Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Wait a sec, just a thought here. What if the Archon had FNP?
He fails the save but passes his FNP test. The Wound is discarded and treated as if it was saved. Would he still lose the Shadow Field?

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I figured it was a similar situation.

Do you have to fail a save...yes. Without it then you wouldn't ever need Fortune. Lets throw out the shadow field for a moment. If you have a normal guardian who is fortuned and you fail a save, you would get to reroll it through fortune correct? If you pass the reroll then you don't take the wound and essentially ignore the effects from failing the save. Even though you both passed and failed a save the Guardian doesn't die. Why? Because you got to reroll the save. Now bring back in the shadowfield. You take the wound and fail the save. Now you reroll the failed save via Fortune and you pass. (Unless it's a Krak Missile or Warboss power Klaw those always seem to fail ) You again would ignore the failed save otherwise you have to take all the penalties not just the ones that you choose and that would make the power worthless since you would both pass and fail but still take the wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for FNP yes because you loose the SF because you failed the save on the SF, but FNP lets you specifically attempt to save the wound.

Happyjew wrote:Wait a sec, just a thought here. What if the Archon had FNP?
He fails the save but passes his FNP test. The Wound is discarded and treated as if it was saved. Would he still lose the Shadow Field?

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I figured it was a similar situation.

FNP isn't a re-roll, or technically a save, as it is taken after saves are made, so the field would be lost.

This is one of those circular rules arguments where the two rules conflict. Decide with your opponent beforehand or dice it off. The shadowfield is specifically worded to drop after a failed save for a reason.

Allowing a fortune reroll to take away that negative aspect of the shadowfield is a gamey thing to do in the first place and does in fact run counter to the way the field rule is worded.

The easiest way to deal with this combo is null zone. Fortune can not be used to reroll the failed null zone forced reroll. I watched a guy at our gaming group turn completely red when that happened to him. It was funny. I think his lord ID's to the first volley of assault cannon fire he was hit with.

Edit: Deleted.

I would say that it does drop, as the save is failed the field then drops. I am not sure however on whether or not the re-roll is taken on the shadowfield or his base armour.

As for people using twinlinked weapons to shoot twice, that is actually what you are doing. RAI it doesn't work for blast templates, RAW it lets you shoot two templates. As for normal guns you are in fact getting two shots if you miss the first. The fact that you need a miss to get the re-roll means that the first shot would have had no effect anyways, and then the second shot has a chance to hit or miss afterwards.

So I would say that yes, his field drops.

olympia wrote:The wording for shadowfield states that if you fail a save its gone. The wording for Fortune requires you to fail a save to get a reroll. I wish people would engage with this rather than grasping onto a boss pole.

It has been engaged. Your attempt at pretending the first roll has any effect on the game makes rerolls either functionally useless, or generate more shots.

Guess what makes sense, AND follows the rules - the *second* roll counts, which given you only have one roll the first one *cannot* count.

Kevlar wrote:This is one of those circular rules arguments where the two rules conflict. Decide with your opponent beforehand or dice it off. The shadowfield is specifically worded to drop after a failed save for a reason.

And re-rolling a save doesn't change that.

Allowing a fortune reroll to take away that negative aspect of the shadowfield is a gamey thing to do in the first place and does in fact run counter to the way the field rule is worded.

It does not in fact run counter to the way the field rule is worded. Please present rules if you disagree.

Under re-roll on page 5 it says the second roll counts. The first roll does not count. That means you didn't fail because it doesn't count.

Ratbarf wrote:As for people using twinlinked weapons to shoot twice, that is actually what you are doing. RAI it doesn't work for blast templates, RAW it lets you shoot two templates.

False. Please quote the rules to support that assertion.
If I roll my scatter dice and get a hit, I should *always* choose to re-roll as it'd be possible for me to generate another hit.

Ratbarf wrote:As for normal guns you are in fact getting two shots if you miss the first. The fact that you need a miss to get the re-roll means that the first shot would have had no effect anyways, and then the second shot has a chance to hit or miss afterwards.

Number of Shots
Some shooting weapons fire multiple shots. Where this is the case, the number of shots a weapon fires is noted after its type.

Twin-linked weapons don't get more shots than normal ones, but they give you a better chance of hitting with them.

