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pretre wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Fitting 50 dudes in a single aegis?

You don't have to be IN it. You have to have it between you and the enemy.

I've been playing it as line of sight. So a flyer can see over it as long as the figure is not tucked right up against the wall. And, from personal experience, you can't get all 50 guardsmen including 5 autocannon bases tucked right up against the wall. And if you do, you are subject to blast and flamer templates, as Ailaros said. Doesn't mean I don't think the 50 man is viable, because I do, but you have to be realistic about the shortcomings.

pretre wrote:

You don't need challenges. Precision strike, new wound allocation, and compulsory character movement will be good enough.

Umm. Even with compulsary character movement and precision strike, you still have LOS and you still have 40 other guys.

I mean, don't let me break up the pity parade, but foot guard got better not worse.

I think that for foot guard to be viable you need allies. Ailaros doesn't want to use them, or at least to be forced to use them. I want to use allies, and since I do my foot guard list seems quite strong. However, to be fair, I am using them as a gunline, not an assault unit that moves across the board. I never liked that strategy in the first place, so I don't miss it. And I agree that trying to use guard infantry as an assault unit is far harder in 6th.

bb

So the Footguard behind the Aegis are vulnerable to Flamers and Blast weapons(but only blasts that are Barrage)

What else is new?

beerbeard wrote:I've been playing it as line of sight. So a flyer can see over it as long as the figure is not tucked right up against the wall. And, from personal experience, you can't get all 50 guardsmen including 5 autocannon bases tucked right up against the wall. And if you do, you are subject to blast and flamer templates, as Ailaros said. Doesn't mean I don't think the 50 man is viable, because I do, but you have to be realistic about the shortcomings.

Yes, a flyer or elevated target can see over it, of course.

Ailaros wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Vehicles can't even contest anymore, that is SO HUGE. And 5/6 of the book missions are objective based.

But it doesn't matter until the end of the game. The relative advantage of mech lists turns 1-6 more than outweigh the problem of having to get someone out at the last minute to contest something.

That's the whole point of mech lists, really. You kill off everything seriously threatening of your opponents by turn 3. This just became a much easier feat to accomplish.

Games are won/lost in the last turn. I can have three models left and literally killed nothing. If I'm in the right spot and you're not, I win.

And tabling from shooting is easier, I'm not ready yet to say it's easy. And an army that is tooled up to do such a thing is going to be weak in their own troops. So if I can snipe their troops out, and play evasive and hide with mine, they are going to have a very hard time winning. Such a list needs to table all the time do well. Yes it's possible, but it won't happen often enough to succeed in most tournament formats.

And we haven't even taken into account how much shooting people are going to waste trying to hit MCs and flyers. Just because fire out put goes up doesn't neccesarily mean shooting casualties go up.

Ailaros wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:But the assault phase got more forgiving for most infantry, and utterly crippled tanks.

What? Assault got more forgiving? Where is this coming from?

As for tanks, they were already terrible against strong units at close ranges. This hasn't changed all that much. "Crippled" implied that they were good and now they're not.

Nerf to power weapons protects models in 2+ armor.
LOS protects characters.
Buff to ID nerfs fists.
Removal of fearless wounds saves umpteen models every assault phase.
Now that you can't escort units off the table, if I get away from an assault I can regroup right away instead of running off the table.
If I'm in assault with something I can't hurt I can try and run away.
Random charges means there is a reasonable chance I won't actually die in assault because they'll miss their needed distance.
No first turn assaults, no assaults off reserves.

I'm not saying assault got better, far from it. I'm saying quite a few less models are going to die in the assault phase.

Except for tanks, which will die from a sharp glare. And that was not the case before. If I moved over 6, there was only a slim change anything short of scarabs or an MC with a lot of attacks was going to bring me down. That was all the more powerful when I could zoom 12" blow smoke to screen me in shooting and know that I have a 90%+ chance of surviing the assault phase to contest a quarter or objective.

Now a tac squad charging, on the math, will wreck a rhino/chimera no matter how far it moved. That is VERY different than it was before.

Ailaros wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: But saying that infantry armies are dead is a massive overstatement.

So, I'll repeat again why power blobs are dead, but things in there aren't exclusive to power blobs. In the case of a slugga green tide, they now have to deal with fleet no longer allowing you to assault, random assault ranges, no hidden klaw, better rapid fire, no +I from furious charge, and overwatch. And that's including cover getting worse, and wound allocation killing you out of assault range, as well as things in the linked article.

