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Overall, the way I see it concerning MECH lists, the heavy tanks got easier to kill, with the lighter, transport vehicles becoming a bit more sturdy and harder to kill. Reason is that in 5th, someone could glance a Chimera and then destroy it if they rolled high enough with the right weapon, but now that you need to glance a Chimera 3x times now just to destroy it, it makes it a lot more worth its points. Heavy Tanks that where hard to kill now can be glanced to death, meaning that Land Raiders and ohter 14 armor vehicles are not as scary as they used to be. Its going to take some time to get used to but overall I like the new changes to the Vehicle damage chart.

As for running a MECH list, the IG is still one of the armies that can run one of the most effective MECH lists, as Chimeras got better survivability, making them very good weapon platforms and even better, great protection for your infantry inside of them. The only other armies I have seen run an effective MECH ist at this time are Space Marines (obviously(, as Razorbacks and Rhinos are still good choices for there points, and Dark Eldar are still a very nasty and can run one of the is not the best MECH list in 40k.

MECH lists are still very effective, the only thing they have to be aware of is Necrons, as they are the ultimate Anti-Mech list with there Gauss weapons.

Some static foot gun lines got a major boost, namely long fangs, in 6th ed.

I think transports got hosed. Its not the fact that transports got easier to destroy, its all of the penalties that got trumped up on the passengers.

You cant score while in one. Starting on turn five, you will be fighting on foot.

Transport got wrecked? No assaults for you.

Transport got stunned/shaken? No shooting for you even if you get out. And no assaults.

Transport got both? Now you dont have a ride, cant shoot or assault.

I think russes got better. I think most gun platform vehicles broke even, barely.

I think ork nob bikers are very scary now.

Necrons laugh at all mech armies.

Just some ramblings. I will make a more in depth response when I get home tonight.

Nids now laught at armour (for once in our existance). Between high strength troops (with AG), being able to hit on 3+ in CC, Rending and MCs and FMCs the hive guard is no longer a must have (Keep an eye out for the new flavor of the Codex, the Tervifex).

Flyers are a bit diffrent, but we still have ways of killing them (not as many as most, but we have them). If it wasn't for the changes to Outflank and Infiltrate it would be the Golden Age of the Tyranid.

Gloomfang wrote:Nids now laught at armour (for once in our existance). Between high strength troops (with AG), being able to hit on 3+ in CC, Rending and MCs and FMCs the hive guard is no longer a must have (Keep an eye out for the new flavor of the Codex, the Tervifex).

Flyers are a bit diffrent, but we still have ways of killing them (not as many as most, but we have them). If it wasn't for the changes to Outflank and Infiltrate it would be the Golden Age of the Tyranid.

Well, you do have harpies, which I guess could work.
What's its loadout? Heavy venom cannon? Or is that a blast weapon?

Lothar wrote:

pretre wrote:I mean, don't let me break up the pity parade, but foot guard got better not worse.

You are kidding, right?

What makes foot guard better? The boys are dying A LOT faster then before (new cover). They have the same firepower. They will have bigger problems with CC (it is way easier to kill a commissar than it was in 5th edition). What makes foot guard better? Enlighten me...

Snap Fire, Rapid Fire, Look Out Sir, Power Weapon options for Higher Strength, Glances kill vehicles faster with HP, Vehicle can't contest objectives, Allies who can give blobs fearless and FNP, etc so on.

Worse cover is only one part of the deal.

imweasel wrote:Some static foot gun lines got a major boost, namely long fangs, in 6th ed.

I think transports got hosed. Its not the fact that transports got easier to destroy, its all of the penalties that got trumped up on the passengers.

You cant score while in one. Starting on turn five, you will be fighting on foot.

Transport got wrecked? No assaults for you.

Transport got stunned/shaken? No shooting for you even if you get out. And no assaults.

Transport got both? Now you dont have a ride, cant shoot or assault.

I think russes got better. I think most gun platform vehicles broke even, barely.

I think ork nob bikers are very scary now.

Necrons laugh at all mech armies.

Just some ramblings. I will make a more in depth response when I get home tonight.