My Carnifex has one set of Twin Linked Devourers which are Assault 6. I roll 6 dice and get a 1, 1, 3, 5, 5, 6. I've now fired 6 shots, which is the maximum the weapon is allowed to fire.
According to you, I cannot re-roll the misses because I've fired 6 shots. Twin Linked does not give you extra shots for a weapon.

You must discard (ignore, never resolve) the first result before a re-roll. Doing otherwise breaks the rules.

wait isnt this a simple one?

You fail the save..shadow fieled goes poof!

You pick up the dice that failed the save and re-roll it, passing this time, original roll no longer exists (as was re-rolled) so field now stays.. so in effect it is both gone and still there.... schrodinger's Shadow field hahah

I'm kinda baffled at the fact that this is even being contemplated. Please state a single other reference in the game where a die is rerolled but the first roll counts for anything.

Stop overthinking things. If GW wants to prevent the 2++ 2++ save of shadowfields they will simply state that non-Codex Eldar models do not benefit from Fortune and Guide.

My Carnifex has one set of Twin Linked Devourers which are Assault 6. I roll 6 dice and get a 1, 1, 3, 5, 5, 6. I've now fired 6 shots, which is the maximum the weapon is allowed to fire.
According to you, I cannot re-roll the misses because I've fired 6 shots. Twin Linked does not give you extra shots for a weapon.

But you have in effect fired the devourer an extra three times, because the first two rolls were misses they no longer have any bearing in game turns. The fact that new to hit roll passes means that it now has bearing, hence effectively two shots. Twinlinked devourers simply means you can't hit more than 6 times, not that you can't shoot more than 6 times.

BlueDagger wrote:I'm kinda baffled at the fact that this is even being contemplated. .

I'm baffled too, but that's probably because I haveing played 40k in a long long time. Fortinue dictates that you must fail a save to get a reroll; shadowfield says that if you fail a save you lose the 2+ invuln. You RAWist can't have it both ways. Either you follow the rules as written or you continue to blather on about boss poles and bast weapons to draw RAI anaologies.

We have followed the rules as written. You;re ignoring the fact that it is the second roll that counts.

But shouldn't the model take a wound aswell then? Falied armour save = -1 Wound. As far as I can tell the only thing preventing this is the "Counts" part of the re-roll rule, but since that doesn't seem to have any effect here... what does? Also yay for the implication that I can doom a target, hit it 10 times and then deal 20 wounds!

I cant believe this is even an argument.... Sounds like someone is just trying to be ignorant.

Yep.

Claiming the first roll has ANY effect on the game means:

Boss pole never works
Neither does a Commisar
Neither does an IG Banner

... and so on.

RAW, RAI and everything else points to the first roll being ignored in a reroll. Anything else has not a single shred of support.

Ratbarf wrote:

My Carnifex has one set of Twin Linked Devourers which are Assault 6. I roll 6 dice and get a 1, 1, 3, 5, 5, 6. I've now fired 6 shots, which is the maximum the weapon is allowed to fire.
According to you, I cannot re-roll the misses because I've fired 6 shots. Twin Linked does not give you extra shots for a weapon.

But you have in effect fired the devourer an extra three times, because the first two rolls were misses they no longer have any bearing in game turns. The fact that new to hit roll passes means that it now has bearing, hence effectively two shots. Twinlinked devourers simply means you can't hit more than 6 times, not that you can't shoot more than 6 times.

Actually, the rules say (and I quoted it) that TL weapons don't get more shots.
You must ignore the first roll - can you give a single example or rule allowing you to use both?

Although, I kind of like the idea of always re-rolling my scatter dice to see where my second shot lands. Out of an Assault 1 gun.

The thing that is dinging everyone is the WORDING Of the Shadow field and the WOrding of Fortune Combo.

Shadow Field "If a save is failed the field no longer fuctions"

Fortune "after a save is faild re-roll"

Now what "breaks things is how re-rolls work in general

Model fails save

Model takes wound

or
Model Fails Save
re-roll
Model makes save
no wound

In the Arcons case

Arcon Fails save
*shadow field disapates
Re-roll
Arcon passes save
no wound

You would re-roll the 2++ but after it is resolved the Shadow field no longer works.

Note no actual RULES per se Just MY logical steps to resolve it

You're right, no actual rules.