Shooty foot lists don't suffer from several of these problems, but now we're talking about a static foot gunline, which is a pretty weak place to start from.

I think assault blobs aren't as good as they used to be (though not dead). Shooty blobs are mean now IMO. If you ally a rune priest with divination, and forget the commisars. Who wants to be stubborn? I want to run away, auto regroup and shoot you all over again. Plus FRFSR out to 24" all the time adds up.

And your power klaws can still be hidden, with smart deployment/movement. You just need to be concious of it now. It's not a given that you need to take 30 wounds before the klaw gets hit.

It sounds like a lot of the shifts you are takling about come from assault nerfs and shooting buffs. I agree assaulting in general took a serious blow. That is independent of infantry vs tanks. Infantry stil have plenty of advantages, and tanks got their own helping of disadvantages to offset the increased fire out put.

I think you're making a big deal out of something that is generally too early to really see. Further, you're making a lot of assumptions about mech lists and I don't think you have much experience playing them (as in running the list). You're missing several key disadvantages.

The entire point of the transports was that my scoring troops could not be shot or assaulted until the transport was destroyed. Every single objective I ever claimed was claimed by a squad either inside a transport, or a squad whose transport was destroyed. Now, I have to weather 2 turns (on average) of shooting and assaults if I want to claim an objective. Going from 0 turns of being shot at to 2 is a big difference. Sure, the transport can block some LOS, but since transports go down easier this is less reliable than you think.

Now, vehicles can't contest on the last turn of the game. Know how many games this came up in? Every close game. This was a huge boost, being able to shove something 12-18" inches on the last turn and deny your opponent those key points.

Vehicles have it much worse in assault than they used to. Getting hit easier and getting your rear armor smacked is a bad combination - now everything with rear armor 10 can be glanced to death by S4 marines... gaunts... orks... etc. This wasn't even possible before, and now you scrap an av 10 vehicle for every 18 attacks (on average, I'm away from books right now so my math may be off). Know any vehicles with av 10 rear armor? Maybe not 'crippled', but it makes a difference.

Necrons. The fact that you didn't even acknowledge their destructive power against mech brings your perspective in question. Any day of the week a Necron player would rather see a mech list than foot spam, and considering they're the FotM (a concept you seem to hate so much) this is not a point to be ignored.

Try a few games and see before you preach the end of the world.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Games are won/lost in the last turn. I can have three models left and literally killed nothing. If I'm in the right spot and you're not, I win.

Certainly, but you can't ignore the entire rest of the game up until the last movement phase.

For most of the game, you're able to play your mech list in the exact same way that you were playing it before. There's now just one small change at the very end (assuming the transports survived that long, which was never certain, even in 5th).

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Now a tac squad charging, on the math, will wreck a rhino/chimera no matter how far it moved. That is VERY different than it was before.

But let's be real here. The transport is going to get shot at by autocannons turns 1-3, and it's then going to be shot at by plasma turns 1-3 and by melta turns 2-3. If, by some miracle, a tac squad has a living transport in range, then it's still attacking rear armor, just like before. There is just one variable that has changed (the odds of hitting), while everything else is basically the exact same as before. And it's mostly moot given that transports will likely be killed in the shooting phase before close combat ever hits.

And the guys inside get to overwatch when the transport is assaulted.

Plus, multi-assaulting got a lot worse, so you don't need to worry about that as much as well.

Transports were always weak against assault in those relatively rare times you'd have to bother with it. Tac squads charging chimeras doesn't seem like such a dire threat that it will push people into taking foot lists.

Ricter wrote:The entire point of the transports was that my scoring troops could not be shot or assaulted until the transport was destroyed.

The point of transports has always been to focus your killing power better than foot lists. That it gave some durability was largely canceled by the fragility of the transports themselves, and the fact that you had to take fewer infantry models to bring them.

Ricter wrote:Every single objective I ever claimed was claimed by a squad either inside a transport, or a squad whose transport was destroyed. Now, I have to weather 2 turns (on average) of shooting and assaults if I want to claim an objective.

In this case, mech lists are brought down to the level that foot lists were and still are operating at. Even if things were worse than before in this regard, they're not now worse than foot lists.

Ricter wrote:Necrons

That's a single army. A single army, which, I would note, can also do some very, very ugly things to foot lists.