Agree with you about MECH armies having to watch out for Necrons, however I disagree with you that ALL transports got worse. Guard Chimeras got a lot better in this edition, as now they have a chance to actually get a few turns of extra movement and shooting, plus in the case of IG, if they get in assult they are dead anyways so I am perfectly fine of staying in my Chimera until the final turn to jump out and steal my opponents objective. Granted Im sure some armies arent as effective as they used to be MECH-wise, but some armies (Dark Eldar and IG in particular) can still run effective MECH lists.

Also on a side note, foot IG can still be really good, especially with the Orders they can give to there troops Creed just got a whole lot scarier this edtion, as his orders and his range with Krell make foot IG armies just nasty.

labmouse42 wrote:You were probably thinking of 12" away.

ah, oops.

labmouse42 wrote:Remember, the guard blob also packs 5 PGs and 5 ACs. If you have cast divination on the blob, and FRFSRF on the blob, you can expect to clear out those 10 MEQ pretty quickly.

Now you're comparing at LEAST 530 points of guard against 170 points of space marines. Hardly seems fair.

pretre wrote:Yeah and they are something like 20-30" long, so you can literally just set it up in front of your deployment zone and give pretty much your whole army a 4+ cover save.

But aegises giving your entire army cover help foot and mech lists equally. Actually, it's slightly in favor of mech as they have a smaller footprint, which means you can set up the aegis in more of a U-shape.

pretre wrote:I mean, don't let me break up the pity parade, but foot guard got better not worse. Snap Fire, Rapid Fire, Look Out Sir, Power Weapon options for Higher Strength, Glances kill vehicles faster with HP, Vehicle can't contest objectives, Allies who can give blobs fearless and FNP, etc so on.

Worse cover is only one part of the deal.

It is only part of the deal. Here's the comprehensive reasons foot guard are done.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, infantry can now fire and move heavy weapons and RF weapons to their full effect (with a Snap shot penalty for the heavy weapons), granting a greater deal of mobility.

The problem, of course, is that it's snap fire. Heavy weapons excel in the beginning of the game, which means you're not going to want to waste that valuable time snap firing when you could just fire regularly to better effect. Snap firing may be more useful later on as targets become scarcer, but that still requires the squad to survive that long, which is now a more difficult feat to achieve.

imweasel wrote:You cant score while in one.

This is probably the one real disadvantage that mech lists, but you'll have to forgive me if I think it's one that's deserved. Scoring from inside transports never seemed all that fair.

Another thing I'd like to note is that mech lists, at least for guard, just got better against assault.

Think about it. You shoot at the guys who are assaulting. Then you shoot overwatch when they assault your transport. Then you shoot them again. Then you overwatch them AGAIN when they assault the guys inside. If you're talking about plasma vets in a chimera, this is a ludicrous amount of firepower levied against assaulters.

If they were Grey Knights the cost would go up and even out.

Cost-effectiveness, hmm..

The +2 for AP1 (melta, broadsides railguns, reaver heat lances) make a big difference to low armour T3 GEQ armies in transports, because those S4 hits are going to hurt badly.

The people who say that melta finishes off transports in 6ed on a 4+ pen just like in 5ed clearly do not field GEQ armies. That significantly increased chance of an Explode result makes a very big difference to some of us.

I find it a bit unbelievable that it took until page 2 before someone brought up scoring units.

Vehicles can't even contest anymore, that is SO HUGE. And 5/6 of the book missions are objective based.

Yes the shooting phase got more violent (for tanks as well as infantry). But the assault phase got more forgiving for most infantry, and utterly crippled tanks.

And to top it all off all the points you spend on tanks... completely useless for grabbing objectives.

I do think MSU shooting/mech armies are still good (with a number of buffs and nerfs). But saying that infantry armies are dead is a massive overstatement.

Ailaros wrote:But aegises giving your entire army cover help foot and mech lists equally. Actually, it's slightly in favor of mech as they have a smaller footprint, which means you can set up the aegis in more of a U-shape.

Except it is easier to hide infantry behind the aegis and infantry can g2g for a 2+ cover behind an aegis and then get ordered to get back in the fight.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, you do have harpies, which I guess could work.
What's its loadout? Heavy venom cannon? Or is that a blast weapon?