You're making the first roll have an effect on the game. That means that, for example, a boss pole (reroll failed morale check) would never function - after all, you failed a morale check! YOU must now fall back!

This is no different. If you wish to make the first roll count, you have a) broken rules and b) made rerolls functionally useless.

I'd avoid that.

Dooley wrote:You would re-roll the 2++ but after it is resolved the Shadow field no longer works.

Note no actual RULES per se Just MY logical steps to resolve it

Except it's not logical as you're not discarding the original failure... so does he take a wound because he failed a save?

Boss pole Shadow Field

Faild LD test FAILD Shadow Field Save
re-roll w/ damage *shadow Field no longer works
re-roll pass No fall back Re-Roll
........................................... Passed No wound

The boss pole does not have a ONE TIME Fail contingency.

I get it, you are trying to DISCARD the first result because if you dont you cant apply two results to the same affect. I am NOT doing that. The first roll ISNT ignored in the case of a Shadow field becasue the rule SPECIFICALY states that "IF A SAVE IS FAILED THE FIELD IS GONE". In order to get a FOURTUNE re-roll a SAVE MUST BE FAILED. A boss pole does NOT work the same way as a Shadow Field. WE are NOT talking about Boss Poles, twin linked or Leader Ship tests. The question is about FAILING a Shadow Field save and Fourtune alowing you to re-roll it.

This is a SPECIAL situation that works DIFFERENTLY to other rules in the BRB. Citing "BOSS POLES" and "TWIN LINKED" has no bearing on the topic and in my opinion only leads to confusion and off topic discussions.

*note the CAPITALIZATION is for Emphasis not YELLING!

Irrelevant.

Boss pole triggers when you FAIL a morale check. Meaning that you MUST fall back - because you have FAILed a morale check.

Regardless of the outcome of the reroll you are falling back.

The abilities are not worded differently - they require a failed X to trigger the reroll in BOTH INSTANCES.

If you cannot see the analogy, state and we can restate it until it maeks sense.

The first roll of a reroll does not count, as the rules for a reroll tell you.

No I get it but the Boss Pole does not BREAK if you fail the LD test THAT is the CRUX of the whole argument!

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The first roll of a reroll does not count, as the rules for a reroll tell you.

Sloppy. The rules state no such thing. They state only that the second roll "counts." Clearly the first roll "counts" for something too because you have to fail it to get a reroll.

No, it isnt. That is the desired outcome by those unable to read the rules.

You are trying to claim that that first roll of a reroll "counts", i.e. it has an effect on the game beyond allowing you to reroll the dice.

That is the ONLY WAY that you can countenance a shadowfield failing - you are stating that the initial "1" still happened, despite you having rerolled the "1"

So, what we are doing is showing, by analogy, exactly what that argument leads to. Which is that rerolls are functionally useless.

We have also pointed out that, luckily, the rules dont actually allow what youre saying. When you reroll a dice it is the second roll that counts - now we know that only one dice roll matters (otherwise it would be a new roll, not a reroll - basic english here) meaning the first one *cannot count*

We fully understand what the argument is. The fact a Shadowfield "breaks" is 100% irrelevant to the ACTUAL ARGUMENT, which is the contention that the first roll of a reroll can have any effect on the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The first roll of a reroll does not count, as the rules for a reroll tell you.

Sloppy. The rules state no such thing. They state only that the second roll "counts." Clearly the first roll "counts" for something too because you have to fail it to get a reroll.

No, not at all sloppy. You are told the second roll "counts", and given you are only allowed to have a single result from a dice roll - otherwise you dont have a reroll but a "new" roll, basic English there - the first roll cannot count as a result.

We all get you dont like this combo, but you are a) making up rules and b) ignoring the consequence of those rules you are making up. Your "interpretation" makes rerolls functionally useless.

Do you agree or disagree? Given you need to apply a little consistency to this game, given your interpretation has been shown to be absurd, you have no choice but to agree.

1. Fortune requires that you fail a save.
2. A failed save loses shadowfield.

I'm not the one with reading comprehension issues.

So youre saying the model takes a wound then?

Because theyve failed a save, meaning they have suffered an unsaved wound?

How about failing a morale check in a unit with a boss pole? They fallback, because once you fail a morale check you fall back, yes?

Keep trolling.