Also, to tackle the cries of "look out, sir!". That's only on a 4+ for non-independent characters. 4+ is not the same as hidden. Not by a long shot.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
1) He was attempting to pop all the chimeras as fast as possible so that the vet squads would be out in the open. His Tryant's shooting for that turn was directed at another Chimera, which he successfully popped.
2) He moved his Tyrant further away from the squad, in an attempt to get side shots at another chimera, which he also successfully popped along with shots from a Dakkafex and a Pod.
3) They weren't Meltabomb vets, they just had standard krak grenades.

I didn't mean to make him out to be a bad player, his actions made more sense when not considered in a vacuum.

Uhmmm 1 and 2 are both against the rules. You can only charge at the unit you shoot. So he made 2 illicit shooting/charge attempts. Also if he wanted to pop chimeras then he should have been doing that and not messing around with the troops inside. And if he was doing it RAW then he would have oppened up with the guns before charging and probably taken out a lot of the unit before he charged. Would have lived too.

3) My mistake. I read meltavets as meltabombs.

And finally your point about how mech is much better includes at least 3 transports getting blown up in 2 turns?

Regardless of the legality of this particular, the trend is still true. Mech lists were already powerful because they guaranteed a couple of rounds of shooting against assault.

Now they still have that exactly the same as before, except now they also get a couple of overwatches thrown in for free.

2 shots out the hatch aren't going to make or break your assault when you have 50 guys.

Commissar-based blob guard is dead, sure. Commissars are just too fleshy, and sargents die too fast in CC.
I envisage 30-man blobs to act as buffers/roadblocks, supported by SWS/PCSs with special weapons

at 1500pts something like:

CCS - lascannon, plasma *2, MOTF - 130

PCS - melta*4 - 70
Infantry+lascannon*3 - 210
SWS melta*3 - 65
Platoon total - 345

PCS - melta*4 - 70
Infantry+lascannon*3 - 210
SWS melta*3 - 65
SWS melta*3 - 65
Platoon total - 345

PCS - melta*4 - 70
Infantry+lascannon*3 - 210
SWS melta*3 - 65
Platoon total - 345

Ogryns*6 - 270

10 lascannons, 24 melta guns, 2 lascannons and 144 wounds
The blobs hold the line and wreck stuff with lascannons, while the SWSs do some damage.
And the ogryns run up to the first thing that's stupid enough to charge you and bash them on the head until they die

pretre wrote:2 shots out the hatch aren't going to make or break your assault when you have 50 guys.

No, but the point here is that they're not substantially worse than they were before, and they're not worse than foot lists here.

Though I'd note that a battlewagon full of burnas might make a bit of a dent against a mob.

Ailaros wrote:

pretre wrote:2 shots out the hatch aren't going to make or break your assault when you have 50 guys.

No, but the point here is that they're not substantially worse than they were before, and they're not worse than foot lists here.

Though I'd note that a battlewagon full of burnas might make a bit of a dent against a mob.

If you're seriously thinking of charging a BW full of burnas, you have bigger problems than the overwatch fire.

Ailaros wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:I think your not giving enough credit to the effect 50 man units have on a situation. 10 marines shooting bolters at 24" at a IG blob will kill ~4.5 guard a turn. That means, without any return fire, they will kill that blob off in 1.5 games.

A 50-man guard blob, with no upgrades whatsoever, costs just shy of 300 points. It's not exactly fair to compare to a tac squad. More importantly, assuming that all 10 of them have boltguns for some reason, they're killing 9 guardsmen a turn, not 4.5.

How does that maths work? 10 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, no save = 4.444 casualties, not 9.

Mech can do anything foot lists can do but faster and with whatever protection and firepower a low point transport gets you, Eldar excluded (their transports are too expensive and flimsy now). Even at their most expensive, transports don't really take away much in terms of points for the mobility and protection they impart. Whatever frailty you imagine transports have, troops generally still suffer more. Do you honestly believe your tacs or guardsmen would do better walking up the table taking full fire rather than having a AV11-12 vehicle to hide in or even behind? Cover saves are no easier to get for infantry but much easier for vehicles in 5th. And they are mobile cover!

As to HP making AV 11+ more fragile, you need to seriously look at some math. What it did was make dedicated AT shooting more reliable. It also eliminated stunlocking vehicles. AP3, for example, got much worse at eliminating AV13+.