FMCs do not have skyfire for some stupid reason. And both of the harpy's main guns at blast weapons (HVC and SC). Stinger salvo is thing that can hit a flyer on it and it is S5 without Skyfire. Oh and on a harpy Vector Strike is a S5 as well and can't even glance AV12.

We do have more psykers then you can shake a stick at and if you come at us with Mech we will OM you to death. I dropped an entire Valk squadrion the turn it came into play with OM. Nids now LOVE squadrons.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Vehicles can't even contest anymore, that is SO HUGE. And 5/6 of the book missions are objective based.

But it doesn't matter until the end of the game. The relative advantage of mech lists turns 1-6 more than outweigh the problem of having to get someone out at the last minute to contest something.

That's the whole point of mech lists, really. You kill off everything seriously threatening of your opponents by turn 3. This just became a much easier feat to accomplish.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:But the assault phase got more forgiving for most infantry, and utterly crippled tanks.

What? Assault got more forgiving? Where is this coming from?

As for tanks, they were already terrible against strong units at close ranges. This hasn't changed all that much. "Crippled" implied that they were good and now they're not.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: But saying that infantry armies are dead is a massive overstatement.

So, I'll repeat again why power blobs are dead, but things in there aren't exclusive to power blobs. In the case of a slugga green tide, they now have to deal with fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch. And that's including cover getting worse, and wound allocation killing you out of assault range, as well as things in the linked article.

Shooty foot lists don't suffer from several of these problems, but now we're talking about a static foot gunline, which is a pretty weak place to start from.

Gloomfang wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, you do have harpies, which I guess could work.
What's its loadout? Heavy venom cannon? Or is that a blast weapon?

FMCs do not have skyfire for some stupid reason. And both of the harpy's main guns at blast weapons (HVC and SC). Stinger salvo is thing that can hit a flyer on it and it is S5 without Skyfire. Oh and on a harpy Vector Strike is a S5 as well and can't even glance AV12.

We do have more psykers then you can shake a stick at and if you come at us with Mech we will OM you to death. I dropped an entire Valk squadrion the turn it came into play with OM. Nids now LOVE squadrons.

Are you sure? I don't have my book with me to check, but I'm sure swooping FMC can get skyfire.
Sucks that their only decent weapons can't even hit flyers at all though.

So far, I care to disagree with the OP. I usually play meched guard. In 6th edition, my 3/4 sides of AV10 on the chimeras mean bolters can take them out with three 6's. I decided that it is time to run infantry guard. The list that I have been playing ended up being more of a hybrid list. 2 blobs, 2 CCS, 2 Lord Commissars, 2 vet squads in chimeras, 3 vendettas, PBS in chimera, and a hydra. All of my vehicles got glanced to death right off of the bat. To me it seems that the foot elements improved to the point where they were more effective than my vehicles. To me it seems that the key to 6th edition is mobility, I for one will be putting my investments into bikers for the marines and fliers to the guard. I don't plan on running mech lists any more. Just my .02

pretre wrote:Snap Fire, Rapid Fire, Look Out Sir, Power Weapon options for Higher Strength, Glances kill vehicles faster with HP, Vehicle can't contest objectives, Allies who can give blobs fearless and FNP, etc so on.Worse cover is only one part of the deal.

Look out sir? Oh, you are kidding again. My question was, why are the blobs better? Look out sir is much worse for character survival then in 5th edition, where your characters and all other models had in fact automatic look out. Look out sir is nothing what makes blobs better.

Power weapons with higher STR? Agree with this. Axes are better then sword for guard.

Rapid fire? Not for power blob. Power blob is trying to get to the enemy, into CC. Power blob is using Move, move, move! order, it is not firing very often (I only fired with power blob if some vehicle was close enough for meltas, because meltas could have been in front of the blob, which is not possible now). On the other hand, Gunline blob is sitting somewhere (probably around victory point) and not moving. You could fire its rapid fire the same way as in 5th edition. No particular bonus here.

