, the assault vehicle rule says you will be able to assault on that turn, not your own turn (the next turn).

Whaaaat?

You saying that a battlewagon full of boyz is bearing down your army, well within charging distance as well... and YOU manage to wreck the BW in your shooting phase... are you saying that those boyz get to ASSAULT in YOUR assault phase? But, then, in MY next assault phase, those same boyz CANNOT initate an assault.

Whaaat?

(whembly is a very confused git)

willydstyle wrote:Because the assault vehicle rule only allows you to assault "the turn" that you disembark. If you disembark in the opponents turn you lose that.

I agree with this.

@Whembly: Yeah, the Assault USR does not grant you the ability to assault in the subsequent assault phase, it grants you the ability to assault in the turn you disembark.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:

pretre wrote:Turn is defined as player turn. If you are wrecked on your opponent's turn, the assault vehicle rule says you will be able to assault on that turn, not your own turn (the next turn).

Whaaaat?

You saying that a battlewagon full of boyz is bearing down your army, well within charging distance as well... and YOU manage to wreck the BW in your shooting phase... are you saying that those boyz get to ASSAULT in YOUR assault phase? But, then, in MY next assault phase, those same boyz CANNOT initate an assault.

Whaaat?

(whembly is a very confused git)

No. They have no permission to assault in the opponent's turn, so since the Assault USR says that turn, they lose any ability to assault in their own turn.

pretre wrote:Turn is defined as player turn. If you are wrecked on your opponent's turn, the assault vehicle rule says you will be able to assault on that turn, not your own turn (the next turn).

You can't assault on your opponents turn, b/c it's your opponents turn, not yours.

They would lose their assault altogether if it was wrecked, same as everyone else by this interpretation.... unless of course, assault vehicles now let you assault in your opponents turn, but only if they're vehicle was wrecked or exploded... RAW and all that.

ninja'd...

People misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying you could assault in your opponent's turn. I was saying that the Assault USR only grants permission for the turn it is wrecked in, not subsequent turns.

pretre wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Because the assault vehicle rule only allows you to assault "the turn" that you disembark. If you disembark in the opponents turn you lose that.

I agree with this.

@Whembly: Yeah, the Assault USR does not grant you the ability to assault in the subsequent assault phase, it grants you the ability to assault in the turn you disembark.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:

pretre wrote:Turn is defined as player turn. If you are wrecked on your opponent's turn, the assault vehicle rule says you will be able to assault on that turn, not your own turn (the next turn).

Whaaaat?

You saying that a battlewagon full of boyz is bearing down your army, well within charging distance as well... and YOU manage to wreck the BW in your shooting phase... are you saying that those boyz get to ASSAULT in YOUR assault phase? But, then, in MY next assault phase, those same boyz CANNOT initate an assault.

Whaaat?

(whembly is a very confused git)

No. They have no permission to assault in the opponent's turn, so since the Assault USR says that turn, they lose any ability to assault in their own turn.

Then... having said ALL this...

Why take assault vehicles at all? This is an absolute nerf to light assault vehicles (trukk, raiders, venoms).

I think it obvious that it's a poorly written rule.

I wonder what's the TO's and INAT crew's point of view on this...

willydstyle wrote:Also, @Phish: the turn after your transport is wrecked, you may *not* "shoot as normal", you shoot counting as having moved.

whoops, I'll correct that.

whembly wrote:Then... having said ALL this...

Why take assault vehicles at all? This is an absolute nerf to light assault vehicles (trukk, raiders, venoms).

I think it obvious that it's a poorly written rule.

I wonder what's the TO's and INAT crew's point of view on this...

All vehicles were nerfed with respect to assaulting after a disembark.

Assault vehicles were as well, but they're still better than normal vehicles.

whembly wrote:Why take assault vehicles at all? This is an absolute nerf to light assault vehicles (trukk, raiders, venoms).

I think it obvious that it's a poorly written rule.

I wonder what's the TO's and INAT crew's point of view on this...

Because, even with the wrecked problem, they are still better than normal vehicles. I would kill for an assault vehicle in my SoB army.

pretre wrote:

whembly wrote:Why take assault vehicles at all? This is an absolute nerf to light assault vehicles (trukk, raiders, venoms).

I think it obvious that it's a poorly written rule.

I wonder what's the TO's and INAT crew's point of view on this...

Because, even with the wrecked problem, they are still better than normal vehicles. I would kill for an assault vehicle in my SoB army.

hrmph... good point.

It's just that I'm used to assaultly Orks (which is what they do) and assaulty DE armies (looks like I'm back to darklight spam... boring) that relies on delivering them to the bad guys and most of the time, they're blown out of their vehicles before getting close to bad guys.

Ugh...

I imagine there is some shock involved in a vehicle exploding around you or having to quickly disembark from a wrecked transport that may account for some of the problems.

40k-noob wrote:

But you seem to think that the "wrecked" disembark rule just overrides the section of the rules on 79 that are beneficial to your position.
Could it be that the "wrecked" disembark rule is only meant to allow for the placement of models in relationship to the "wrecked" vehicle and nothing else on page 79?

No, it says immediately.

My "position" is just that "immediately" overrides the "in the movement phase" part of the disembarkation rules, because it's the only part of the rules that conflict.