For assaulting, transports may die easy in CC, but the round of firing you get is priceless- they died pretty easy before in CC before and you got no shooting (and got trapped inside easier).

And as to Necrons, their fliers/shooting will demolish foot just as easy, if not easier, than vehicles. At least for armies like IG the vehicles add 3 more S6 shots a piece to bring them down with.

Ailaros wrote:

Ricter wrote:The entire point of the transports was that my scoring troops could not be shot or assaulted until the transport was destroyed.

The point of transports has always been to focus your killing power better than foot lists. That it gave some durability was largely canceled by the fragility of the transports themselves, and the fact that you had to take fewer infantry models to bring them.

Perhaps this was true for other mech armies, but as a mech SM player, referring to what damage tactical squads caused as 'killing power' seems like a pretty good joke. That's what the tanks, skimmers and their ilk were for. Admittedly, I did run termies in land raiders as well, but I ran far more transports for simply moving tactical marines around.

Ailaros wrote:

Ricter wrote:Every single objective I ever claimed was claimed by a squad either inside a transport, or a squad whose transport was destroyed. Now, I have to weather 2 turns (on average) of shooting and assaults if I want to claim an objective.

In this case, mech lists are brought down to the level that foot lists were and still are operating at. Even if things were worse than before in this regard, they're not now worse than foot lists.

Gloomfang wrote:
Uhmmm 1 and 2 are both against the rules. You can only charge at the unit you shoot. So he made 2 illicit shooting/charge attempts. Also if he wanted to pop chimeras then he should have been doing that and not messing around with the troops inside. And if he was doing it RAW then he would have oppened up with the guns before charging and probably taken out a lot of the unit before he charged. Would have lived too.

3) My mistake. I read meltavets as meltabombs.

And finally your point about how mech is much better includes at least 3 transports getting blown up in 2 turns?

Do what now?

I don't have the rule book with me, but I was under the impression that if you destroyed the target that you were shooting at you were free to assault another target. Am I wrong?

I may have missed something when I read over the rules for 6th.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Do what now?

I don't have the rule book with me, but I was under the impression that if you destroyed the target that you were shooting at you were free to assault another target. Am I wrong?

I may have missed something when I read over the rules for 6th.

I am assuming that the Chimara was a dedicated transport. The Transport and the unit inside of it are considered one unit if I am not mistaken. I don't have the rule book in front of me either. I will have to check.

Gloomfang wrote:

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Do what now?

I don't have the rule book with me, but I was under the impression that if you destroyed the target that you were shooting at you were free to assault another target. Am I wrong?

I may have missed something when I read over the rules for 6th.

I am assuming that the Chimara was a dedicated transport. The Transport and the unit inside of it are considered one unit if I am not mistaken. I don't have the rule book in front of me either. I will have to check.

Yeah, you have to charge the occupants of a transport if you blew it up from shooting.

Exergy wrote:The new assault rules on vehilces make a lot of difference though.

Hitting Dreadnaughts on WS with grenades has made walkers all but unuseable.

Hitting Skimmers on 3+ is going to kill them.

Rhinos and Razorbacks are not much worse off though.

Not really true for all walkers. Dreadnaughts have av12 13 is iron clad, with Granada you get 1 attack per model equipped with them, so for 10 marines that's 5 hits, you need a 6 to glance with a Krack grenade against av12 and you can't touch ave 13 so to will likely not do any damage or at the least will go a couple of rounds. Haywire are obviously different but I expect will be nerfed either in a later FAQ or new codex.

Pony_law wrote:

Exergy wrote:The new assault rules on vehilces make a lot of difference though.

Hitting Dreadnaughts on WS with grenades has made walkers all but unuseable.

Hitting Skimmers on 3+ is going to kill them.

Rhinos and Razorbacks are not much worse off though.

Not really true for all walkers. Dreadnaughts have av12 13 is iron clad, with Granada you get 1 attack per model equipped with them, so for 10 marines that's 5 hits, you need a 6 to glance with a Krack grenade against av12 and you can't touch ave 13 so to will likely not do any damage or at the least will go a couple of rounds. Haywire are obviously different but I expect will be nerfed either in a later FAQ or new codex.

Most likely not, as they have been listed in the BRB.
And yeah, haywire grenades are nasty. I lost a monolith to 10 wyches with haywires. It wasn't pretty.

Ricter wrote:Sure, except mech lists are paying points for it.

True, but you also get other stuff for what you're spending the points for.