Glances kill vehicles faster? This is not generaly true. It is true when it comes to vehicles with good AV. Vehicles with poor AV (Rhinos) or poor AV and open topped (vypers, scout sentinels, dark eldar stuff) survive more than before and are more killier - no stunned or shaken results on glance hit, no imobilization, no weapon destroyed. More of this, transports can now flat out if they want. All of them. That means they can be 50% faster if they want to (12" in 5th edition, 18" in 6th edition).

Vehicles cant contest? Agree with this. Especially when playing against eldar and invulnerable holo Falcon.

Allies can give blob fearless and FNP? Fearless was not necessary in 5th edition. You had commissars with stubborn and reroll morale. FNP is nice bonus, but this 5+ save will not make it for 4+ cover we have lost. Yes, I had 4+ cover almost all the time back in 5th edition. Now, I usually dont have ANY cover save and sometimes 5+ cover save. Only Static blob behind Aegis can have its 4+. But it costs you. And the characters from allies also costs you. You are paying alot point for those bonuses and they are not as good as the bonuses which blob had in 5th edition (cover and wound allocation).

I played power blobs (and sometimes shooty blobs) in 5th edition all the time. They are a LOT worse now. You should try a few games with them and I am certain you will think this also. Try a power blob list with power axes and Jacob and you will see it is not so strong as power blob with power swords and commissar in 5th edition...not to mention you can upgrade only one blob with that Jacob fella.

Re: your article.
Cover is now harder to get.
You're actually wrong in this part. If you're shooting between models in another unit, you get cover for the unit behind.

Cover saves are avoidable.
Sure.

Cover is now worse.
You're wrong again here. Defense Lines and Ruins both give 4+. Defense lines give a 2+ G2G. Area terrain gives +2 G2G.

Wound allocation is different.
Sure, you can still hide your guys in the middle of 40 other guys.

Sniper weapons and characters get precise shot.
And you got LOS. They got a 15% chance to get precise shot, which then has to wound and then you get a 50% chance to avoid it.

You have to bunch up
This is just wrong. You don't have to bunch up to avoid precise or wound allocation, you just have to arrange models so your Comm and Sgts aren't hanging out in the wind.

Overwatch.
This works both ways. 50 guys with lasguns can actually do some damage.

Random assault ranges.
Same for everyone. Since we don't have fleet, it averages out to a better charge for guard.

Challenges.
You can give them whoever you want to take the challenge or just pull them out of combat and decline.

Wound allocation... again.
If you have 40 guys who can die, chances are they are closest and die first. Plus you can LOS still.

Precise strike.
Still LOS.

Power weapons just got worse.
And better. Bonus Strength for someone who strikes last anyways? time to model Power Axes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lothar wrote:Rapid fire? Not for power blob. Power blob is trying to get to the enemy, into CC. Power blob is using Move, move, move! order, it is not firing very often (I only fired with power blob if some vehicle was close enough for meltas, because meltas could have been in front of the blob, which is not possible now). On the other hand, Gunline blob is sitting somewhere (probably around victory point) and not moving. You could fire its rapid fire the same way as in 5th edition. No particular bonus here.

Instead of running now, you can move 6 and fire to full effect at full range. That's a big deal.

Glances kill vehicles faster? This is not generaly true. It is true when it comes to vehicles with good AV. Vehicles with poor AV (Rhinos) or poor AV and open topped (vypers, scout sentinels, dark eldar stuff) survive more then before and are more killier - no stunned or shaken results on glance hit, no imobilization, no weapon destroyed. More of this, transports can now flat out if they want. All of them. That means they can be 50% faster if they want to (12" in 5th edition, 18" in 6th edition).

This is just wrong. Hull Points are a nerf to vehicle survivability.

Allies can give blob fearless and FNP? Fearless was not necessary in 5th edition. You had commissars with stubborn and reroll morale. FNP is nice bonus, but this 5+ save will not make it for 4+ cover we have lost. Yes, I had 4+ cover almost all the time back in 5th edition. Now, I usually dont have ANY cover save and sometimes 5+ cover save. Only Static blob behind Aegis can have its 4+. But it costs you. And the characters from allies also costs you. You are paying alot point for those bonuses and they are not as good as the bonuses which blob had in 5th edition (cover and wound allocation).