Just like the 3" disembark overrides the normal 6", "immediately" overrides the normal conditions on when to disembark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whembly wrote:

pretre wrote:

whembly wrote:Why take assault vehicles at all? This is an absolute nerf to light assault vehicles (trukk, raiders, venoms).

I think it obvious that it's a poorly written rule.

I wonder what's the TO's and INAT crew's point of view on this...

Because, even with the wrecked problem, they are still better than normal vehicles. I would kill for an assault vehicle in my SoB army.

hrmph... good point.

It's just that I'm used to assaultly Orks (which is what they do) and assaulty DE armies (looks like I'm back to darklight spam... boring) that relies on delivering them to the bad guys and most of the time, they're blown out of their vehicles before getting close to bad guys.

Ugh...

trukks are just death traps now.

12 dudes in a trukk. It wrecks in your opponent's shooting phase.
It ramshackels. 2/3 of the time it explodes. In 6e, the explosion wounds on 4s. 6 wounds average, 1 save.
5 dudes disembark.
Your opponent shoots at them after they disembark, focus firing on the ones who aren't in cover.
At this point, the squad is probably running off the board. If it isn't there might be a couple dudes left.

If the truck wrecks instead, and the assault ruling is as above, they get your movement phase to hide, then shoot, then sit.
Your opponent gets another shooting phase. Shoots the squad.
Now the squad is running off the board.
If it isn't, on your turn you have like two orks to go try to cause mayhem. Awesome.

Basically if your opponent shoots and destroys a transport holding assault-oriented troops, then the models inside are going to be dazed and confused.

Either this was intentional which means you will need to make sure you take cover and do shooting actions for a whole turn... or it was unintentional and they need to FAQ it but most people will probably attempt to play it like 5th.

Sounds like this is a large game-wide issue people need to address for events along with power weapon profiles and challenge wound overflow. Discuss with opponents pre-game.

3. Can a unit in a transport vehicle assault the turn after it is destroyed?
- A unit that is in a destroyed vehicle does not disembark, and so would be unrestricted in their subsequent assault phase.

Who say you, proud warriors?

In the back of the book there are tables for the different damage results. Under explodes, it says passengers have to "disembark".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the real oversight by GW - or maybe it was intentional, who knows - the real oversight is the wording of the disembark rules.

"may not assault in the subsequent assault phase."

I could have written that with the intent of meaning you can assault if you just moved the vehicle and got out, but if the opponent blows you up in his shooting phase it's ok for you to assault. Then some other dude wrote the rules for what happens when vehicles are destroyed, and being lazy, just referred to the 'disembark' rules I wrote without reading them himself. The more I think about it, the more I am sure this is what happened. But GW is probably content to charge us all $75 for these s ily written rules and let us all sort it out. Yay!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the USR states " disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so, even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed". So... if you wreck his assault vehicle on the opponent shooting's phase, then HE can assault in his opponent's turn.

No. It's meant that if you happen to destroy your assault vehicle on your own turn (think dangerous terrain), you can still assault in the assault phase of your turn.

but the kicker is that it deosn't say "the" subsequent assault phase, it says "their" subsequent assault phase. While I think GW needs to put like a "glossary of definitions and terms" in the book to really define what things like "their subsequent" means in clear game terms, IMO when the possessive pronoun is used it is referring to the controlling player's phase, not those on his opponent's turn.

As soon as you begin your player turn, the unit that disembarked from the Wrecked Vehicle is no longer "Disembarking". They get a normal movement, shooting, and assault phase unless they were pinned earlier.

The "Disembark" rules that are being quoted are written in context of the active player's turn. It is a fallacy to apply the same terminology to a Wrecked Disembarkment, which is something that will usually happen on your opponent's turn.

Murrdox wrote:As soon as you begin your player turn, the unit that disembarked from the Wrecked Vehicle is no longer "Disembarking". They get a normal movement, shooting, and assault phase unless they were pinned earlier.

The "Disembark" rules that are being quoted are written in context of the active player's turn. It is a fallacy to apply the same terminology to a Wrecked Disembarkment, which is something that will usually happen on your opponent's turn.

Rule?
I agree that make sense, but there are some pretty good reasons on this thread why you're incorrect.
(esp. "their subsequent" not "the subsequent")

This was already discussed a while ago. The thread is kinda dead but all the rules are in one place and nicely explained:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459960.page

Yup. Thanks Macok. I didn't like it then either. But I'm pretty sure the "Can't assault on your next turn" people have the rules to back it up this time.

Gah...that sucks.

Well, let me ask you all a question: can a unit who disembarks from a vehicle that wrecked shoot as normal in their Shooting phase or do they shoot counting as having moved?

Wow this is issue seems to be bigger than I thought.

I will definitely have to discuss with any opponent pre-game to see if we can come to an understanding.

As such that will require that I keep two lists handy depending on the what is agreed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Antivas wrote:Well, let me ask you all a question: can a unit who disembarks from a vehicle that wrecked shoot as normal in their Shooting phase or do they shoot counting as having moved?

According to the "you cant assault" side, then even if in your turn you do NOT move, then you still fire as having moved!!!

Tah Dah!!! Physics GW Style!!