Ricter wrote:Overwatch out of firing points? You realize if they were on foot, they'd all get to fire, right?

You missed the point, though.

With a foot list, you get a chance to shoot, then you get a chance to overwatch, and then you're stuck in close combat.

With a mech list, you get the chance to shoot, then you get a chance to overwatch, then you get the chance to shoot AGAIN, and then get to overwatch AGAIN. Literally twice as much shooting.

And that's overlooking the fact that in that second turn of shooting, the other stuff in your army can also target that close combat baddie, whereas in the foot list, they wouldn't be able to as they can't shoot into close combat.

Ricter wrote:The CC change is drastic.

Drastic but insignificant. Vehicles were always killed by shooting much more than by assaulting, and that is only going to be more true as the few people who had proper assaulty armies shed them in favor of ones that shoot better.

I mean, the difference between what sniper rifles could do to rhinos in 5th and what they can do in 6th is also drastic, but that doesn't mean that you're going to suddenly start losing droves of rhinos to sniper fire.

It's a classic case of "better" still not actually being "good".

jmurph wrote:Mech can do anything foot lists can do but faster and with whatever protection and firepower a low point transport gets you, Eldar excluded (their transports are too expensive and flimsy now). Even at their most expensive, transports don't really take away much in terms of points for the mobility and protection they impart. Whatever frailty you imagine transports have, troops generally still suffer more. Do you honestly believe your tacs or guardsmen would do better walking up the table taking full fire rather than having a AV11-12 vehicle to hide in or even behind? Cover saves are no easier to get for infantry but much easier for vehicles in 5th. And they are mobile cover!

As to HP making AV 11+ more fragile, you need to seriously look at some math. What it did was make dedicated AT shooting more reliable. It also eliminated stunlocking vehicles. AP3, for example, got much worse at eliminating AV13+.

For assaulting, transports may die easy in CC, but the round of firing you get is priceless- they died pretty easy before in CC before and you got no shooting (and got trapped inside easier).

And as to Necrons, their fliers/shooting will demolish foot just as easy, if not easier, than vehicles. At least for armies like IG the vehicles add 3 more S6 shots a piece to bring them down with.

AV13+ did not get better vs your typical ap3 str8 shooting. It got much worse.

Everyone seems to be forgetting the one most common form of cover that vehicles used, smoke, got extremely nerfed.

I think transport vehicles might work out evenly, if all you are transporting are shooty infantry. And then that can be up yo the dice gods.

Passengers are HEAVILY penalized in 6th.

I think some shooty platforms are going to be ok, namely russes and in particular demolishers.

I'm fairly certain that mech is going to take a step back or two in 6th...

imweasel wrote:AV13+ did not get better vs your typical ap3 str8 shooting. It got much worse.

What? I think this is another hair split, here.

Missile launchers were terrible against heavy vehicles, fishing for 6's against the rare 13's, and only glancing the heavy stuff. Missile launchers are still only doing anything to AV14 on 6's, just like before, except now you don't get the gratitude of being able to knock weapons off or stun or immobilize them. Against AV13, you're now half as likely to cause a vehicle wrecked result with a penetrating hit.

I don't see where the "much worse" comes from.

imweasel wrote:I'm fairly certain that mech is going to take a step back or two in 6th...

... in favor of what?

Ailaros wrote:

imweasel wrote:I'm fairly certain that mech is going to take a step back or two in 6th...

... in favor of what?

Probably more balanced hybrid lists, as is what a lot of people thought to begin with...

But why include inferior foot units? How does diluting a mech list with worse stuff make the list better as a whole?

It doesn't make sense to knee-jerk away from the best option just because it got slightly worse, absolutely speaking, than it was before.

Ailaros wrote:But why include inferior foot units? How does diluting a mech list with worse stuff make the list better as a whole?

Because on foot my Tau Fire Warriors can pump out 12 S5 shots up to an effective range of 36", or 24 shots up to an effective range of 21". In a Devilfish they can fire zero S5 shots.

Does this mean I take zero Devilfish? No, because they provide extra mobility and mobile cover for other units in my army. Does it mean I don't bother loading all of my Fire Warrior teams in them? Yes because that means I can actually use some of that firepower I'm paying the points for whilst also saving 80 points per team which is not riding them to spend on more damaging firepower.