If you put the aegis on the halfway point of the board, that's a lot of cover for your movement. 90 points for either fearless or FNP isn't a lot. Add in a sisters squad for 140 points and you got better.

I played power blobs (and sometimes shooty blobs) in 5th edition all the time. They are a LOT worse now. You should try a few games with them and I am certain you will things this also. Try a power blob list with power axes and Jacob and you will see it is not so strong as power blob with power swords and commissar in 5th edition...not to mention you can upgrade only one blob with that Jacob fella.

Jacob gives +1 Att, FNP and rerolls on the charge. That's a pretty good deal.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Are you sure? I don't have my book with me to check, but I'm sure swooping FMC can get skyfire.
Sucks that their only decent weapons can't even hit flyers at all though.

Positive. Over at the Hive it was one of the things we went "This can't be right, can it?"

Right now antiflyer for Nids are:

1) MCs with TL Devourers. 6 S6 hits with rerolls is about as good as it gets for Codex shooting.

2) Hive guard with PE. Small chance of hitting, good chance of Pening.

3) Pyskers: Spamming OM is not as hard as it sounds. On TK there are only 5 powers most can roll. Standard Nid list (Not even a Spam list) has about 6-9 Psykers with between 12-18 Powers. If we go all TK that is 2-4 OMs. If we want to spam them we can get over 30 Powers and get 5-6.

4) Gun Emplacements: Yes we can use the Quad-gun AND Icaruss LC and manually fire them. People misread our FAQ and the rulebook. Can't manually fire Emplaced Weapons folks, not Gun Emplacements. Read the rules. (Pet Peeve)

5) Flying HT vector strike: Not bad. Dakka Flyrant now real common. 1 Vector Strike followed by TL Devourer to the rear armour.

Mech isn't king in 6th. Heck flyers aren't even king. There is just to much stuff to counter everything else now. I guess that is balance.

Ailaros wrote:
Foot lists have gone from being roughly equal to mech lists to being only borderline viable, for lots of reasons, but the main one is cover. Foot lists rely a lot on cover, which just got a lot worse:

- Cover now only applies to models, not to units. This means that you literally have to have something between whoever is getting shot and whoever is doing the shooting.

- Even if you mostly do this, your opponent can now use focus fire to pick out the models that don't have a cover save.

- Cover is now only 5+, not that it matters if you're not getting a save in the first place.

You can now bring lots of cover placed by yourself for only 50pts. It even gives a boost to gone-to-ground. Also, have you actually played any 6th ed games? In my experience cover did not really get that much worse, especially because of the aegis line. For MC's and vehicles, cover is easier to get than before, a big boost to static firepower vehicles like artillery, but not that great for parking lots.

Ailaros wrote:
And then, of course, 6th ed crucified assault-based armies. Some units can still be good in assault (like certain HQ's and retinues), but assault based armies like power blobs and slugga tides are comprehensively finished. As basically everyone who wanted to play an assault army played a foot army, and assault armies are done, it necessarily will make foot lists in general much rarer.

Shooty foot lists obviously aren't so poorly off, but they're now going to be spending most of their time as a static gunline hiding in cover (especially since you can now buy them cover), which is bad given all the new objectives missions we got.

Offensive assault has gotten generally worse for many units, but neither orks or guard have to rely on offensive assault from unsuited units. Shoota boys are now much better than before because of fearless changes, powerblobs got better because of S4 power weapons, allies, IC changes, transfering special rules and new spells. You will generally also be able to hold 2-3 objectives in your own zone, so defensive infantry works fine.

Ailaros wrote:
What about mech lists? Yes, transports got easier to kill, but it's still not bad relative to foot lists. The main reason for this is cover. While foot lists can now get dismantled piecemeal, if a transport is in cover 100% of the unit is in cover, defying the bane of foot lists. Moreover, you now only need 25% obstruction in order to gain a cover save, which means that while foot lists are now struggling to get cover, mech lists just got a boost here. Also, I'd note that because things like bolters and heavy bolters just got a fair bit better, the fact that transports makes the guys inside immune to small arms fire, actually matters. Even for marines, now that Ap will be sometimes used.

Moreover, you've got to look at mech killing power. While transports just got a little glassier, they also just got a little hammerier. Mech lists have always relied on delivering a strong alpha strike, and heavy weapons just got better across the board. Furthermore, while you can now be glanced to death, you no longer suffer ill effects from glances. You now no longer need to worry about shaken or stunned results stopping your firepower. This means that you're more likely to kill those things that threaten the vehicles, improving their survivability. While foot lists just lost, mech lists both lost and gained.

Parking lots are doomed to full strength blasts, doom rays, and insane vulnerablity to close combat. Necrons pretty much shut down 5th ed mech lists by themselves. Vehicles are still usable, but not in the same way as in 5th.

Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, many foot commanders are going to have to seriously rework how they play, and adapt to being made weaker over all. Static foot gunlines haven't been all that particularly powerful since the eclipse of 3rd ed by 4th, but they're now what dedicated foot commanders are going to have to figure out how to work with. Likely, we're going to see a lot of foot commanders go back to the hybrid lists of 4th ed, wherein there was a foot component more from a desire to not have to spend points on transports than anything else.

Everyone is going to have to adapt. Saying that the changes to cover = death of everything but mech is silly. Play some games, the cover changes aren't really that groundbreaking, other changes like flyers, allies and psychic powers have a much bigger impact on play from my 6th ed experience (which is with non-mech lists).

pretre wrote:Cover is now harder to get.
You're actually wrong in this part. If you're shooting between models in another unit, you get cover for the unit behind.

But now the unit doesn't get cover, only the models do. That means that shots taken from oblique angles are now much, much more likely to have at least a couple models out of cover every time they shoot (rather than the roughly 0).

pretre wrote:You're wrong again here. Defense Lines and Ruins both give 4+. Defense lines give a 2+ G2G. Area terrain gives +2 G2G.

And then you're neither moving nor shooting. It does ameliorate some of the problems of holding objectives, but not all of them, and in the meantime you've got to make the squad worthless.

pretre wrote:Wound allocation is different.
Sure, you can still hide your guys in the middle of 40 other guys.

Not against barrage weapons. Or against anything with precise shot (I don't get where this idea that characters will always be out of LOS is coming from).

It also still has the problem of getting your stuff killed out of assault.

And it also comes with new problems against deepstrikers.

This is still a very serious issue. One that only effects foot lists.

pretre wrote: you just have to arrange models so your Comm and Sgts aren't hanging out in the wind.

That's to stop them getting picked out (which it, strictly speaking, doesn't), but there are still several other things that cause bunching.

Once again, something that mech lists don't care about anymore than they did before.

pretre wrote:If you have 40 guys who can die, chances are they are closest and die first. Plus you can LOS still.

Precise strike.
Still LOS.

I don't get what you're talking about here, honestly. Characters are obliged to run forward as fast as they can. Meanwhile, it's not terribly difficult to see an enemy character with your own.

Furthermore, the other 40 guys aren't proper abblative wounds. As characters need to rush forward, they're going to be in the front row after a round or two of combat. Plus, you're not going to be able to have an entire 40-dude squad literally in base to base contact. You will only be able to keep the characters safe until the rest of the front row is gone, which, against small units, won't be very many.

pretre wrote:Power weapons just got worse.
And better. Bonus Strength for someone who strikes last anyways? time to model Power Axes.

Power axes can't kill something with a power fist before it gets to strike. Power axes are a consolation prize stuck on a now otherwise worthless unit.

pretre wrote:If you put the aegis on the halfway point of the board, that's a lot of cover for your movement. 90 points for either fearless or FNP isn't a lot. Add in a sisters squad for 140 points and you got better.

Vehicles hide behind aegis lines just as well as infantry. Except better, because you have more flexibility with the aegis.

pretre wrote:Jacob gives +1 Att, FNP and rerolls on the charge. That's a pretty good deal.

Which means you can take exactly one power blob, and it still suffers from all the other problems that make blobs non-viable.

Ailaros wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Vehicles can't even contest anymore, that is SO HUGE. And 5/6 of the book missions are objective based.