Moving and shooting rapid fire weapons improves the damage of infantry in this ed. A marines effective range is 18" to rapid fire and 30" single shot, instead of 18" rapid OR 24" single 12" rapid. So marines and fire warriors and guard can be alot more mobile and still dish out firepower, but also dish out more firepower as a whole- before, if you deployed 24.000000000001" away from my marines, i would 1) move up 2) you shoot me 3) i get to fire a single shot. Now i get to move up and shoot, cop the return volley and move up and shoot again. I think the humble plasmagun is the best recipient of this buff, with its +1 on the damage chart, new range and high strength low AP to handle the new terminator craze and F/MC's.

Vehicles are... different, its true. I see the shift going away from "i need weapons to break transports" to "i need weapons to break tanks". Transports are softer, but tanks are more deadly, because you can't silence the guns with a glance, and you can't choose which weapon you take off with a destroyed result. So now that Leman russ has a 25% chance of losing its main cannon if it has full sponsons, for example, instead of a 100% chance. Shooty vehicles are more shooty, but on the other hand slightly easier to kill. But they generally come with some of the best weapons a codex can take, so they are still highly valuable.

Ailaros wrote:
What? I think this is another hair split, here.

No need to split hairs. AV13 is much more reliably wrecked without getting lucky with missiles. It's not as easy to prevent it from shooting, but it's much more reliably [i]wrecked[/].

Ailaros wrote:Missile launchers were terrible against heavy vehicles, fishing for 6's against the rare 13's, and only glancing the heavy stuff. Missile launchers are still only doing anything to AV14 on 6's, just like before, except now you don't get the gratitude of being able to knock weapons off or stun or immobilize them. Against AV13, you're now half as likely to cause a vehicle wrecked result with a penetrating hit.

You cannot get a wrecked result, which is what you want, from a penetrating hit. You get explosions which will still allow units to assault. Missiles are astronomically better vs av14 in 6th ed. I no longer need to keep shooting at it in hopes of getting a lucky damage result on top of getting lucky to simply get a glance. Now I just need to get the glances. Assault vehicles won't even save you from this. DE might as well just go all shooty.

Ailaros wrote:I don't see where the "much worse" comes from.

I get results that prevent you from assaulting and hopefully even shooting.

Ailaros wrote:... in favor of what?

More than likely, drop pods mixed with foot slogging gun lines.

Jihallah wrote:Moving and shooting rapid fire weapons improves the damage of infantry in this ed.

But it also improves the damage of guys in transports as well. Not being able to disembark with the transport moving so fast, it certainly is a real relative advantage here, I suppose.

Jihallah wrote:I see the shift going away from "i need weapons to break transports" to "i need weapons to break tanks".

Certainly this is true. Heavier tanks will be fielded more than before, but if the things most likely to back up tanks are transports, there will certainly still be a lot of long-range anti-tank. There might be a shift to things more like lascannons, but those are still good against transports as well. They may cost more, but now you don't need to spend as many points on things to handle the transports.

imweasel wrote:No need to split hairs. AV13 is much more reliably wrecked without getting lucky with missiles. It's not as easy to prevent it from shooting, but it's much more reliably [i]wrecked[/].

Yes, it is easier to wreck heavy tanks, but much harder to do anything else. Stunned results suck to deal with. Now you really rather don't.

imweasel wrote:Missiles are astronomically better vs av14 in 6th ed.

Better, but still not good. Missile launchers are still terrible against AV14, regardless of how much better they may have become.

Ailaros wrote:You missed the point, though.

With a foot list, you get a chance to shoot, then you get a chance to overwatch, and then you're stuck in close combat.

With a mech list, you get the chance to shoot, then you get a chance to overwatch, then you get the chance to shoot AGAIN, and then get to overwatch AGAIN. Literally twice as much shooting.

No I didn't. I brought that up in the very same paragraph, you just cut out the relevant text. See here. Not as verbose as yours, sure, but the same point.

Ricter wrote: I mean, I guess you're technically right, as you can't purchase the ability, but your implication that it's good or important is overblown. The advantage of transports in assault is that it gives the squad an extra shooting phase. Overwatch is overhyped for most units.

Ailaros wrote:Drastic but insignificant. Vehicles were always killed by shooting much more than by assaulting, and that is only going to be more true as the few people who had proper assaulty armies shed them in favor of ones that shoot better.

Insignificant is probably underestimating the potency of this, but you seem to be a fan of extreme categorization so I'll just agree to disagree on this.