But it doesn't matter until the end of the game. The relative advantage of mech lists turns 1-6 more than outweigh the problem of having to get someone out at the last minute to contest something.

That's the whole point of mech lists, really. You kill off everything seriously threatening of your opponents by turn 3. This just became a much easier feat to accomplish.

Foot army offense starts on Turn 1 now. The extra range, lack of ubiquitous cover, and hull points means many kinds of foot troops are doing damage immediately.

Mech army offense doesn't effectively start until you get out of your vehicles. Transports are not even faster at delivering shooting troops anymore, as shooting troops can walk just as far as a vehicle moves if they want to shoot in the same turn.

How is moving 18" in one turn not faster than a foot army?

DarknessEternal wrote:Mech army offense doesn't effectively start until you get out of your vehicles.

What?

Last I checked, leafblower guard was good because of the amount of long-range up-front damage it could dish out, and were never encumbered by the vets inside needing to get out to be effective. Likewise, razorspam was all about up-front damage. Most razor players I saw never voluntarily disembarked.

That they now have to on turn 5 is going to make little difference in how people play mech lists.

Ailaros wrote:But now the unit doesn't get cover, only the models do. That means that shots taken from oblique angles are now much, much more likely to have at least a couple models out of cover every time they shoot (rather than the roughly 0).

Sure, but cover is still easy to get.

And then you're neither moving nor shooting. It does ameliorate some of the problems of holding objectives, but not all of them, and in the meantime you've got to make the squad worthless.

You can set your defense line up at the halfway mark of the board and get cover as long as your opponent is between you and him. Not to mention ruins and all those other things are out on the board.

Not against barrage weapons. Or against anything with precise shot (I don't get where this idea that characters will always be out of LOS is coming from).

Not Line of Sight. Look out Sir! Put your important guys in the middle of the squad. Magic.

I don't get what you're talking about here, honestly. Characters are obliged to run forward as fast as they can. Meanwhile, it's not terribly difficult to see an enemy character with your own.

Look Out Sir!

Furthermore, the other 40 guys aren't proper abblative wounds. As characters need to rush forward, they're going to be in the front row after a round or two of combat. Plus, you're not going to be able to have an entire 40-dude squad literally in base to base contact. You will only be able to keep the characters safe until the rest of the front row is gone, which, against small units, won't be very many.

The characters have to move to be in base if they can. If they c an't make it, they just try. If there's 20 guys already surrounding the opponent, they don't displace those guys to get into base.

Power axes can't kill something with a power fist before it gets to strike. Power axes are a consolation prize stuck on a now otherwise worthless unit.

Except higher strength and AP2 are both a bonus. I'm not sweating PF on my blobs.

Vehicles hide behind aegis lines just as well as infantry. Except better, because you have more flexibility with the aegis.

Vehicles can't G2G for a 2+ cover save.

pretre wrote:Jacob gives +1 Att, FNP and rerolls on the charge. That's a pretty good deal.

Which means you can take exactly one power blob, and it still suffers from all the other problems that make blobs non-viable.

You can take more power blobs, just that one is better than the rest. Kyrinov gives out 6" fearless if you want somethign to help everyone.

Ailaros wrote:
This is probably the one real disadvantage that mech lists, but you'll have to forgive me if I think it's one that's deserved. Scoring from inside transports never seemed all that fair.

Another thing I'd like to note is that mech lists, at least for guard, just got better against assault.

Think about it. You shoot at the guys who are assaulting. Then you shoot overwatch when they assault your transport. Then you shoot them again. Then you overwatch them AGAIN when they assault the guys inside. If you're talking about plasma vets in a chimera, this is a ludicrous amount of firepower levied against assaulters.

Precisely. I had a game versus a Nid player. Tyrant assaults chimera, eats a wound the overwatching Melta Vets. He pops the vehicle, and in the following turn assaults the contents. He fails his charge distance, but eats another wound from overwatch. The next assault phase he eats another wound from overwatch, but manages to successfully assault. After splatting a few vets, he was killed by a handful of krak grenades. 155 pts of Melta Vets roflpwned 240ish points of Hive Tyrant. It probably would have been even more one sided had they been plasma vets.

Ailaros wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ailaros wrote: There's no way you're giving an entire 50-man unit cover (or really even a majority),

Aegis Defense Line. Add Uriah Jacobus for FNP for the Blob.

Fitting 50 dudes in a single aegis?

I hate to exaggerate, but...

While trying to hide a 50-man blob behind an Aegis Line would be problematic (actually suicidal, evidenced by the above photo!), I have so far had a lot of success hiding static x4 heavy weapons teams behind it with Creed's CCS (and either Kell or a Lord Commissar to give ld10 orders hiding behind a Quad Gun). They are not too bunched up. That's 30 models. Anymore than that then they could be quite easily templated to death.
While you are right that having an entire army as a static gunline like this would make objective grabbing extremely difficult, I have found that combining the above with a few infantry squads and some Vets in Chimeras make up for the static gunline part of the army camping behind the Aegis. These guys can grab objectives while that Gunline behind the Aegis can dish out the long-range firepower and Leman Russ's can support the advancing Chimeras.
So I don't think footlists are completely dead. Infact, with the Aegis Defence Line and the fact that lascannons and autocannons are now better and more effective than ever (ap2 +1 and glancing to death vehicles) i'd say that heavy weapons squads got better IF (and this is vital) they are combined with some mobility and mechanised elements.

If anything I think hybrid lists will be more common place. Why? Because pure footlists have been nerfed so heavily. This I think will cause a lot of ex-footlist players who don't want to sell their souls to pure mech-lists will go hybrid instead.

ThatguyovertherePrecisely wrote:. I had a game versus a Nid player. Tyrant assaults chimera, eats a wound the overwatching Melta Vets. He pops the vehicle, and in the following turn assaults the contents. He fails his charge distance, but eats another wound from overwatch. The next assault phase he eats another wound from overwatch, but manages to successfully assault. After splatting a few vets, he was killed by a handful of krak grenades. 155 pts of Melta Vets roflpwned 240ish points of Hive Tyrant. It probably would have been even more one sided had they been plasma vets.

1) The Nid player should have know better and killed it with shooting before assaulting. Then he could have assaulted the turn it popped.

2) Failing that charge roll is very hard to belive if the unit was in the chimera. Worse case you would have had to move, then run to get way from him. Then he would have had to move and roll less on 2D6 then you rolled on 1D6. I would not count on that happening often.

3) Anyone who assults meltabomb vets with an MC is not that good a player. That is what gaunts are for and they have just as good a chance to pop the Chimera now (assuming AG and at least 10 guants) as the Tyrant.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

5+ isn't it? Or do vehicles benefit from terrain types as well?

Vehicles have always gotten the same cover save as the Terrain type giving them the cover save, it was that way in 5th and its that way in 6th.

Only difference is now you only need to be 25% obscured to get the cover save instead of 50%


Aegis defense lines give a 4+ cover save.

Generic Area Terrain gives 5+, but Ruins and such give 4+. Fortifications give a 3+ cover.

If a Tank is hiding behind/in an Ironbark Forest it will have a 3+ cover save.

Gloomfang wrote:[
1) The Nid player should have know better and killed it with shooting before assaulting. Then he could have assaulted the turn it popped.

2) Failing that charge roll is very hard to belive if the unit was in the chimera. Worse case you would have had to move, then run to get way from him. Then he would have had to move and roll less on 2D6 then you rolled on 1D6. I would not count on that happening often.

3) Anyone who assults meltabomb vets with an MC is not that good a player. That is what gaunts are for and they have just as good a chance to pop the Chimera now (assuming AG and at least 10 guants) as the Tyrant.

1) He was attempting to pop all the chimeras as fast as possible so that the vet squads would be out in the open. His Tryant's shooting for that turn was directed at another Chimera, which he successfully popped.

2) He moved his Tyrant further away from the squad, in an attempt to get side shots at another chimera, which he also successfully popped along with shots from a Dakkafex and a Pod.

3) They weren't Meltabomb vets, they just had standard krak grenades.



I didn't mean to make him out to be a bad player, his actions made more sense when not considered in a vacuum.

How was he assaulting units different from what he shot at?